cleans and/or deadlifts?

riseabove5

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I'm on a specific 10 week program with

Monday - chest/triceps
Tuesday- back/biceps
Thursday - shoulders/forearms
Friday - legs

The program didnt include cleans or dead lifts and I feel like every mass building program should include it. Should I add cleans or dead lifts on one of those days or should I just trust the program?
 
Swanson52

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I'd put in DL on back day.

If I may ask, is is specific for a sport (ie summer training)?
 

PaulBlack

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Might agree with Swanson but...

Can I ask who designed that 10 week mass program?
I just feel more compound exercise work & frequency, and by hitting them more than 1x per week

Lastly, "mass" is quite directly associated with food
 
riseabove5

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Might agree with Swanson but...

Can I ask who designed that 10 week mass program?
I just feel more compound exercise work & frequency, and by hitting them more than 1x per week

Lastly, "mass" is quite directly associated with food
Very true and it was off of a website called muscle and strength
 

Jcweinsx

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10 week plans are for magazines sales and ads not real life ( or maybe an advanced lifter focusing on bringing up a specific lift)

DL yes. Cleans maybe if you need explosive power in hips for a specific activity.

If chest/back/tris are done on the same day this frees up a day a DL. I train biceps with shoulders. Bis get plenty of work on other days from pullups and croc rows/bent over rows/t-bar rows. I do cleans same day before DL, but not heavy cleans only 80-85% body weight. I like to use cleans because it gets me warmed up very quickly. I'm more interested in bench, DL, and squat so cleans are just an accessory lift for me not a goal. The adaptation carries over into other activities I do so cleans work for me.

I do trad DL on 5/3/1 programming with 5 sets of 10 rep snatch grip DL. The snatch grip will really work your upper back.

You didn't provide any specifics on programming (rep ranges, % 1rm) so this plan could be almost good (except for leaving out DL) or horrible. What back exercise does plan use?
 

PaulBlack

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Very true and it was off of a website called muscle and strength
Really? And they called it a mass builder? Wow.
They are having you hit groups only 1x per week (not enough frequency, especially on the small groups)
Then they are having you do mostly small muscles groups ie: shoulders/forearms A day then chest/triceps another day!??? (and they are divided into separate days work?)

Can I ask who the author was to that^???

Building good body mass involves using the biggest muscle groups and eating plenty. It is pretty dang simple but don't confuse that with "easy".
Training the entire body 2x-3x times per week on the big 5-7 compound barbell exercises. Look into 5x5's or something.
Maybe cleans in there somewhere for some explosive work, but I don't think they are needed, at least until a trainee gets a bit of training in on the big mass movers.
 
riseabove5

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Really? And they called it a mass builder? Wow.
They are having you hit groups only 1x per week (not enough frequency, especially on the small groups)
Then they are having you do mostly small muscles groups ie: shoulders/forearms A day then chest/triceps another day!??? (and they are divided into separate days work?)

Can I ask who the author was to that^???

Building good body mass involves using the biggest muscle groups and eating plenty. It is pretty dang simple but don't confuse that with "easy".
Training the entire body 2x-3x times per week on the big 5-7 compound barbell exercises. Look into 5x5's or something.
Maybe cleans in there somewhere for some explosive work, but I don't think they are needed, at least until a trainee gets a bit of training in on the big mass movers.
I agree with you 100%. I'm only on week 3 and I have gained a little weight. Only because of my diet. The website was muscleandstrength.com

So you recommend a 5x5 program?
 

PaulBlack

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Hey finish it out and see where it takes you.

But...

So you recommend a 5x5 program?
Well, most top gurus do, so who am I to argue!?
All I am saying is, that if you want the most bang for you training buck, you need to get the biggest weights off the floor, racks etc. doing it. I don't know any better way, than using the big 5-7 compound barbell moves (sure you can use some machines too) a few times per week, and eating good food. It builds bulk, strength, work ethic, fitness and gives you a whole appearance instead of body parts stuck together.
 

Jcweinsx

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I did strong lifts 5x5 for 9 months. It's good stuff. Stay on 5x5 until you can't make any more progress. BW went up 20lbs all natty using 5x5. The plan is simple- A and B workouts, squats every WO. No isolation exercises. No cleans in that plan. The guy I train with was a zero exp absolute newb and he put on 25 lbs in same timeframe using SL 5x5
 
riseabove5

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Monday
1) Bench Press
2) Squats
3) Barbell Rows

Wednesday
1) Standing Military Press
2) Deadlift
3) Squats
4) Pull-ups

Friday
1) Bench Press
2) Squat
3) Barbell Rows

Saturday (OFF)
Sunday (OFF)
 
riseabove5

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Monday 1) Bench Press 2) Squats 3) Barbell Rows

Wednesday 1) Standing Military Press 2) Deadlift 3) Squats 4) Pull-ups

Friday 1) Bench Press 2) Squat 3) Barbell Rows

Saturday (OFF)

Sunday (OFF)

Does that sound like a good 5x5 plan??
 

PaulBlack

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Monday 1) Bench Press 2) Squats 3) Barbell Rows

Wednesday 1) Standing Military Press 2) Deadlift 3) Squats 4) Pull-ups

Friday 1) Bench Press 2) Squat 3) Barbell Rows

Saturday (OFF)

Sunday (OFF)

Does that sound like a good 5x5 plan??

Personally, I might not squat 3x per week.

Monday Squat 5x5 (2 warmups say bar then bar+#20-30, then 3 work sets)
BP 5x5
Rows 4x8-10
OHP's 3x8
Arm work? 3x8-10

Wednesday
OHP's 5x5
Deadlifts 3x5-8
Chins 3x8
Incline or flat BP's 5x5
abs

Friday BP's 5x5
Light Squats and maybe a set or 2 of leg presses maybe 2-3x8-10
Rows 3x8
OHP's 3x8-10
arms a few sets each

2 days off

Rinse and repeat
You want to start off pretty easy on everything and feeling like you could do quite a bit more. As you get farther into the cycle, believe me that changes, by constantly adding weight to bar.
You can drag a cycle out long as a newbie by adding weight slowly (maybe #5-#10 or so on big exercises and #2 1/2 on the smaller ones ohp's etc. and certainly eating enough.
Leg presses can replace a squat if you want,*but make sure you put the greatest focus and effort in on the big stuff with most muscles ie: squats, deads rows ohps and bps.
Rows, ohps, arm work and stuff can be hit with more reps ie: 3x8's-10's
Most of all have fun. Stuff stops working when it becomes drudgery.
 
asooneyeonig

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there are plenty of proven 5x5 programs out there. find one, use it for 6 months minimum, eat a lot, sleep a lot and enjoy the gains.

some of them are madcow and stronglifts.
 
OnionKnight

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Personally, I might not squat 3x per week.

Monday Squat 5x5 (2 warmups say bar then bar+#20-30, then 3 work sets)
BP 5x5
Rows 4x8-10
OHP's 3x8
Arm work? 3x8-10

Wednesday
OHP's 5x5
Deadlifts 3x5-8
Chins 3x8
Incline or flat BP's 5x5
abs

Friday BP's 5x5
Light Squats and maybe a set or 2 of leg presses maybe 2-3x8-10
Rows 3x8
OHP's 3x8-10
arms a few sets each

2 days off

Rinse and repeat
You want to start off pretty easy on everything and feeling like you could do quite a bit more. As you get farther into the cycle, believe me that changes, by constantly adding weight to bar.
You can drag a cycle out long as a newbie by adding weight slowly (maybe #5-#10 or so on big exercises and #2 1/2 on the smaller ones ohp's etc. and certainly eating enough.
Leg presses can replace a squat if you want,*but make sure you put the greatest focus and effort in on the big stuff with most muscles ie: squats, deads rows ohps and bps.
Rows, ohps, arm work and stuff can be hit with more reps ie: 3x8's-10's
Most of all have fun. Stuff stops working when it becomes drudgery.
he left some info out. wed squats are actually light weight squats just to keep form. looks like he copy/pasted madcows 5x5.

op, madcows is a badass routine. just make sure you know how to do pendlay rows correctly
 

PaulBlack

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he left some info out. wed squats are actually light weight squats just to keep form. looks like he copy/pasted madcows 5x5.

op, madcows is a badass routine. just make sure you know how to do pendlay rows correctly
Haha, I will be totally honest, I have never really seen Madcows, but most old stuff by Starr, Kubik, McRobert, Steiner, McCallum, Ditillo, Thompson, etc. etc. is the same or the newer guys on the block, most likely dug there stuff up from this old school stuff. Hit the big 5-7 compounds, 2-3 times per week and eat. It is really that simple. Trainees, figuring the more complicated or split up something is the better, is missing the mark.
 

Jcweinsx

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Now that we see the details - Run it. You're fine. Only rec would be add more chin-ups/pull-ups. I'd do em every WO on that plan. Skip the leg press, just squat.
 

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