Sumo Deadlift Form Check - 375 lbs x 2

[JesseSands]

Since I posted the squat Form check in my other new thread, I figured I should also get input on my recent deadlifts I was able to have filmed. I feel like my Deadlifts have been coming along nicely since I switched to pulling Sumo, but I also know I still have a lot of work to do to perfect my form. I figure my max right now pulling sumo is about 425 lbs, so for reference this is 2 reps at about 85% of my max. I have more videos of 315 I can post if those will help show my form when the weight moves easier/more explosively.

One thing I am worried about, similar to on my squat form check is the order I'm doing things. Are my hips rising too soon before my shoulders? Am I remaining as upright as I should be? One thing I noticed is that many people recommend that your shins are against the bar and completely vertical, where mine are slightly leaning over the bar it appears. Sometimes I wonder if I am pulling too much with my upper body and not pushing the floor apart and starting the movement with my legs enough.

Let me know what you think guys, and Thanks in advance for your input!

[video=youtube;fZtSa0bI0vc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZtSa0bI0vc[/video]

 

[PaulBlack]

I have more videos of 315 I can post if those will help show my form when the weight moves easier/more explosively.

Well, keep in mind it is easy to use good form on lighter weights, but your work sets and or what you are using to build strength and especially heavy top singles, is definitely, the form you want to be nailing and staying tight on
When guys show me vids of their form with the bar only say, it really does not tell me much about their work sets or top weight, if you see what I am saying.

As far as your form, I am not a good one to critique sumo pulls, since I don't really use it. There are others here that are quite experienced with it.
As far as the squat, it looked like you 1st rep was not too bad, the 3rd appeared a bit heavy and looked (at least from that angle) that your back rounded a tad and you hit it a but higher than your first.
IMO, be a little patient with your work loads and don't try and add weight too fast and sacrifice form.
You'll get there just keep drilling it.

 

[Rodja]

How tall are you? It looks like sumo is not going to be really advantageous for you as your center of gravity seems very high.

With sumo, there should be very little movement in the upper body with all of the force being generated by the thighs and glutes.

 

[kisaj]

I use Sumo quite a bit and prefer it over conventional. You mention this "Sometimes I wonder if I am pulling too much with my upper body and not pushing the floor apart and starting the movement with my legs enough." and that is the very first thing I noticed. You appear to be pulling the weight up to your chest and then putting the focus on using your legs. It should be almost like you are holding the bar and trying to sit up from a chair, keeping the upper body fairly silent.

 

[JesseSands]

I'm 5'11" and about 178 lbs right now. I switched over to Sumo pulling for the benefits of having a more upright back when Im pulling, but thats something I have always wondered about (If conventional actually fits my body type better). One thing that I have to deal with is that I bulged a couple disks in my lower back in a paintball tournament about 8 years ago and I still feel it today. I underwent spinal decompression where they pull the spine apart and heal itself rather than have surgery, but the doctors pretty much said its something that wont ever "completely heal" at that time.

So my thought process was that the heavy squats were already putting a lot of pressure on my back so If I pulled SUMO maybe that would make the deadlifts a little easier on it. Its definitely something that I am open to switching on if I determine that my leverages are actually much better when pulling conventional.

 

[JesseSands]

Thanks kisaj. In my setup and when I begin to pull I keep telling myself push through your feet.... spread the floor etc.... but I kinda feel like maybe im leaning to far over it and I end up just powering it up with my back and then, like you said, finishing with my legs. I'm guessing that this is probably robbing me of some pounds on my lift.

I will try your sitting up from a chair cue and see if that helps me out.

 

[kisaj]

I'm 5'11" and about 178 lbs right now. I switched over to Sumo pulling for the benefits of having a more upright back when Im pulling, but thats something I have always wondered about (If conventional actually fits my body type better). One thing that I have to deal with is that I bulged a couple disks in my lower back in a paintball tournament about 8 years ago and I still feel it today. I underwent spinal decompression where they pull the spine apart and heal itself rather than have surgery, but the doctors pretty much said its something that wont ever "completely heal" at that time.

So my thought process was that the heavy squats were already putting a lot of pressure on my back so If I pulled SUMO maybe that would make the deadlifts a little easier on it. Its definitely something that I am open to switching on if I determine that my leverages are actually much better when pulling conventional.

All of this is certainly a variable and I would see if you can talk to someone local that can really watch your form and critique better. You have gone through a big ordeal with your back and I would not rely on what we can see online.

 

[Rodja]

I'm 5'11" and about 178 lbs right now. I switched over to Sumo pulling for the benefits of having a more upright back when Im pulling, but thats something I have always wondered about (If conventional actually fits my body type better). One thing that I have to deal with is that I bulged a couple disks in my lower back in a paintball tournament about 8 years ago and I still feel it today. I underwent spinal decompression where they pull the spine apart and heal itself rather than have surgery, but the doctors pretty much said its something that wont ever "completely heal" at that time. So my thought process was that the heavy squats were already putting a lot of pressure on my back so If I pulled SUMO maybe that would make the deadlifts a little easier on it. Its definitely something that I am open to switching on if I determine that my leverages are actually much better when pulling conventional.

You're correct about sumo being easier on the back since it is a stabilizer and not a primary mover. I'm on my phone right now, but check out some of the videos I've posted of me pulling in my logs. I'm a sumo puller and a very technical one at that. You'll notice the proper knee, hip, and torso positioning throughout the movement.

 

[KrisL]

people recomend that you shins are against the bar and completely vertical, where mine are slightly leaning over the bar it appears. Sometimes I wonder if I am pulling too much with my upper body and not pushing the floor apart and starting the movement with my legs enough.

I only started playing with sumo last year, but my experimentation has yeilded the following, which I hope might be helpful:

To get shins to stay on your side of the bar, point toes outward more. My flexibility is such that my feet wind up 15* off parallel to the bar. Yours appear to be something like 60* off parallel.
Your lift starts with an immediate drift forward. Lean back, sit into the hole, and use your glutes to fire the bar off the floor.
You're looking up. Try a neutral head position with packed down neck.

 

[JesseSands]

You're correct about sumo being easier on the back since it is a stabilizer and not a primary mover. I'm on my phone right now, but check out some of the videos I've posted of me pulling in my logs. I'm a sumo puller and a very technical one at that. You'll notice the proper knee, hip, and torso positioning throughout the movement.

I will check out some of your vids tonight Rodja. I feel like Im not too far off on my form here, I just need to pull a few more things together and you guys have made some good suggestions.

 

[JesseSands]

I only started playing with sumo last year, but my experimentation has yeilded the following, which I hope might be helpful:

To get shins to stay on your side of the bar, point toes outward more. My flexibility is such that my feet wind up 15* off parallel to the bar. Yours appear to be something like 60* off parallel.
Your lift starts with an immediate drift forward. Lean back, sit into the hole, and use your glutes to fire the bar off the floor.
You're looking up. Try a neutral head position with packed down neck.

I hadnt even thought about foot angle affecting the vertical shins. I will play around with this, thanks!

That drift forward is something I have noticed in most all of my deadlift videos. I actually broke one down into like 6 pictures so I could see where my body was at each point in the lfit (I wish I could find more picture sequence examples like that online to compare to mine)..... andways I notice that after my shoulders drift forward at the start it seems to kinda take the weight away from my legs and I just manhandle it with my upper body until its back centered where I explode with my legs and push my hips through. I think you are right and Im not sitting into it and initiating the lift with my glutes.

Could it be that my glutes are too weak and my back is simply overpowering them and taking the weight?

 

[kisaj]

You are approaching this in a very thorough, logical manner. You should be commended for that.

Again, you are seeing correctly, IMO. Once I built up my glute and ham strength through SLDL, RDL, and ham slides I was able to keep proper form in my sumo even in the upper ranges. I felt I was breaking form over 365, worked on development of glute/ham and was feeling comfortable at 425.

 

[PaulBlack]

Could it be that my glutes are too weak and my back is simply overpowering them and taking the weight?

Does you glutes get DOMS after any bending lifts?
Do you feel you can get good glute "activation"?
I mean can you tense your glutes?

If you do, say a pull thru, where you are basically uprighting your torso by bringing the hips forward, but more so tensing the glutes together to get the body upright.

Actually I hesitate to put all this info out there since you might just need to drill the main lifts for a bit and really dig in your form and gain some strength and mass on a simple approach. Sometimes too much of this info overload, does not always help IMO so take what I say without a lot of analyzing at this point and just work on your form and reps.

 

[JesseSands]

Does you glutes get DOMS after any bending lifts?
Do you feel you can get good glute "activation"?
I mean can you tense your glutes?

If you do, say a pull thru, where you are basically uprighting your torso by bringing the hips forward, but more so tensing the glutes together to get the body upright.

Actually I hesitate to put all this info out there since you might just need to drill the main lifts for a bit and really dig in your form and gain some strength and mass on a simple approach. Sometimes too much of this info overload, does not always help IMO so take what I say without a lot of analyzing at this point and just work on your form and reps.

Right on, will do.

Now that you mention it, I haven't been getting much glute DOMS or soreness lately after my Squat or deadlift work. With all my focus on everything else in these complex movements, I am forgetting to make sure I properly activate my glutes.

Yesterday as an accessory exercise I did GLUTE BRIDGES (I beleive that what they are called, where you hump a preacher or other bar up in the air after laying it across your hips.) So I think the little bit of soreness I have today may be due to those Bridges. Ill take the pointers you guys have given me and try to drill on some more reps on my next workout and see if I think Im making progress in the right direction.

I repped all you guys for helping me out, thanks.

 

[kisaj]

Sounds weird, but I like to give them a good squeeze at the top. If there is a "tightness" then I can tell I am where I want to be. If it feels like I am just warming up, I can tell I am not coming up correctly.

This isn't any advice, just something I do that I figured I'd share.

 

[PaulBlack]

Well, you do not necessarily have to have a lot of DOMS in the glutes (at least from certain exercises. Squats seem to get me more than deads and TBDL's really effect my glutes more than low back) if you can feel or tense them, you are most likely getting them to activate, so yeah it can be just a fact of strengthening and building them, which again is just something that takes some time and work, so just enjoy the ride, so to speak.
Yes glute bridges are one exercise shown to help you activate them, I never did them much and have heard mixed emotions on the carryover to an actual DL. Maybe they would transfer better to the sumo?! Not sure, maybe one of the sumo guys can add some input.

 

[Rodja]

I will check out some of your vids tonight Rodja. I feel like Im not too far off on my form here, I just need to pull a few more things together and you guys have made some good suggestions.

This is about 90%



This is about 60% or so

Notice that the form between the two stays almost exactly the same with knees wide, upright torso, tight arch, vertical shins, and hips pushed back.

 

[JesseSands]

This is about 90%



This is about 60% or so

Notice that the form between the two stays almost exactly the same with knees wide, upright torso, tight arch, vertical shins, and hips pushed back.

Thanks Rodja those videos will help a lot. Its very apparent that I am leaning forward over the weight, especially as it first leaves the ground, when I compare it to your form. It looks like I could take so much more stress off my back when I start "sitting back into the pull" more.

My hips are really tight usually, I hope I can open them up and get them as close to the bar as you, you make it look pretty effortless.... but I know better than that.

I also noticed it looks like we have the same belt in the top video... so I'll be a pro puller in no time right? lol

 

[JesseSands]

I've got some new footage of my Sumo Deadlifts for you guys to take a look at and I really think I made some changes for the better here.Mainly I used a wider stance with my toes angled out much farther and tried to sit back into the pull and initiate with my legs more.I have already noticed that my spinal disk/back pain is much less the day after this workout than it has been after my other heavy squat deadlift days.I think this may be because I am doing a much better job of not rounding my back and not leaning my shoulders foward and manhandling the weight up.Some questions and comments that I have are:

1.It seems like It is harder to get the weight off the floor with my feet this wide, foot angle positioning etc.

2. I still dont seem to be as upright (although I think I've improved this DRASTICALLY since the last video) as say Rodja on these, could that be just due to my body type and arm, torso, leg lengths?Or do you guys think its a flexibility issue?Or is this upright enough for me?....Like I mentioned above, my spinal disk pain was MUCH less the day following this workout than it was after my last heavy Squat/Deadlift day.

3. Should i bring my foot position in a bit closer and work my way out to this width?It feels OK, just a bit of a stretch and sometimes it looks like my lockout at the knees isnt as solid as it should be (maybe this is an illusion from the Rehband Sleeves... I thought I was always fully locked out)

4. Should my shins be touching the bar when I initiate the pull... or like an inch away?

5. I left my Rehband sleeves on my knees since I had just finished squatting.Are these doing more harm than good for Sumo Deadlifts?

Heres the video, thanks for the continued help! I think I am making some major progress!

[video=youtube;eURf_ATEDsQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eURf_ATEDsQ&feature=yo utube_gdata[/video]

 

[KrisL]

I drew all over you!

I'm no sumo pro, so enjoy the following knowing that my methods may not be right - more food for thought than anything.
I like to get my shin as vertical as possible in my starting position, which means they'll be behind the bar so I don't have to move them out of the way to pick up the bar. While it's my ideal, it's probably impossible for anyone to hit 100% vertical - I just aim for it. The pink lines show your knees starting over your toes, past the bar.
The green line and the blue line show some of that mis-alignment.
The orange line is what I would try for - leave the toes where they are, but pull the heels in and simultaneously widen the hips. Of course, your form will likely evolve with your flexibility.

Here's some tubes from dudes that know what they're about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioo4LKjwQfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OAIdkVnUFw

 

[JesseSands]

I drew all over you!


Here's some tubes from dudes that know what they're about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioo4LKjwQfg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OAIdkVnUFw

Thanks for taking the time to draw that up KrisL! I think you are right in that I am really going to have to build up more flexibility (especially in my hips) in order to reach the optimal positions. I think I am working towards it though and I was much more upright in this second video than I was in the first.

Here is another question for you guys... when I am getting into my start position, should it feel like I literally will fall over backwards if I let go of the bar when I am "sitting into" my start position? (Immediately before I begin the pull). Or should I still feel balanced?

I have Max effort Deadlifts this week to determine the numbers I go for on my next iteration of Johnny Candito's Powerlifting training program, so I'm really hoping my form can hold up and I stay upright for the most part. I know my body will want to round at the lower back on that last rep, but I will fight my ass off to get from doing it. I will be attempting 395lbs 1 to 4 reps. Based on how many I get... it sets up my next 5 weeks of training.

 

[Rodja]

Thanks for taking the time to draw that up KrisL! I think you are right in that I am really going to have to build up more flexibility (especially in my hips) in order to reach the optimal positions. I think I am working towards it though and I was much more upright in this second video than I was in the first.

Here is another question for you guys... when I am getting into my start position, should it feel like I literally will fall over backwards if I let go of the bar when I am "sitting into" my start position? (Immediately before I begin the pull). Or should I still feel balanced?

I have Max effort Deadlifts this week to determine the numbers I go for on my next iteration of Johnny Candito's Powerlifting training program, so I'm really hoping my form can hold up and I stay upright for the most part. I know my body will want to round at the lower back on that last rep, but I will fight my ass off to get from doing it. I will be attempting 395lbs 1 to 4 reps. Based on how many I get... it sets up my next 5 weeks of training.

You shouldn't necessarily be falling backwards, but that is the idea. In the pic with all of the arrows, it's impossible to simulate that, though, as the counter weight is insufficient.

 

[herderdude]

Watch as many videos of Andrey Belyaev as you can find and try to emulate that using the cues given to you. I think his technique is ideal. You'll notice his feet aren't collar-to-collar, so don't think you have to get that wide if the leverage doesn't suit you.

 

[JesseSands]

I was able to hit a new 4 rep PR on my Sumo Deadlift on Friday night! 395 lbs X 4 reps. I made a video and will try to link from my phone.
On the final rep I go about as close to failure as you can get and my form breaks down. I was hoping for opinions on how dangerous this is. Is it worth having a set like this every 5 weeks or so, or should I just back off and not get that final rep? (of course it's hard to predict when I will get to the point of bad form breakdown)

Video:

http://youtu.be/Kh6xWE6zWyQ

[video=youtube;Kh6xWE6zWyQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kh6xWE6zWyQ&list=UUhHD rCAjjk0J0hl54tKZjXw[/video]

 

[KrisL]

On form: The only thing I noticed that I find less than ideal was the head position - I prefer neutral for sumo, but your mileage may vary. It may also be helful to try to slam the bar into your hips and the hips into the bar.

As for that last rep... when it gets away from me like that, I've found it far more likely to cause an injury than make me stronger. I've recognized that I need to better learn when to bail. When it's training, not an actual competition - you're allowed another lift.

 

[PaulBlack]

As for that last rep... when it gets away from me like that, I've found it far more likely to cause an injury than make me stronger. I've recognized that I need to better learn when to bail. When it's training, not an actual competition - you're allowed another lift.

This makes good sense really.
Lots of people have done "last bad reps" like you state, but to make them your training, or do them on a reg basis or just because you feel the need to satisfy the ego, will probably not pay off and worse, if you think you can keep getting away with them!!?, they will probably catch up to you. Learning one's limits, is most likely one of the better things a lifter can do for long term staying power.
You are not going to get a white light for that type rep anyway, so why not learn you are your limit and stop, when your form is failing or crashing!?
IMO, and I think we hit on this before, is to be patient and gain and build strength slowly.