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OTC PCT Guide ...

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    OTC PCT Guide ...


    Post Cycle Therapy - Why you need to do it

    Back in the old days (50's-70's) when steroids were first popularized in the bodybuilding culture, no one ran PCT. It wasn?t until Dan Duchaine wrote his famous book "The Underground Steroid Handbook" that PCT became widely known. Guys were running 21 week cycles with no PCT and yet gynecomastia was still a fairly rare occurrence. Guys were even able to keep some of their mass gains without doing a PCT. Duchaine advocated the use of Nolvadex as the preferred compound for recovery of HPTA after steroid usage. He also advocated the use of Clomid as it has mimetic properties of LH so the use of both together would block estrogen receptors in the breast and help to raise testosterone levels at the same time. At the time, Duchaine recommended getting the stuff in Mexican pharmacies as no prescription was needed to purchase the drugs. Now these drugs have fallen in to a grey area of the law and are available as research chemicals from several online retailers.

    Today there is a growing concern among users of research chemicals as to the purity, the legality and privacy issues. Recently "Operation Raw Deal" closed several research chemical retail sites and has people somewhat on edge about purchasing these chemicals. So what can we use to recover HPTA function as quickly as possible and that has no legal, purity or privacy issues?

    Luckily, there is growing evidence that a natural SERM has been found in a compound found in wine grapes. The compound? Trans-Resveratrol. The research body is still growing on this wonderful compound but early indications and independent lab tests show that it acts as an antagonist to estrogen when estrogen is present. Moreover, it is selective to breast tissue estrogen receptors. So what does this mean? A SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) blocks estrogen from binding to estrogen receptors in breast tissue, which prevents the formation of ?***** tits? after a cycle of steroids. These small boobs are the most feared side effect of steroid users. The major cause of these "***** tits" is the sudden rise of testosterone and thus estrogen during the restoration of HPTA and the estrogen exerting an effect on Estrogen Receptors in breast tissue.

    Recovering HPTA Function - Testosterone

    Recovering HPTA involves getting our hormones back to a normal level or homeostasis. So what does that entail? I have read several articles that said that boosting LH is going to boost test production. While this may be somewhat true there are plenty of study?s that suggest that males suffering hypogonadism have plenty of LH circulating the body but that the testes do not respond to this message to produce testosterone. So getting our test production back online involves using many different pathways to tell the testes to get busy producing testosterone again.

    HPTA recovery involves boosting testosterone production. So how exactly does that work? Are there natural compounds that will boost testosterone? Icarrin which is a compound extracted from Horny Goat Weed is just such a compound. In one study it was determined that Icarriin had testosterone mimetic properties and could be used to treat hypoandrogenism or a lack of androgens in the body. Icariin also is a PDE-5 inhibitor as is the active in Viagra. So Icariin can also help you get your libido back online after a steroid cycle. Libido seems to be directly related to the amounts of androgens circulating in the body which is a direct function of HPTA. So far we have covered two compounds that can help to recover HPTA function. Are there more?

    Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C) is an increasingly promising compound on the market and has very interesting properties. I3C can be found in leafy green, cruciferous vegetables such as green cabbage and broccoli. So what is the buzz around I3C? I3C has been purported to have cancer fighting abilities. Interestingly enough its properties include controlling and metabolizing estrogen. Wow! I3C also blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissue so it adds to the SERM properties of Trans-Resveratrol. Recently study's have shown that Trans-Resveratrol may have some agonistic properties on e-2 estrogen receptors. In this PCT protocol we include I3C as a secondary ER modulator to make sure that we cover all the bases.

    Lastly, we want to include something to inhibit the rise of SHBG or Sex Hormone Binding Globulin. What does SHBG do? SHBG binds to sex hormones (estrogen and Testosterone) and basically renders them inactive in the body. We have all heard about testosterone boosters that free bound testosterone. Bound testosterone means that SHBG has bound to it and rendered it inactive as it is not able to bind to androgen receptors to have the effects we are looking for to help us keep the gains we have worked so hard for. Divanil is one such compound that has a higher affinity for SHBG than testosterone and consequently estrogen as well.



    Estrogen

    So now we have recovered testosterone and are on our way to homeostasis. We are now three weeks into our PCT and have blocked estrogen from attaching to estrogen receptors in the breast tissue but as testosterone production has skyrocketed, so has estrogen production, especially since we are inhibiting SHBG?s effects. So what should we do to inhibit estrogen?s effects?

    This is where an Aromatase Inhibitor (AI) comes into play. Great! Let?s just eradicate estrogen since it is so evil! Well, this isn?t a good idea on several levels. Estrogen is important for muscle generation as well as immune system health and bone health. This is why a lot of people get sick in PCT. Since testosterone and estrogen have likely been suppressed our immune systems are not as strong and have trouble fighting off infection.

    There are several AI's on the market and here we will cover one popular choice in 6-oxo. 6-oxo is a very effective compound which is not a complete inhibitor therefore, it let's some estrogen exist while eradicating a majority of it. The idea with AI's is to control estrogen and let it come back to a normal level at a slowed rate. The dosing scheme we will employ starts high in the beginning, and tapers the dose down. This dosing scheme will also help to minimize the possibility of any estrogen rebound as we let the estrogen levels return to a normal state at a controlled rate. AI's should be run towards the end of PCT (weeks 3-4 through weeks 6-7).

    Prolactin

    Prolactin is another hormone we must be concerned with. It is released from the
    Pituitary when dopamine is suppressed. Prolactin gyno has symptoms such as puffy nipples, lumps under the nipples and a clear leakage of fluid from the nipples when squeezed.

    There are several ways to combat these sides. Cabergoline, high dosages of B-6 and L-Dopa have been reported to help with prolactin gyno. Cabergoline has a reputation as being highly toxic. B-6 can be toxic at high dosages for extended periods and L-dopa can have unwanted sides as well. All of these compounds are meant to be taken for short periods only to quell the sides of prolactin. If you feel ill or experience numbing in the extremities stop dosages immediately.

    Tying it all Together

    Now we are going to tie all this information together into a protocol to follow for PCT. We have laid out all the problems to solve so let?s cover them now as a refresher.

    Recover HPTA
    Boost Testosterone
    Control Estrogen
    Inhibit the effects of SHBG
    Aromatase Inhibition/Estrogen control

    What products can we take that will accomplish all of our goals?
    Trans Resveratrol ? Estrogen control
    I3C ? Estrogen control
    Icariin ? Testosterone Booster
    Divanil ? SHBG binder
    6-oxo (Trione) ? Estrogen control/LH booster/Testosterone booster
    ZMA ? Purported to boost HGH secretion

    Now we will go over the dosing protocol and the products we will use to formulate our PCT.

    Weeks 1-4

    Trans-Resveratrol/Icariin - Post Cycle Support from Anabolic Innovations has seen some very good results for PCT from cycles as mild as H-Drol to cycles as harsh as Bold/P-Plex/Trena. The estrogen receptor modulating properties of Trans-Res are well documented in independent studies. While this compound is promising we still need to include other estrogen antagonistic compounds to be sure all the bases are covered.

    I3C - Indole-3-Carbinol has been shown to be an excellent estrogen metabolizer as well as having antagonistic properties on estrogen receptors in breast tissue. It is a great add to our protocol and helps rid the body of estrogens as well as protecting against gyno.

    ZMA - Zinc, Magnesium Aspertate. Although studies are mixed on this compound it is a good add as it is purported to boost GH production. GH production is highest while we sleep and the addition of valerian root to most ZMA products helps with a deeper sleep and more REM which is when GH is released. The body is also depleted of magnesium and zinc as we exert high levels of exercise induced stress so the addition of ZMA helps to keep those levels in check.



    Weeks 3-5

    One element we haven't talked about is cortisol. Cortisol is a stress hormone that when released makes the body hold onto adipose fat tissue. As the body starts to recover it?s test production the release of cortisol goes up. To combat this rise we add in a cortisol blocker such as 7-OH a metabolite of DHEA. I like Lean Xtreme for this job as it also contains fat metabolizing compounds such as Forskolin and Green Tea Extract. I include this for three weeks to combat any rise in cortisol and to help with leaning out during PCT without cutting caloric intake.

    Weeks 4-7

    As we continue on our path to recovery it becomes important to control the rise of estrogen as well as the rise of SHBG. We also want to continue to increase the production of testosterone. Two compounds I like to use for this are 6-oxo and Activate Xtreme.

    6-oxo - Controls estrogen by eliminating the aromatase enzyme which is responsible for conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Because 6-oxo is not a complete aromatase inhibitor it allows some conversion of estrogen which is preferable in PCT. By inhibiting the production of estrogen it throws the T/E ratio out of whack and prompts the pituitary to release more LH thus boosting the production of testosterone.

    Activate Xtreme - This divanil/icariin based testosterone booster helps by utilizing two pathways. Divanil is an SHBG binder with a higher affinity for SHBG than testosterone or estrogen. Since we are inhibiting estrogen conversion it's boost of estrogen isn't a big deal. Icariin as we have covered is a testosterone mimetic which boosts the production of testosterone in the body.

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    This is fantastic! One question though, how would one dose these products week to week?

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    Talking


    i was goin to say the same thing..i was tryin to make up my own over the counter pct but u totally just took all the stress off of my mind..thank u..this is excellent my man..but also like said above...how would u dose this??

    •   
       

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    perfect timing as I am in PCT mode right now. Question would Mass FX be OK to replace the Activate Xtreme since it too has Divanil and how about Drive, would it have any value in this OTC PCT?

    Thanx Lucky:good:

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    good post man this should be sticky!!

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    Thanks guys. To answer the dosing questions a general scheme would be like this

    Weeks 1-4 PCS/I3C/ZMA PCS would be dosed 2 caps in the morning and 2 in the evening preferably 8-12 hours apart. I3C would be dosed 400-600 mgs every day and ZMA at bedtime as directed on teh bottle.

    Weeks 4-7 6-oxo This would begin high at 400 mgs and taper down to 100 in the last week. 400/300/200/100

    Weeks 3-6 Lean Xtreme or any other cort blocker you like at 3 caps every day.

    You can substitute your favorite products for whatever I used. I used those products because I know they work for me but I wrote this as an overall guide not an end all be all PCT to be followed to the letter.

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    thats looks solid too me..thanx alot man..excellent work!

    also is this an overall pct for ne PH??...wuld it also b effective on lets say a cycle of mdrol/epidrol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAwrestler88 View Post
    thats looks solid too me..thanx alot man..excellent work!

    also is this an overall pct for ne PH??...wuld it also b effective on lets say a cycle of mdrol/epidrol?
    I would be comfortable using it for any PH/DS. The choice is really up to the individual ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FLAwrestler88 View Post

    also is this an overall pct for ne PH??...wuld it also b effective on lets say a cycle of mdrol/epidrol?
    First of all if your age is correctly displayed, your not old enough to be doing ANY PH/DS, second of all if your asking if you can use this for m-drol search superdrol, that should answer your question.

    Its probly the best OTC PCT out there. But like the man said.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmangiarelli View Post
    I would be comfortable using it for any PH/DS. The choice is really up to the individual ...

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    Make this a sticky in your forum

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    I agree great write up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmangiarelli View Post
    I would be comfortable using it for any PH/DS. The choice is really up to the individual ...
    Man, you are tempting me to not using NOLVA in my PCT. I already have....

    post cycle support
    6-oxo
    cortisol control
    I3C

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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    Man, you are tempting me to not using NOLVA in my PCT. I already have....

    post cycle support
    6-oxo
    cortisol control
    I3C
    All you need is ZMA and it's cheap ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmangiarelli View Post
    All you need is ZMA and it's cheap ...
    dman...i really appreciate your input. Let me put this scenario in front of you and see what you think. I have some old tablet nolva that expired in '07. The tablets are individually sealed. I have this, but not sure if it is ok to use. Since i have this nolva, couldnt i just go ahead and use this instead of buying liquid nolva for $30-50? Whats your opinion since i already have it on hand, but yet it is expired.

    thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by msucurt View Post
    dman...i really appreciate your input. Let me put this scenario in front of you and see what you think. I have some old tablet nolva that expired in '07. The tablets are individually sealed. I have this, but not sure if it is ok to use. Since i have this nolva, couldnt i just go ahead and use this instead of buying liquid nolva for $30-50? Whats your opinion since i already have it on hand, but yet it is expired.

    thanks
    Well the expiration is there for potency reasons. I guess with Post Cycle support and I3C with the Nolva you should be fine ...

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    this is a great post, i agree it should be a sticky. what are the opinions on using super cissus rx for aid in cort. control? esp. in something mild (h-drol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MM11 View Post
    this is a great post, i agree it should be a sticky. what are the opinions on using super cissus rx for aid in cort. control? esp. in something mild (h-drol)
    I don't know about cort control but it definitely helps with dried out joints ...

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    Good info on a great prolactin controller Vitex (Chaste Berry) here

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    finished Epistane cycle. My PCT & recomp is like this:

    Advanced PCT
    Lean Extreme
    Mass FX
    Drive
    6-0x0
    PowerFUL
    Anabolic Pump

    What do you think? Too much?

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    Quote Originally Posted by luclyluciano View Post
    finished Epistane cycle. My PCT & recomp is like this:

    Advanced PCT
    Lean Extreme
    Mass FX
    Drive
    6-0x0
    PowerFUL
    Anabolic Pump

    What do you think? Too much?
    OVERKILL! aPCT/LX/MassFX/6-oxo

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    "Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C) is an increasingly promising compound on the market and has very interesting properties. I3C can be found in leafy green, cruciferous vegetables such as green cabbage and broccoli. So what is the buzz around I3C? I3C has been purported to have cancer fighting abilities. Interestingly enough its properties include controlling and metabolizing estrogen. Wow! I3C also blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissue so it adds to the SERM properties of Trans-Resveratrol. Recently study's have shown that Trans-Resveratrol may have some agonistic properties on e-2 estrogen receptors. In this PCT protocol we include I3C as a secondary ER modulator to make sure that we cover all the bases."




    What would you think about using DIM rather than Indole-3-Carbinol?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    "Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C) is an increasingly promising compound on the market and has very interesting properties. I3C can be found in leafy green, cruciferous vegetables such as green cabbage and broccoli. So what is the buzz around I3C? I3C has been purported to have cancer fighting abilities. Interestingly enough its properties include controlling and metabolizing estrogen. Wow! I3C also blocks estrogen receptors in breast tissue so it adds to the SERM properties of Trans-Resveratrol. Recently study's have shown that Trans-Resveratrol may have some agonistic properties on e-2 estrogen receptors. In this PCT protocol we include I3C as a secondary ER modulator to make sure that we cover all the bases."




    What would you think about using DIM rather than Indole-3-Carbinol?
    So far the research that supports the use of DIM has been sponsored by the manufacturers of DIM. In my research I have not come across anything that would lead me to believe DIM is any better than I3C although, it is more expensive. Dinoii has written pretty extensively on this subject and I trust his opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmangiarelli View Post
    So far the research that supports the use of DIM has been sponsored by the manufacturers of DIM. In my research I have not come across anything that would lead me to believe DIM is any better than I3C although, it is more expensive. Dinoii has written pretty extensively on this subject and I trust his opinion.
    Well I happen to have DIM on hand - and I was hopeful .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beau View Post
    Well I happen to have DIM on hand - and I was hopeful .....
    You can certainly use it in place of I3C. I was assuming you still needed to buy it. You can sub it in for I3C and you will still reap the benefits ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmangiarelli View Post
    You can certainly use it in place of I3C. I was assuming you still needed to buy it. You can sub it in for I3C and you will still reap the benefits ...
    Thanks - I'll give it a shot.

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    fascinating. will give this a shot next time i'm in need of PCT.

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    I have been following this exact PCT protocol and have nothing but good things to say about it, no puffy nipples, no major weight loss, increase in libido and strength stays reasonable.

    Very happy with this pct and may consider using it with my m-drol or h-drol cycle (with a SERM on hand INCASE)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Craigmatthew View Post
    I have been following this exact PCT protocol and have nothing but good things to say about it, no puffy nipples, no major weight loss, increase in libido and strength stays reasonable.

    Very happy with this pct and may consider using it with my m-drol or h-drol cycle (with a SERM on hand INCASE)
    Thanks for the feedback. I'll be running an M-Drol cycle later in the year and using this protocol as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hockey Rulz View Post
    I'm not going to do you research for you but don't mess with M-Drol at your age. That stuff is SERIOUS business, you need to left and eat 4-5000 calories to gain over the years, trust me dude you will thank us later.

    DON'T mess with it until a few more years go by, and you know EXACTLY what you are doing.

    I made one little mistake on my cycle (miscounted) and my liver suffered from it. I'm fine now, but my stool became pale just from a simple math error. Pale stool = VERY bad liver reaction.

    OK?

    Not trying to lecture or flame, but I just wanted go give you an FYI, do what you want, but MORE is not better with that stuff. Just EAT! LIFT! and enjoy the test your body is raging on now.
    Agreed, it's amazing the kind of gains you can get when simply upping your calories, it's not as exciting as taking a new 'compound' but the gains will come, and your body wont take a beating as it would on others 'compounds'. Last year I simply increased my protein intake 30-50grams per day through whole foods, and upped my carbs 100-150 grams per day and got awesome results (around 6-7lbs) which in on par with some products out there of the mild kind.

    Also not trying to lecture, but it really is impressive how much a slight increase in food can force growth. Something to think about when looking to try new potentially harmful supplements.

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    good decision on the increase in carbs, too many people only increase protein and wonder why barely anything changes. 500 extra calories a day = 1 lb a week right, just gotta make them clean calories

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    yea i kno..i hear it all the time..i mean all my friends have done the original SD and like 2 mdrol cycles already and i hate how they always brag tho i dont understand how they do it bcus one of my friends just uses novedex xt for a pct and im lik wtf?? i never get that lucky..but im jus doin sum research now so when i do decide to do it l8r dwn the road..i know wat im doin with it

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    dmangiarelli can u give us a sample pct for hdrol/SD/havoc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brolic View Post
    dmangiarelli can u give us a sample pct for hdrol/SD/havoc
    Each one or a stack?

    It's hard to give a one size fits all because people react differently. I can tell you what I would take and how I would take it and you can make your decision from that ...

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    yes i wanted to know ur pct ifu took hdrol/hav/sd

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brolic View Post
    yes i wanted to know ur pct ifu took hdrol/hav/sd
    First off, I wouldn't take Havoc/H-drol/SD. That is three methyls plus SD is one of the harshest DS out. I would do something like Havoc/Propadrol or Havoc/Bold or even Havoc/Trenadrol.

    For PCT:

    Post Cycle Support
    I3C
    ZMA
    6-oxo

    And for the Trenadrol I would probably have b-6 or Vitex on hand for prolactin ...

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    i didnt mean, run SD/hav/hdrol at once

    i meant a run of each. how would u run oxo? u start at the 4 week of pct,

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    i didnt mean, run SD/hav/hdrol at once

    i meant a run of each. how would u run oxo? u start at the 4 week of pct,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brolic View Post
    i didnt mean, run SD/hav/hdrol at once

    i meant a run of each. how would u run oxo? u start at the 4 week of pct,
    Yeah, I wasn't sure what you meant.

    H-Drol PCT

    Post Cycle Support
    ZMA
    then at week 3-5 6-oxo 300/200/100

    Havoc is tricky because i haven't seen people respond the same.

    I would run:
    PCS
    I3C
    ZMA
    Week 3-6 Activate Xtreme/6-oxo

    SD:

    PCS/I3C/ZMA/(maybe depending on sides)Vitex
    Week3-6 Activate Xtreme/6-oxo

    Since all three are methyls and they mess with BP, lipids, prostate, etc I would run cycle support throughout ...

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    why does disel test always get picked over AX?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brolic View Post
    why does disel test always get picked over AX?
    Maybe people like it better? I have talked to Matt Cahill several times and I trust him. He has never given me bad advice. Chuck Diesel, not so much ...

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