Respectable numbers for a beginner.

[DoctorViking]

Hello. I am 25 at 200lbs

I am pretty new to lifting in general, and the three main lifts in particular.
I just got to the point where I can put three plates (315) on the DL, squat, and BP.
The good news is, every time I touch the bar, I hit a PR.

I am interested in entering a PL meet. Mainly to get a feel for what it will be like, connect with the community, and to provide motivation.

My question is this. What are respectable numbers for a first timer in my weight class? The sort of numbers that would at least not leave be dead last out of everyone attending?

 

[DoctorViking]

Thanks for that Confucius, but people compete for a reason, and its not just about the money.
I know my PRs. I know beating those are important. But there is more to be gained when joining the competitive community, even when starting low on the rung.

 

[Sean1332]

Everyone has a different view of what respectable numbers are. For 220 (198 class if you drop 2lbs), a 315 bench is good, but definetly not a 315 squat/deadlift.

Get on a proven program and have your form assessed by someone who knows what they're doing. Technique will be king, followed by training, diet, and enough rest. Might I suggest Wendler's 5/3/1 (5/3/1 for Powerlifting and/or Beyond 5/3/1) OR Brandon Lilly's Cube Kingpin (Book is called 365Strong)

www.powerliftingwatch.com will display a meet schedule for whatever state you live in.

You're first question, "What are respectable numbers?", is the wrong first question.

The first question should be "How can I get stronger?"

Don't worry about everyone else. Everybody at meets are respectable and helpful to beginners.

 

[Sean1332]

But I know you won't be satisfied with that answer so here's your answer:

http://www.criticalbench.com/powerlifting-elite-classifications.htm

Strive for the Elite category. It will be difficult to achieve, but you're good shït if you achieve it.

Also, powerlifting watch maintains a segment of all records: tested, untested, equipped, knee wraps, and without knee wraps

 

[DoctorViking]

Thanks.
Though getting stronger is the easy part. as a beginner, that seems to be coming easy and fast.

As far as my program, I utilize a combo between Doggcrap and Chaos and Pain.
Basically, I go to the gym, pick 1-3 movements, hit PRs for those, and then train them for as much weight and as many sets of 1-5 reps as I can within an hour timeframe.
And lift at least 6 times a week.

 

[Sean1332]

I thought chaos and pain was a supplement company

 

[PumpHouse]

I thought chaos and pain was a supplement company

If I recall correctly the program is basically an obscene amount of singles or double with short blocks of insane volume, 15 sets of 15 deadlifts and stuff.

 

[dds]

Hello. I am 25 at 200lbs

I am pretty new to lifting in general, and the three main lifts in particular.
I just got to the point where I can put three plates (315) on the DL, squat, and BP.
The good news is, every time I touch the bar, I hit a PR.

I am interested in entering a PL meet. Mainly to get a feel for what it will be like, connect with the community, and to provide motivation.

My question is this. What are respectable numbers for a first timer in my weight class? The sort of numbers that would at least not leave be dead last out of everyone attending?

who cares what your "placing" is........get your numbers at your first meet, after that if you just add 1# to your PR you are getting stronger...that's all that matters........

 

[herderdude]

Getting stronger is only the easy part for a few months to a year. Then it comes down to bloody hard work and honest introspection. That's why you hear these guys telling you to focus on PRs. When a lift gets stuck for 6 months and you finally bust it, you won't care what the world champion does, you'll just be happy you finally scored another victory over the iron.

 

[rob112]

Can you lift a barbell? Okay you qualify to do a meet. Most guys seem to respect anyone who is willing to put it on the line.

If you are really worried check the federation and meet results. Sometimes 1100 will win the 198s, and sometimes it is 1500. You will enter novice and likely have little to no competition.

It is odd your max is the same on all 3. Get on a balanced program as mentioned bc you may lack symmetry in your workouts.

 

[AlexPowell]

Yeah bro, don't worry about what other people do

When doing something for material gain, you activate the nucleus accumbens in your brain. That's essentially the pleasure center in the brain, but it requires ever increasing amounts of stimulation and is generally harder to activate than other parts. Doing something for fun, however, activates the posterior superior temporal sulcus, which is the part of the brain responsible for social interactions (also known as the altruism center), in addition to biological movement. They can't function at the same time, so you basically have to pick activating one and sticking with it. (Jamie Lewis)

So just enjoy your training and you'll be embarrassing people at meets in no time

 

[rob112]

Yeah bro, don't worry about what other people do

When doing something for material gain, you activate the nucleus accumbens in your brain. That's essentially the pleasure center in the brain, but it requires ever increasing amounts of stimulation and is generally harder to activate than other parts. Doing something for fun, however, activates the posterior superior temporal sulcus, which is the part of the brain responsible for social interactions (also known as the altruism center), in addition to biological movement. They can't function at the same time, so you basically have to pick activating one and sticking with it. (Jamie Lewis)

So just enjoy your training and you'll be embarrassing people at meets in no time

Psychologist?

 

[AlexPowell]

nah bro just a nerd
job is a unix guy for a government business

 

[zachmcd]

nah bro just a nerd job is a unix guy for a government business

Yeah, just a record holding nerd! Also the main author of chaos and pain, which was previously mentioned in the thread.

 

[AlexPowell]

Oh I was talking about myself then, assuming the guy was asking if I was a psych
The citation is Jamie Lewis, who in turn cited Brafman, Ori and Rom Brafman. Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior.
Doubletree: New York 2008.

 

[fueledpassion]

A general rule to be competitive at meets is to

Bench 2 times ur weight
Squat 2.5 times
DL 2.5-3 times

 

[herderdude]

A general rule to be competitive at meets is to

Bench 2 times ur weight
Squat 2.5 times
DL 2.5-3 times

Maybe if you weigh 148 or the meet you're doing is a world championship with cash prizes.

 

[AlexPowell]

He did say competitive

 

[herderdude]

James Henderson, first man to bench press 700 pounds raw, not competitive in meets because he didn't bench twice his bodyweight? PLWatch lists 58 men who have benched 600lbs. One of the true great feats in powerlifting. 40% of them didn't bench twice their bodyweight. Not competitive?

 

[AlexPowell]

The OP weighs 200lb
What the **** has James Henderson got to do with anything?

 

[rob112]

Why do we answer questions with questions?

 

[herderdude]

Okay, so OP weighs 200. How many 198s bench over 4 raw? That's elite. Which means that 1% of competitive powerlifters will hit that number, or that there would be approximately twenty-odd people in a given year that hit that number to competition standards. There are far more than twenty meets a year. So if you bench 400 in a competition at 198 and take second place, you either live close to one of the baddest benchers on the planet, or you went to a big meet (national or worlds).

If you show up and bench 350 at 198, you're probably gonna win the bench. But if you show up and hit double bodyweight at SHW, 308, 275, 242, anywhere in there, you win or are on the podium every single meet you enter, no matter who shows up. I guess it comes down to what you consider competitive.

Basically, anyone can compete in powerlifting. It's about PRs, beating yourself. Don't tell a guy he won't be competitive until he adds 100lbs to each lift, that's discouraging from going on the platform and shrinking the sport.

 

[AlexPowell]

ah **** it, I have better things to do than debate pointless **** online

 

[herderdude]

What the **** has James Henderson got to do with anything?

"A general rule to be competitive is... a double bodyweight bench."

James Henderson held the world record for eight years with a less than double bodyweight bench.

I've won two meets with a less than double bodyweight bench, less than 2.5x bodyweight squat, and a less than 2.5x bodyweight deadlift. If I had those specs at 220, I'd be five pounds from totaling elite. Elite is, as I mentioned, 1% of competitive powerlifters. If there were 300 people in my weight class in every meet, then yes, those numbers would be accurate.

 

[rob112]

Slowclap.gif

 

[fueledpassion]

Okay, so OP weighs 200. How many 198s bench over 4 raw? That's elite. Which means that 1% of competitive powerlifters will hit that number, or that there would be approximately twenty-odd people in a given year that hit that number to competition standards. There are far more than twenty meets a year. So if you bench 400 in a competition at 198 and take second place, you either live close to one of the baddest benchers on the planet, or you went to a big meet (national or worlds).

If you show up and bench 350 at 198, you're probably gonna win the bench. But if you show up and hit double bodyweight at SHW, 308, 275, 242, anywhere in there, you win or are on the podium every single meet you enter, no matter who shows up. I guess it comes down to what you consider competitive.

Basically, anyone can compete in powerlifting. It's about PRs, beating yourself. Don't tell a guy he won't be competitive until he adds 100lbs to each lift, that's discouraging from going on the platform and shrinking the sport.

Several 198's bench over 400. Its pretty common.

 

[herderdude]

Several 198's bench over 400. Its pretty common.

I think we're too far apart on our definitions of common and competitive to come to an agreement on the specs, at least not without a lot of haggling and trivial frustration.

Hopefully I can break into some of those numbers, gunning for my first 2.5xbw squat and pull this weekend, definitely gonna take both for a ride at the very least! If I get a double bodyweight bench in the next few years, I'd consider myself well ahead of schedule on my progress.

 

[fueledpassion]

I think we're too far apart on our definitions of common and competitive to come to an agreement on the specs, at least not without a lot of haggling and trivial frustration.

Hopefully I can break into some of those numbers, gunning for my first 2.5xbw squat and pull this weekend, definitely gonna take both for a ride at the very least! If I get a double bodyweight bench in the next few years, I'd consider myself well ahead of schedule on my progress.

Perhaps. I'm just goin by what I've seen at local PL meets and what I'm exposed to in the gym.

But here in the South is a bunch of corn fed behemoths. Its common place to see all the state & national records held by Tennessean's. I'm fairly average in my strength being able to bench 300+ @ 175. There r plenty of other guys 10-20lbs less than me that lift more than that.

DL is even more drastic around here. I have a friend that pulled 520 @ 178lbs with terrible form, zero strength training and was at the time about 21yrs old.

 

[JudoJosh]

Hello. I am 25 at 200lbs

I am pretty new to lifting in general, and the three main lifts in particular.
I just got to the point where I can put three plates (315) on the DL, squat, and BP.
The good news is, every time I touch the bar, I hit a PR.

I am interested in entering a PL meet. Mainly to get a feel for what it will be like, connect with the community, and to provide motivation.

My question is this. What are respectable numbers for a first timer in my weight class? The sort of numbers that would at least not leave be dead last out of everyone attending?

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.htm

As others have mentioned, lift for yourself, but if your worried about coming in last in a meet the charts in the above link should add some goals to shoot for to ease that worry.

Having goals are good but how you place at an event really comes down to who shows up that day honestly

 

[James Fuller]

just go look at plw and look at your wt class. Then chase down numbers from there.

 

[asooneyeonig]

A general rule to be competitive at meets is to

Bench 2 times ur weight
Squat 2.5 times
DL 2.5-3 times

competitive at what level? the world class? cause i could see that for sure.

now i have only done 5 powerlifting meets yet i have won my weight class at 3 of them and i dont hit those numbers. the largest meet i was at was a local meet with 73 lifters. the smallest was a state championship meet with 25. oh, and the state championship was won with a 1800 total and according to your recommendations that guy is not competitive. he was 350lbs shy of being competitive yet he is going to nationals next year. something seems a bit off.

i think someone is number numb here and competitive needs to be clarified. there are local/city meets, state level meets, national and world level meets. what i have seen win at local and state levels are closer to:
bench 1.5x BW
squat 1.5-2x BW
deadlift 2-2.5x BW

sure you can find examples of higher but i know you can examples of lower here as well. what is important is taking an average, or even a median. above what i listed is much closer to winning at nearly any weight class. and that is still decided upon who even shows up that day and not everyone wins. there is a reason why there are 6 classes of lifter rankings.
http://rawpowerlifting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Lifter-Classifications.pdf

lets take a male 198lbs lifter. to get a class IV total he only needs 822. that is only a 4.15x BW total. a far less cry of the above recommended 7.5x BW. 7.5x BW would get the lifter 10lbs shy of elite. and elite is usually considered the top 1% or less of the world i better dam hope your competitive at that level. hell im winning meets at 5.65x my bodyweight.

so to wrap up, if you want to be the best in the world, aim for higher that the above recommended numbers. if you want to compete, sign up, compete and you are then a competitive powerlifter. and hopefully like all the meets i have been to you will realize that everyone is very supported of all lifters. from an 8yr old girl to a 73yr old man, to a handicapped lifter to someone that cant even lift their bodyweight to a monster with an 1800lbs total. you will see that when the effort is put forth everyone gets excited and roots for everyone even fellow competitors. hell at one meet i helped a guy wrap his knees and watched him go on to beat me. i was glad to do so as he got a PR that meet after an injury 6 months earlier. made a friend that day with that lifter too.

 

[anonymous_bur]

Several 198's bench over 400. Its pretty common.

it is absolutely not common.

 

[fueledpassion]

competitive at what level? the world class? cause i could see that for sure.

now i have only done 5 powerlifting meets yet i have won my weight class at 3 of them and i dont hit those numbers. the largest meet i was at was a local meet with 73 lifters. the smallest was a state championship meet with 25. oh, and the state championship was won with a 1800 total and according to your recommendations that guy is not competitive. he was 350lbs shy of being competitive yet he is going to nationals next year. something seems a bit off.

i think someone is number numb here and competitive needs to be clarified. there are local/city meets, state level meets, national and world level meets. what i have seen win at local and state levels are closer to:
bench 1.5x BW
squat 1.5-2x BW
deadlift 2-2.5x BW

sure you can find examples of higher but i know you can examples of lower here as well. what is important is taking an average, or even a median. above what i listed is much closer to winning at nearly any weight class. and that is still decided upon who even shows up that day and not everyone wins. there is a reason why there are 6 classes of lifter rankings.
http://rawpowerlifting.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Lifter-Classifications.pdf

lets take a male 198lbs lifter. to get a class IV total he only needs 822. that is only a 4.15x BW total. a far less cry of the above recommended 7.5x BW. 7.5x BW would get the lifter 10lbs shy of elite. and elite is usually considered the top 1% or less of the world i better dam hope your competitive at that level. hell im winning meets at 5.65x my bodyweight.

so to wrap up, if you want to be the best in the world, aim for higher that the above recommended numbers. if you want to compete, sign up, compete and you are then a competitive powerlifter. and hopefully like all the meets i have been to you will realize that everyone is very supported of all lifters. from an 8yr old girl to a 73yr old man, to a handicapped lifter to someone that cant even lift their bodyweight to a monster with an 1800lbs total. you will see that when the effort is put forth everyone gets excited and roots for everyone even fellow competitors. hell at one meet i helped a guy wrap his knees and watched him go on to beat me. i was glad to do so as he got a PR that meet after an injury 6 months earlier. made a friend that day with that lifter too.

Geeze, we're not talkin about 308 class! We're talkin the 198 class. BIG DIFFERENCE IN EXPECTATIONS FOR POWER/WEIGHT RATIO BETWEEN THOSE TWO. Read my post in context of the thread please.

So I guess I'm world class PL'er liftin around 1120lbs at 174lbs? Is that what ur sayin? There are sssooooooo many people that could piss on my numbers in a lighter class than me.

 

[asooneyeonig]

Geeze, we're not talkin about 308 class! We're talkin the 198 class. BIG DIFFERENCE IN EXPECTATIONS FOR POWER/WEIGHT RATIO BETWEEN THOSE TWO. Read my post in context of the thread please.

im talking about all weight classes. i used 2 as examples and showed a classification for all weight classes. at each weight class elite is:
114 = 7.04x BW
123 = 7.16
132 = 7.17
148 = 7.59
165 = 7.62
181 = 7.71
198 = 7.55
220 = 7.21
242 = 6.64
275 = 6.22
308 = 5.65

wow, at 7.5x BW you would part of the worlds elite at pretty much every weight class there is for a male. that sounds reasonable for the average person to reach, uuhmmm no it doesnt at all. even for people that train for years to reach that level there is a reason why elite is elite. its the best of the best. so your comment on being elite as a way to be competitive is so far off of realism its just sad. shows a massive skewed view of the real world. it also shows that you are just number numb. sure you know some strong guys. but is that an accurate representation of the competitive world of powerlifting, well the lifting classifications i posted prove that no, thats not the case at all. now you can argue with that but then you are arguing with an entire federation's standards and not mine. maybe you should start your own fed and start the bottom ratings as something like 7.0x BW totals and go up from there. and people that lift in that fed can then argue over what is strong or not. i'll stick to the what the other 99.999% of the world is doing in reality.

i think this is the point where several people prove you wrong and you try and backpedal. i rarely see your posts around here, at least in the sections i frequent, but when i do see them this is a common thing with you. totally off the wall, way out there posts that are so wrong you have to wonder if you are trolling due to the massive pile of wrong that is your posts.

So I guess I'm world class PL'er liftin around 1120lbs at 174lbs? Is that what ur sayin? There are sssooooooo many people that could piss on my numbers in a lighter class than me.

and that weight puts you in the 181 weight class with a class II ranking. according to your 7.5x BW standard to be competitive that you would not be competitive at all. so by your own statements you are not world class. by ranking accepted by rational thinking people you are a class II lifter. it would get decent competition at a state level and maybe even in some feds at a national level.

if those people are pissing on your numbers at a lighter weight class, well that means that they would be a master or elite lifter. seeing as how they are a lighter weight class that is a good thing as they are totaling at a higher level than you are. what that has to do with anything is beyond me other than you grasping as straws. the only time you would compete with them at a meet is if you went to a USSF meet and yes, they are stronger so they would win. but then they use the Wilks score to decide the winner so they could lift less than you and still bet you, and therefore be stronger. more proof that this statement has no relevance to the topic at hand.

i think it is clear that anyone can be competitive at any level i am curious to see how the responses continue on here. for the many years i have frequented forums it is pretty obvious what will happen though.

 

[jimbuick]

Geeze, we're not talkin about 308 class! We're talkin the 198 class. BIG DIFFERENCE IN EXPECTATIONS FOR POWER/WEIGHT RATIO BETWEEN THOSE TWO. Read my post in context of the thread please.

So I guess I'm world class PL'er liftin around 1120lbs at 174lbs? Is that what ur sayin? There are sssooooooo many people that could piss on my numbers in a lighter class than me.

I come dangerously close to negging this guy when I see him post garbage like this, just so that no one in these sections takes him seriously.

I'm sure he has other areas where his experience/knowledge is on point, but every time he tries to comment about strength sports he never has any idea what he's talking about.

 

[AlexPowell]

Told you it was a stupid argument

 

[Swanson52]

Thanks.
Though getting stronger is the easy part. as a beginner, that seems to be coming easy and fast.

As far as my program, I utilize a combo between Doggcrap and Chaos and Pain.
Basically, I go to the gym, pick 1-3 movements, hit PRs for those, and then train them for as much weight and as many sets of 1-5 reps as I can within an hour timeframe.
And lift at least 6 times a week.

Lol I'm sure this'll carry your arrogant ass straight to the top of 10 Feds.

 

[Swanson52]

I come dangerously close to negging this guy when I see him post garbage like this, just so that no one in these sections takes him seriously.

I'm sure he has other areas where his experience/knowledge is on point, but every time he tries to comment about strength sports he never has any idea what he's talking about.

Just do it.

 

[James Fuller]

it is absolutely not common.

are you joking? if you dont bench over 400 at 198 raw you dont even make the mens current list on powerliftingwatch.

 

[Sean1332]

Edit: Nevermind this thread sucks

 

[James Fuller]

imo. competitive for a 198 should be 550+ / 365+ / 550+. Those are numbers that would be competitive at a small meet.

 

[jimbuick]

imo. competitive for a 198 should be 550+ / 365+ / 550+. Those are numbers that would be competitive at a small meet.

I've gotten 1st (lowest placing being second) place at meets, as a 198, with way lower numbers than that.

So, those numbers are definitely not what's competitive at a meet. These also were non drug tested (APF, for those wondering. I wasn't on cycle, however.) with just under 100 lifters at each one.

 

[James Fuller]

I've gotten 1st (lowest placing being second) place at meets, as a 198, with way lower numbers than that.

So, those numbers are definitely not what's competitive at a meet. These also were non drug tested (APF, for those wondering. I wasn't on cycle, however.) with just under 100 lifters at each one.

Did you lift against anybody? because those numbers are close to what i should total next year at 165

 

[Sean1332]

imo. competitive for a 198 should be 550+ / 365+ / 550+. Those are numbers that would be competitive at a small meet.

I placed best overall with 550/300/525 7/9 at my first meet and 2nd place with 600/300/485 5/9 at my second meet, which had 150+ lifters. Competed against others in the same division at both meets.

Both at 220.

It's gonna vary meet to meet. Telling the guy he needs elite numbers and that he won't even place on PLwatch just sounds like a dick move from everyone here. No one will achieve those their first meets, nor will there be people like that at every single meet, or at least multiple people like that.

 

[James Fuller]

I placed best overall with 550/300/525 7/9 at my first meet and 2nd place with 600/300/485 5/9 at my second meet, which had 150+ lifters. Competed against others in the same division at both meets.

Both at 220.

It's gonna vary meet to meet. Telling the guy he needs elite numbers and that he won't even place on PLwatch just sounds like a dick move from everyone here. No one will achieve those their first meets, nor will there be people like that at every single meet, or at least multiple people like that.

I wasnt trying to sound like a dick when i mentioned plw. I use plw to go off of, because when i compete i dont always have someone to compete against. Its just something i use as a goal or something to compare off. I won the WCO with a 1229 and the very next weekend got my butt kicked with a 1265. placed 4th that meet. competitive numbers varies from meet to meet

 

[Sean1332]

I wasnt trying to sound like a dick when i mentioned plw. I use plw to go off of, because when i compete i dont always have someone to compete against. Its just something i use as a goal or something to compare off. I won the WCO with a 1229 and the very next weekend got my butt kicked with a 1265. placed 4th that meet. competitive numbers varies from meet to meet

Fair enough. I just don't want the OP thinking he has to achieve all those numbers in order to be competitive. For him to be competitive at a national level, like you're striving for, then yeah his numbers suck. For a local meet, for his first time, some more work and he could possibly become competitive

 

[James Fuller]

OP - This is what i do. I set my goals for the meet as soon as i find out about the meet. Then use, those goals as training maxes to train with. As long as I hit those goals, then im good. If i end up getting to compete with someone the obviously im going to want to win. So strategy for if i compete against someone is to hit those goal numbers on 2nd attempts and then go big on 3rds for the win. If its just me, then ill take my time and get up to the numbers i want, on 3rd attempts.

Look up past meets that have been held at wherever your competing at, and see what kind of numbers ppl have thrown up in the past.

 

[jimbuick]

Fair enough. I just don't want the OP thinking he has to achieve all those numbers in order to be competitive. For him to be competitive at a national level, like you're striving for, then yeah his numbers suck. For a local meet, for his first time, some more work and he could possibly become competitive

Exactly.


Competitive at a national level =/= competitive at most meets.

 

[fueledpassion]

Clearly you guys are passionate about your perspective on powerlifting.

However, Jimbuick- neg away. I dont know what ur reason is other than I said something u dont agree with, lol. However you've given me plenty of reason to neg you but I wont because I'm a graceful man. None of this changes the fact that there are plenty of guys lifting twice their weight in bench pressing and deadlifting at or near 3 times their weight. Common is a relative word and ur coming back with specific arguments to attack a relative statement. Whatever ur trying to accomplish, its not working.

I'm not tryin to start fights but finding lifter with those capabilities around my parts is easy. There are a handful at every gym in my town. And who cares? Does that somehow make u less of a man because others can lift more? Why so defensive?

I dont get you guys. You waste so much energy on the wrong things. Just disagree and leave it alone. I'm stepping out of this thread and unsubbing for the sake of two gentleman who apparently r showing lots of hate towards me and my posts. I hope ya'll can still find the energy to lift some weights after wearing urself out on this pointless argument.

 

[jimbuick]

Clearly you guys are passionate about your perspective on powerlifting.

However, Jimbuick- neg away. I dont know what ur reason is other than I said something u dont agree with, lol. However you've given me plenty of reason to neg you but I wont because I'm a graceful man. None of this changes the fact that there are plenty of guys lifting twice their weight in bench pressing and deadlifting at or near 3 times their weight. Common is a relative word and ur coming back with specific arguments to attack a relative statement. Whatever ur trying to accomplish, its not working.

I'm not tryin to start fights but finding lifter with those capabilities around my parts is easy. There are a handful at every gym in my town. And who cares? Does that somehow make u less of a man because others can lift more? Why so defensive?

I dont get you guys. You waste so much energy on the wrong things. Just disagree and leave it alone. I'm stepping out of this thread and unsubbing for the sake of two gentleman who apparently r showing lots of hate towards me and my posts. I hope ya'll can still find the energy to lift some weights after wearing urself out on this pointless argument.

You don't get why we would encourage a beginner to compete and argue when someone says he can't be competitive without an elite total?


Makes sense.