Havoc + PP's Tren Tabs?

[greaser]

So I'm 16 days into my first run of Epi/Havoc and I can't say I've noticed much of anything yet -- though I realize it's still early. (I did have noticeably higher libido during week 1). I do have some tren tabs which I snagged not so long ago and was thinking of adding them for like a 3 week run (2 weeks Epi, 3 weeks Epi + tren).

I have never run tren before and am a little afraid because I hear how harsh it is. On the other hand, I like that it's non methylated and hair-safe. I already have on hand pharma grade prami, exemestane and clomid, and well as L-dopa for sides. People seem to like the Epi/Tren combo, but I am a bit hesitant.

Any opinions?

BTW I'm 5' 11", 185, about ~12% body fat and looking to recomp (I really want abs!) I have 2 previous runs of H-drol and Dermacrine stacked.

 

[HereToStudy]

I am usually not a fan of abruptly changing cycles once started. Give the Epi some time, and keep pushing it, the progress should come.

 

[ward5742]

Well tren would really lean you out quit a bit.. so thats up to you if you wanna use it

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

i felt epi with in 3 days and full blown by. it was right before my 22nd bday and my first cycle. id maybe go high dose and for 5 weeks possibly. use the clomid in pct for sure too its suppressive.

 

[kanakafarian]

16 days into epi is pretty long and you should've noticed something by now. How's your diet and training and what are you dosing at?

 

[greaser]

16 days into epi is pretty long and you should've noticed something by now. How's your diet and training and what are you dosing at?

I dosed it at 20mgs for the first few days to assess tolerance, and then upped it to 30mgs. I have my doses split into 3/day, roughly 8 hours apart. I don't like to do crazy high dosing with methyls, so I want to use the lowest effective dose possible. I'm hoping that's 30mgs, but I may need to bump to 40mgs.

I shouldn't really say I feel NOTHING -- there is an increase in libido. I guess I was expecting more because I read so many reviews about people LOVING epi and getting that "alpha feeling" from it. Maybe I'm being impatient and just need to wait a bit longer.

I lift 4-5 days a week. My diet is clean (high protein, good carbs, and healthy fats). I have upped my protein intake for the cycle, but everything else is about the same.

 

[greaser]

Well tren would really lean you out quit a bit.. so thats up to you if you wanna use it

That's just the thing, I do want to get down to about 10% without losing muscle. I know everyone says that -- but I'm at about 12%BF, so I'm hoping that's not TOO unrealistic.

When I ran Hdrol and Dermacrine, I had some pretty impressive strength gains and put on some size, but I didn't lean out much. That's why I went with Epi this time. I hear Tren is supposed to be really thermogenic, which is why I'm tempted by it.

 

[greaser]

I am usually not a fan of abruptly changing cycles once started. Give the Epi some time, and keep pushing it, the progress should come.

Well, I was contemplating a short run of Tren anyway, which is why I bought all the ancillaries for it (prami, exemestane, clomid) but I hadn't run either Epi or Tren before so I thought it would be best to try one solo first.

Oh, and in addition to the clomid I've got the full TRS plus TCF-1 for PCT, and 2 bottles of Liver Juice.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

yeah that stack will shut you down hard and tren has its problems so that PCT will be a great choice.

did you run hdrol and derc together? i didnt get leaner from hdrol either i gianed muscle and some fat with a diet 7.5/10


epi was my first cycle and i did 20 for 2 or 3 days then 30/30/30/40 gained about 11 pounds, did get a tiny bit leaner than hdrol. felt epi about day 3-4 only on bench and then everything else about day 7-8.

i feltl ike hdrol (2nd cycle) kicked in wayyyyy faster even at 40mg with the old ACL stuff. even 60mg i was getting crazy gains and then 80mg was amazing.

i might just run it 5 weeks instead of 4 and up the dose. run yourl iver stuff drink water, continue liver juice in PCT and no drinking during pct and you will be fine even though its a methyl.

 

[greaser]

Yes, I ran Hdrol and Dermacrine together. I used the topical, and I really liked it. I upped my calories for that stack quite a bit and definitely added some fat, unfortunately. I'm hoping the Epi will lean me out.

I kept my Hdrol at 75mgs until the last 5 days when I bumped it up to 100. My flat bench went from 275 x3 to 315x5.

I'm totally staying away from booze and hepatotoxic pain killers while on cycle. In addition to the Liver Juice I have pharma UDCA which is great for dealing with the type of liver damage that methyls tend to cause.

I'm still kicking around the tren idea because people say it's the BEST as far as fat burning goes....

yeah that stack will shut you down hard and tren has its problems so that PCT will be a great choice.

did you run hdrol and derc together? i didnt get leaner from hdrol either i gianed muscle and some fat with a diet 7.5/10


epi was my first cycle and i did 20 for 2 or 3 days then 30/30/30/40 gained about 11 pounds, did get a tiny bit leaner than hdrol. felt epi about day 3-4 only on bench and then everything else about day 7-8.

i feltl ike hdrol (2nd cycle) kicked in wayyyyy faster even at 40mg with the old ACL stuff. even 60mg i was getting crazy gains and then 80mg was amazing.

i might just run it 5 weeks instead of 4 and up the dose. run yourl iver stuff drink water, continue liver juice in PCT and no drinking during pct and you will be fine even though its a methyl.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

might as well do it if you are that age and have experience. Run the usual's

L-dopa (hgh pro, hgh up are great)
p5p
Clomid

Avoid DAA


Run your OTC stack and clomid.

 

[greaser]

I'm 38, so age isn't a factor. I have pretty high natural T though so I worry about messing it up with the must talked about "tren shutdown."

I've got L-dopa from now foods and P5P, as well as Prami if needed.

I WAS planning on running TCF-1 (DAA) as a part of my PCT though. Why do you advise against it?

might as well do it if you are that age and have experience. Run the usual's

L-dopa (hgh pro, hgh up are great)
p5p
Clomid

Avoid DAA


Run your OTC stack and clomid.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

possible prolactin issues. with clomid, dopa and p5p i see you being fine.

 

[greaser]

possible prolactin issues. with clomid, dopa and p5p i see you being fine.

Oh yeah -- I'd heard that use of DAA for a long period can raise prolactin. I was thinking of following the original 12 days on, 12 off protocol though to be on the safe side. Eric initially recommended you start DAA (TCF-1) on the last 6 days of your cycle and run it though the first 6 days of PCT. Then wait 12 days, and then do the remaining 12 days. I think that's because the study that "discovered" DAA only tested subjects for 12 days so it wasn't known what would happen if you ran it beyond that time period.

I do have some Exemestane (Aromasin) too. I know neither "Tren" nor Epi aromatise, but I've heard it's the combination of prolactin with Estogen that actually causes the gyno to form. If could be that the SHBG gets supressed which leads to more free estrogen floating around your system where it can attach to E receptors and possibly causing gyno. Of course, this is just speculation/bro-science. I don't plan on using an AI unless I start to get symptoms though -- it's just good to have all this stuff on hand.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

with your age, clomid, p5p and dopa you will be fine though. I think that sounds like a good protocol.

also they always recommend there PCT and make a tren product so i am sure its fine.