[wiggabomb]

I'm going to use epistane at 20/20/20/20 Maybe 2 weeks more?

Post Cycle Support for 4 weeks (1 scoop a day)
SERM: Nolvadex 40mg/40mg/20mg/20mg

Trying to get rid of saggy chest mostly, any input would help.
I have been searching for 3 days now and this is what I came up with.

[dmangiarelli]

on cycle and through PCT you should use cycle support @ two scoops/day.

PCT should be:
Post Cycle Support
I3C
ZMA
6-oxo tapered down starting in week 4


Good luck ...

[mattikus]

Originally Posted by dmangiarelli

on cycle and through PCT you should use cycle support @ two scoops/day.

PCT should be:
Post Cycle Support
I3C
ZMA
6-oxo tapered down starting in week 4


Good luck ...

x2 ^^^ That is one of my favorite protocols for a cycle like this. And check out the kickass deal on the big three,(Epistane/Cycle Support?PCS) that stack is da sh*t!

[wiggabomb]

so you dont think i should use Nolvadex?

[mattikus]

I like to have the nolva on hand as a backup, and if you follow the protocol above you probably will not need it at all. I have used that protocol with great results and felt great as well. If you want additional natural support, Sustain Alpha is a topical product developed for PCT that also works well.

Personally I would not use the nolva unless I had to.

[UTADAHOLIC]

what about any additional liver support? or would AI CS cover that adequately?

[wiggabomb]

Originally Posted by dmangiarelli

on cycle and through PCT you should use cycle support @ two scoops/day.

PCT should be:
Post Cycle Support
I3C
ZMA
6-oxo tapered down starting in week 4


Good luck ...

so how would i dose I3C, ZMA & 6-oxo?

[mattikus]

Originally Posted by UTADAHOLIC

what about any additional liver support? or would AI CS cover that adequately?

Worked fine for me..

[mattikus]

Originally Posted by wiggabomb

so how would i dose I3C, ZMA & 6-oxo?

I3C 400 mg every day. I like to start a week early just to get it in my system.

ZMA every night before bed.

6-oxo I would probably wait to use at the end of PCT, as some believe it will further shutdown. dmangiarelli's suggestion to taper off starting in week 4 is a good suggestion.

[wiggabomb]

Originally Posted by mattikus

I3C 400 mg every day. I like to start a week early just to get it in my system.

ZMA every night before bed.

6-oxo I would probably wait to use at the end of PCT, as some believe it will further shutdown. dmangiarelli's suggestion to taper off starting in week 4 is a good suggestion.

so whats a good way to taper 6-oxo?

[neoborn]

Most Importantly!

No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT

SERM + P.C.T Guide

Now please, anyone is free to discuss this and tell me I've totally got it wrong or need to add something. Now with that said:

Bloodwork! I cannot / we cannot say this enough that it is highly recommended to get bloodwork so you know how to run your PCT and WHAT you need to run on your PCT.

1. SERM - Torem, Ralox, Nolvadex etc

Example Torem Dosing: - As per Interlocutor
Day 1-5 = 120mg Torm
Day 6-21 = 60mg Torm
Day 22-28 = 30mg Torm

Alternative Torm Dosing:
Week1: Days 1-3: 120mg Torm, Days 4-7: 90 mg Torm
Week2: 60mg Torm
Week3: 60mg Torm
Week4: 30mg Torm

You should monitor this carefully and will most likely bounce back rather quickly with this SERM as per reports given by experienced users on the board.


Example Nolva Dosing:
Wk1: 40,40,40,20,20,20,20
Wk2: 20mg everyday
Wk3: 10mg everyday
Wk4: 10mg everyday

I am not sure why anyone would go above these dosages, as per Dinoii, as the large body of studies / material backs up dosages no more than 40mg and mainly focuses on 20mg / 10mg dosage schemes. More is not better

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe.

3. AI - Formestane(Highly Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - Good reviews or I have used: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

NON-Rx SERM + P.C.T Guide

1. Non Rx SERM - Post Cycle Support(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended)

2. Cycle Support - Cycle Support(Highly Recommended), Liver Longer, Perfect Cycle, Liv52, NAC, SAMe, Advanced PCT.

3. AI - Formestane(Recommended), Sustain Alpha(Recommended), 6-OXO / Androstenetrione.

4. Anti-Cort - X-Lean, Retain 2, Lean Xtreme, 11-OxO, Abliderate (8oz), B-Androstenetriol

5. Test Booster - Good reviews or have used the following: Sustain Alpha(Recommended), Drive, T-Force, Activate(original).

All of the products and protocols above are open to discussion. This is not a hard and fast list but a guide to help.

With that said Epistane style products on a non extreme usage style cycle are going to use a less extreme PCT. Better not to have huge hormonal swinging in either direction. Calm, steady and relative therapy is recommended.

Things To Note

1. You will most likely want to run your AI (Formestane) for a month or so after finishing your PCT therapy to make sure you experience no estrogen rebound / flooding. If you run your PCT for four weeks, as you ramp down on your SERM etc ramp up on your Formestane / AI so, to as keep your estrogen under control. There has been talk of SERMs actually exacerbating this problem due to kicking test up too high then *boom!* man boobs!

2. Once done your PCT, and AI time ramp it down slowly until about one month after PCT


3. Gynomastia - >>>Read This!<<< and >>>This!<<<

4. Real Gynomastia Before & After's:


5. Love your Liver!

[mattikus]

^^You just can't beat Neo's ultimate PCT post.^^

[Kiwi]

[quote=mattikus;1342965]I like to have the nolva on hand as a backup, and if you follow the protocol above you probably will not need it at all. I have used that protocol with great results and felt great as well. If you want additional natural support, Sustain Alpha is a topical product developed for PCT that also works well.

Personally I would not use the nolva unless I had to.[/QUOTE]

How would you know whether you needed to use nolva? What is is that you would specifically look for to determine this?

Would anyone be willing to estimate what proportion of guys doing a non-extreme Epistane pulse would be likely to need a SERM like nolva vs. those that could use a simple supplement based PCT?

[10195079]

You use the nolva to combat any estrogen related side effects caused by steroid or prohormone use.

In general when a body builder introduces steroids or prohormones into their body, their aim is to create an environment that is androgen rich (or that is at least elevated compared to their natural levels).

In reponse to the introduction of an external source of androgen the body shuts down its natural testosterone production. Once a body builder ceases to introduce androgen into their body there is a period of time where there is no external source of androgen supply and no natural testosterone production (shut down). Therefore you are left with an internal environment that is estrogen rich and testosterone depleted.

Masculinity is dependent upon a balance between testosterone and esterogen, with the right balance men become physically superior (than women) and express characteristics associated with being a male (facial hair). With the wrong balance, such as esterogen rich environments associated with shut down, males lose their masculinity and begin to develop feminine characteristics (like ***** tits).

Nolva acts by blocking esterogen receptors, in a testosterone depleted envirnonment (associated with induced shut down) this is benefical because it prevents males from developing estrogen related sides.

Nolva will not assist with reversing shut down or correcting your HPTA, generally this process must occur naturally. The length of time that it takes for your HPTA to correct itself is dependent upon the individual and their circumstances.

[wiggabomb]

Not sure how to taper the 6-oxo on 4th week of pct.

I'm also trying to get rid of a little gyno and 6-oxo seems a little sketchy?