Recovery to baseline testosterone levels

[Sanpedro93]

If I look at most texts it is described that the severity of suppression is duration and dose dependant, meaning that the higher doses result in more severe suppression and enduring hypogonadism lasting "up to 2 years" in reported cases, however it is unclear how often and if it is actually possible to result in permanent suppression. Also 19-nor steroids have been accreddited as being very severe in their effect on the hpta.

The point where I read differing opinions is that when in fortunate cases recovery occurs smoothily whether testosterone levels will ever reach the same baseline again, or that they just reach a number at which the person can function normally (the numbers are within range as opposed to hypogonadal). Certain texts such as from "the Handbook of Substance Abuse: Neurobehavioral Pharmacology" from Ralph E. Tarter seem to indicate that baseline can definentally be reached: :"in most cases the serum hormones will soon return to normal."

But when they say "normal" I question whether they actually mean the baseline of testosterone or that they reach a comfortable level but there is a drop-off from the last cycle?

I might be naive to think that there will not be adverse effects from cycling but wouldnt it be possible to recover 100% without any remaining permanent damage from a single cycle?

Thanks in advance board for the info.

 

[jesus_sanchez]

I have yet to meet, talk, or know if anyone who has cycled, induced extreme suppression and/or shut down that HASNT made a full recovery with a propper PCT. I know someone who Blasted and Cruised for 3 years straight, and did a PCT with back-to-"normal" results. Great discussion. Im eager to learn from other's experience.

 

[Sanpedro93]

Bump

 

[GreekTheBrick]

People that are 100% healthy and function properly they do recover to previous levels with proper PCT. But have in mind that all these cycles put great stress to our system and as we age there is a natural decline in test production(to be precise, as we age production of all hormones decline). So given that plus the stress from the cycles that adds up, many guys inevitably take the TRT rout

 

[Sanpedro93]

People that are 100% healthy and function properly they do recover to previous levels with proper PCT. But have in mind that all these cycles put great stress to our system and as we age there is a natural decline in test production(to be precise, as we age production of all hormones decline). So given that plus the stress from the cycles that adds up, many guys inevitably take the TRT rout

Good answer.. I agree... the longer and more often you cycle the bigger the risk youre taking

 

[Sanpedro93]

Bump

 

[BlockBuilder]

I've actually talked to plenty of guys who recovered from a proper pct until a few months off of their SERM when their test levels took a drastic dive after being off all PCT products. Test levels need to be taken after you've been off your SERM for a little while to get truly accurate results. I've heard the "but my test levels were normal after pct and I haven't cycled and I checked my test levels and they're super low now." I've heard that happen so often. Most guys start cycling again or don't give themselves enough time off their SERM to see if there's a decline post PCT.

 

[Sanpedro93]

I've actually talked to plenty of guys who recovered from a proper pct until a few months off of their SERM when their test levels took a drastic dive after being off all PCT products. Test levels need to be taken after you've been off your SERM for a little while to get truly accurate results. I've heard the "but my test levels were normal after pct and I haven't cycled and I checked my test levels and they're super low now." I've heard that happen so often. Most guys start cycling again or don't give themselves enough time off their SERM to see if there's a decline post PCT.

Ive heard this too. Pct will boost their levels way high for a while but it always drops back down and in some cases all the way down. Do you think this hpta restart failure occurs after prolonged use (multiple cycles) with suppresive 19-nor steroids or do you think it will occur with a single moderate testosterone cycle alike?

 

[GreekTheBrick]

I've actually talked to plenty of guys who recovered from a proper pct until a few months off of their SERM when their test levels took a drastic dive after being off all PCT products. Test levels need to be taken after you've been off your SERM for a little while to get truly accurate results. I've heard the "but my test levels were normal after pct and I haven't cycled and I checked my test levels and they're super low now." I've heard that happen so often. Most guys start cycling again or don't give themselves enough time off their SERM to see if there's a decline post PCT.

True. SERMS take time to leave the system and their effects last for a long time before we can measure solely our own hormonal production. Best way is to take bloods after PCT to see if it was successful and then right before the next cycle. Then, you will have a true baseline

 

[Sanpedro93]

Bump

 

[Sanpedro93]

Bump

 

[Sanpedro93]

True. SERMS take time to leave the system and their effects last for a long time before we can measure solely our own hormonal production. Best way is to take bloods after PCT to see if it was successful and then right before the next cycle. Then, you will have a true baseline

Do you practice this method and does it display complete recovery? If you dont mind me asking...

 

[GreekTheBrick]

Do you practice this method and does it display complete recovery? If you dont mind me asking...

Good question man. I have practiced this method on me twice, as I didn't have that knowledge before. Nowadays, I advise friends and protégés to always double check their hormonal levels. It-almost-always turns out that the "before next cycle labs or months after PCT labs" are closer to their baseline, while the "just after PCT labs" are more impressive but inaccurate.

A general -and safe for most guys- rule is, the time you are on + the time you PCT = the waiting time till the next cycle. This is the minimum you should wait. So, if you run a cycle of 4weeks + 4weeks PCT then you must give your body AT LEAST 8weeks to reach homeostasis and normalize. That's 8weeks after PCT. Enough time to clear off SERMs and AIs and see what you produce on your own.

 

[Sanpedro93]

Good question man. I have practiced this method on me twice, as I didn't have that knowledge before. Nowadays, I advise friends and protégés to always double check their hormonal levels. It-almost-always turns out that the "before next cycle labs or months after PCT labs" are closer to their baseline, while the "just after PCT labs" are more impressive but inaccurate.

A general -and safe for most guys- rule is, the time you are on + the time you PCT = the waiting time till the next cycle. This is the minimum you should wait. So, if you run a cycle of 4weeks + 4weeks PCT then you must give your body AT LEAST 8weeks to reach homeostasis and normalize. That's 8weeks after PCT. Enough time to clear off SERMs and AIs and see what you produce on your own.

I have been on for 12 weeks.. do u think my recovery will be very slow? Did you personally recover fully? Btw when you say that your friends and proteges are close to baseline does this mean they never have full restoration but just get close to their precycle baseline? Is there a drop off from each cycle?

 

[GreekTheBrick]

I have been on for 12 weeks.. do u think my recovery will be very slow? Did you personally recover fully? Btw when you say that your friends and proteges are close to baseline does this mean they never have full restoration but just get close to their precycle baseline? Is there a drop off from each cycle?

Your recovery depends on genetics, type and length of PCT, type and length of cycle, pre-existing conditions, diet, stress and many more that I am missing at the moment. No one can tell for sure. What have you run and at what doses? Any health conditions? What's your baseline? There are guys here that PCT for 8weeks no matter what. I like this approach.

As for me I was on TRT for 14years(from age 18-32) and I stopped in order to have kids. From complete shutdown I managed to bring my test to 500ish. 3months after PCT it dropped to 350 and it's steady for a long time. At least I managed to fully recover LH and FSH. Sure my endocrine system is messed up. At the moment I am not cycling, nor TRT. I am on hold and trying to grow with what I have. Hard process but achievable. Before I get on TRT again I am planning to run a 6-12months therapy. I am just putting together information and studies in order to choose the correct approach.

As for my fellow lifters, most of them have returned to their baseline. Few had a slight drop. We have guys who had a slight drop after the previous PCT and at their last PCT they raise their test at the first baseline. Others have a steady drop cycle per cycle. They should definitely wait more before cycle again, to give their body time to recover, but they plan their next cycle before even they finish the current one.. Even if they wait enough time, some of them might not fully recover in the end. Who knows? This is the name of this game man, if you are willing to use hormonal enhancement then you must be prepared for things to go south. You may do a perfect PCT but never recover or you may not PCT at all and fully recover after a long time. The sure thing is that by PCT you increase chances for your HPTA to recover and keep as many gains as possible

 

[Sanpedro93]

Your recovery depends on genetics, type and length of PCT, type and length of cycle, pre-existing conditions, diet, stress and many more that I am missing at the moment. No one can tell for sure. What have you run and at what doses? Any health conditions? What's your baseline? There are guys here that PCT for 8weeks no matter what. I like this approach.

As for me I was on TRT for 14years(from age 18-32) and I stopped in order to have kids. From complete shutdown I managed to bring my test to 500ish. 3months after PCT it dropped to 350 and it's steady for a long time. At least I managed to fully recover LH and FSH. Sure my endocrine system is messed up. At the moment I am not cycling, nor TRT. I am on hold and trying to grow with what I have. Hard process but achievable. Before I get on TRT again I am planning to run a 6-12months therapy. I am just putting together information and studies in order to choose the correct approach.

As for my fellow lifters, most of them have returned to their baseline. Few had a slight drop. We have guys who had a slight drop after the previous PCT and at their last PCT they raise their test at the first baseline. Others have a steady drop cycle per cycle. They should definitely wait more before cycle again, to give their body time to recover, but they plan their next cycle before even they finish the current one.. Even if they wait enough time, some of them might not fully recover in the end. Who knows? This is the name of this game man, if you are willing to use hormonal enhancement then you must be prepared for things to go south. You may do a perfect PCT but never recover or you may not PCT at all and fully recover after a long time. The sure thing is that by PCT you increase chances for your HPTA to recover and keep as many gains as possible

Thanks man. Youre elaborate responses are extremely helpful to me and i do not wish to come across as annoying, it is just that I have recently finished my pct of my first cycle and I am kind of paranoid. My cycle was 12 weeks of test enanthate at 600 mg ew and 6 weeks of dianabol at 45 mg ed... i took arimidex 0.25 eod and for pct clomid 100/100/50/50/50 and for nolvadex 20/20/20/20.

My baseline testosterone level was 470 ng/dl which is not that high for my age (23), therefore, full recovery is of dire importance to me. If i do not recover fully i will really have suboptimal levels and might as well use trt as yourself. Also, I do not regret using steroids, but I dont think this life iz for me so I am truly intending only to do one cycle, unless i dont fully recover that is.

Do you view trt as a burden or a blessing?

Do you, based on your own experience, think i have a proper chance at full recovery since this is my first cycle?

 

[Sanpedro93]

As far as I know no particular health conditionz that would impair my endocrine function

 

[Sanpedro93]

I am actually planning to mention all my bloodwork values on this thread upon my recovery in order to paint a picture for other people as to how recovery will go for a specific individual in practice, as I found that aas forums are lacking in this kind of data

 

[GreekTheBrick]

Thanks man. Youre elaborate responses are extremely helpful to me and i do not wish to come across as annoying, it is just that I have recently finished my pct of my first cycle and I am kind of paranoid. My cycle was 12 weeks of test enanthate at 600 mg ew and 6 weeks of dianabol at 45 mg ed... i took arimidex 0.25 eod and for pct clomid 100/100/50/50/50 and for nolvadex 20/20/20/20.

My baseline testosterone level was 470 ng/dl which is not that high for my age (23), therefore, full recovery is of dire importance to me. If i do not recover fully i will really have suboptimal levels and might as well use trt as yourself. Also, I do not regret using steroids, but I dont think this life iz for me so I am truly intending only to do one cycle, unless i dont fully recover that is.

Do you view trt as a burden or a blessing?

Do you, based on your own experience, think i have a proper chance at full recovery since this is my first cycle?

Not annoying at all my friend. First you should relax. Taking the case of no medical conditions, I don't see why you will not recover. Sure baseline is low and that's something that may tell us something. A couple of things. You ran clomid TOO high, no need to go up to 100mg nor for so long. That's not destructive but should felt like hell on PCT. 2weeks at 50mg, another 3weeks at 25mg and an other 2weeks at 25mg every other day is a more effective protocol. Nolva at 20/20/10/10 would suffice. Also you could use some hCG just before PCT to help testicles function again. If your stuff is pharma and you are not having any underling health conditions I believe you will fully recover.

At my 18s I saw TRT as a savior, but back then I knew nothing. Now I know that doc crippled me and he could easily put me on Clomid monotherapy and give my a boost and not struggle 15 years later to have a child. So at 32 that I stopped I saw it as a burden and I am still seeing it now as it, as I try to build with a messed HPTA and God knows what else. Why not getting on TRT again? Well the idea that I am somewhat fully functional again, even at low level, makes me hesitate crippling myself for a 2nd time. It's pure egoism I guess. Sure TRT is unavoidable for me but I will delay it as much as I can.

The only blessing from this is my son.

 

[Sanpedro93]

Not annoying at all my friend. First you should relax. Taking the case of no medical conditions, I don't see why you will not recover. Sure baseline is low and that's something that may tell us something. A couple of things. You ran clomid TOO high, no need to go up to 100mg nor for so long. That's not destructive but should felt like hell on PCT. 2weeks at 50mg, another 3weeks at 25mg and an other 2weeks at 25mg every other day is a more effective protocol. Nolva at 20/20/10/10 would suffice. Also you could use some hCG just before PCT to help testicles function again. If your stuff is pharma and you are not having any underling health conditions I believe you will fully recover.

At my 18s I saw TRT as a savior, but back then I knew nothing. Now I know that doc crippled me and he could easily put me on Clomid monotherapy and give my a boost and not struggle 15 years later to have a child. So at 32 that I stopped I saw it as a burden and I am still seeing it now as it, as I try to build with a messed HPTA and God knows what else. Why not getting on TRT again? Well the idea that I am somewhat fully functional again, even at low level, makes me hesitate crippling myself for a 2nd time. It's pure egoism I guess. Sure TRT is unavoidable for me but I will delay it as much as I can.

The only blessing from this is my son.

I did use hcg the 4 weeks right before ending my cycle (thougj the last shot was with my last shot of test e so i probably got surpressed again for two additionap weeks.

I had a very slight testicular atrophy right before hcg but immediately after hcg they got to full size. My pct has been easy peasy so far and the 100 mg of clomid were not too bad (just felt a bit dizzy and fatigued at first). During this pct i have kept approx 85% of my gains and my sex drive is still ok.. i have sex every day.

Prior to my cycle i always thought i had high test as there was nothing wrong with my sex drive and i could gain muscle easily. If i would meet a new girl i could have sex 3/4 times a day with her. The only reason i took bloods was for the purpose of setting a baseline to measure my recovery post cycle. I think at 470 ng/dl i functioned like a normal male, hence why i want to go back to this level. Do you percieve this level to be very low and an indication of a health defect in regards to my hpta?

Congratulations on your son!! Its great you managed to father a child despite 14 years of trt! Not many men can do that. But TRT is not that bad right? Besides the fertility issues, regular injections (scar tissue) and dependence on medication I dont really see the downsides.

 

[GreekTheBrick]

I did use hcg the 4 weeks right before ending my cycle (thougj the last shot was with my last shot of test e so i probably got surpressed again for two additionap weeks.

I had a very slight testicular atrophy right before hcg but immediately after hcg they got to full size. My pct has been easy peasy so far and the 100 mg of clomid were not too bad (just felt a bit dizzy and fatigued at first). During this pct i have kept approx 85% of my gains and my sex drive is still ok.. i have sex every day.

Prior to my cycle i always thought i had high test as there was nothing wrong with my sex drive and i could gain muscle easily. If i would meet a new girl i could have sex 3/4 times a day with her. The only reason i took bloods was for the purpose of setting a baseline to measure my recovery post cycle. I think at 470 ng/dl i functioned like a normal male, hence why i want to go back to this level. Do you percieve this level to be very low and an indication of a health defect in regards to my hpta?

Congratulations on your son!! Its great you managed to father a child despite 14 years of trt! Not many men can do that. But TRT is not that bad right? Besides the fertility issues, regular injections (scar tissue) and dependence on medication I dont really see the downsides.

Thanks a lot. Despite fertility issues and after a while you get used to it and its part of your life. Also feels great. Better than I feel now. From what I read it seems you function pretty well as a male and I don't think you will have trouble recovering. 470ng/dl at your age is relative low -I think, but that doesn't mean that there is something wrong. There are people with higher levels that feel crap so it's not a dead set number

 

[GreekTheBrick]

Also when you get bloods be sure to post them as these things are valuable to the community

 

[Sanpedro93]

Also when you get bloods be sure to post them as these things are valuable to the community

Thanks.. and yes i will not forego to post blood results

 

[Sanpedro93]

Hey GreektheBrick,

Just an update... I got bloodwork done a while ago a week after pct and my tt was 17 nmol which is slightly higher than usual and my fsh and lh were alot higher than usual. I know this is due to the pct but atleast it was effective. I hope it holds.

23 of february I have another appointment so we will gauge the result than. Its not 3 weeks post pct and my power and sex drive are both good. I cant believe how little strength ive lost. Also my mood is really good and I am energetic.

 

[GreekTheBrick]

Hey GreektheBrick,

Just an update... I got bloodwork done a while ago a week after pct and my tt was 17 nmol which is slightly higher than usual and my fsh and lh were alot higher than usual. I know this is due to the pct but atleast it was effective. I hope it holds.

23 of february I have another appointment so we will gauge the result than. Its not 3 weeks post pct and my power and sex drive are both good. I cant believe how little strength ive lost. Also my mood is really good and I am energetic.

That's great news man, keep training smart and eat and rest enough so as to retain as much as possible.Good sleep is more important now that you are normalizing. Sure it was a successful PCT, keep the thread alive when you get the tests to make a comparison. I hope results to be equally good

 

[Sanpedro93]

That's great news man, keep training smart and eat and rest enough so as to retain as much as possible.Good sleep is more important now that you are normalizing. Sure it was a successful PCT, keep the thread alive when you get the tests to make a comparison. I hope results to be equally good

Hey Greek The Brick. Just an update. Got my blood test taken the 23 of February which was approx 8 weeks after my pct and the results are better than I could wish for. My T value recovered an inch better than last test to 18 nmol and both my fsh and lh are well within range.

I cant believe I recovered so soon and so fully!! Im incredibly happy!

Thank you so much for the kind and soothing words they helped me through this experience.

The world of anabolics is a crazy world and there are so many consequences of wanting to play god and manipulating your body like this. I figured this all is not for me and I will never, ever do this again.

 

[GreekTheBrick]

Hey Greek The Brick. Just an update. Got my blood test taken the 23 of February which was approx 8 weeks after my pct and the results are better than I could wish for. My T value recovered an inch better than last test to 18 nmol and both my fsh and lh are well within range.

I cant believe I recovered so soon and so fully!! Im incredibly happy!

Thank you so much for the kind and soothing words they helped me through this experience.

The world of anabolics is a crazy world and there are so many consequences of wanting to play god and manipulating your body like this. I figured this all is not for me and I will never, ever do this again.

Good job my friend for recovering so well. Having done a correct PCT and having a well functioning system left no choice but to recover. I understand your agony and of course I respect and support your decision. Sure thing is now you have gotten your feet wet and who knows what the future may bring to you!!