OTC PCT Dosage(s)

daveydoodle

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It seems that the best OTC PCT product is Anabolic Innovations Post Cycle Support. I'm wondering if anyone has adjusted the dosages with positive results. The product says two (2) capsules twice daily. Has anyone differed from that with effective results, either more or less? Additionally, has anyone added any products such as 6OXO or another test booster to AI's Post Cycle Support?
 
nosnmiveins

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stick to recommended dose of PCS

as for adding other things with PCS for PCT, id say a test booster and cort blocker would be all u needed
 
daveydoodle

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I understand that Post Cycle Support has the SERM Trans Resveratrol, however I was thinking the current cycle that I'm on would not require a SERM, and a OTC PCT could be used. I do have Tamox, Clomid, etc. from other, stronger cycles, I just didn't think it would be necessary this time. I guess my question is regardless of the strength or the 'harshness' of the product, is the dosage suggestion on the bottle adequate? Should a test booster be added to compliment the PCT?
I'm currently on a Phera Plex / Epistane cycle, relatively low dosage.
 

rmp103

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im looking for the same info.. im looking to do a cycle of ids bulk tabs, and im gonna take the post cycle support.. which really is my only choice. has to be OTC and legal to buy.. i cant buy any pct's that require perscriptions due to my job.

any 1 know if this pct is good enough for ids's bulk tabs? im also going to take the cycle support 1week before the bulk tabs cycle and through untill i finish the pct.

any help would be greatly appreciated.

p.s Anabolic Innovations has a 10% discount code untill 2/4/08
(NFL08)
 
nosnmiveins

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I understand that Post Cycle Support has the SERM Trans Resveratrol, however I was thinking the current cycle that I'm on would not require a SERM, and a OTC post cycle therapy could be used. I do have Tamox, Clomid, etc. from other, stronger cycles, I just didn't think it would be necessary this time. I guess my question is regardless of the strength or the 'harshness' of the product, is the dosage suggestion on the bottle adequate? Should a test booster be added to compliment the PCT?
I'm currently on a Phera Plex / Epistane cycle, relatively low dosage.

Stick to the does on the bottle, it was MADE to compliment Havoc and its other epithio clones, the test booster isnt necessary but it would be wise to run one in PCT to get libido back up and a cort blocker would be beneficial but once again not "necessary"
 

RoidGracie

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I'm running only AI PCS and ALRI Restore next time around. I'm not using 6-OXO anymore, which was pretty much all I used a couple times in the past.
 
zbtboy

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Just run the normal dosage. Add some DHEA too. For whatever reason, for me at least, these two played very nice together. :)
 

sly

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I'm 9 days in using 2 caps twice a day after an 8 week Superdrol/Mtrn cycle. My mood is improved , libido is coming back slightly. So far so good. I will stick with the recommended dosage this time. Next time I will double it as I like to experiment.:D
 
Ziquor

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AI's pct is a great product & I include in every one of my pct's - but to use it alone as a serm is insane. After a cycle your estrogen levels shoot up through the roof and can cause gyno and permanent test shutdown, among other lovely things. Trans-Resveratrol is NOT a serm. It's a natural herb found in grapes/red wine. It can reduce estrogen by SMALL percentages (5% or LESS). It's main benefit is increased sex drive & improved blood flow. Real (prescription) serms reduce estrogen by 85-95% which is what's needed after a cycle. Why not get a SERM when you can get them for less than mostly all OTC pct products? Serach for improper pcts, especially involving Super/clones. There's a few guys on here who did their 1st cycles with otc supps only that got delayed gyno a couple months after the end of their cycle and the only way to get rid of it without screwing yourself up more is a non steroidal serm. But once these guys got delayed gyno after their cycles they got rid of most of it with a serm but get it really easily now. I'd suggest getting a serm immediately before it's too late.
 

RoidGracie

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Point #1-
PCS is a SERM, or at least, that's what the makers insist.

Point #2- You asked "Why not get a SERM when you can get them for less than mostly all OTC post cycle therapy products?"

How about, it's illegal, bottom line. Sure, you can get it online, and there is so much talk about using a "research" defense", but the bottom line is, for 99+% of the people using it for these reasons, they are using it illegally. Rats, cows, pythons, mice....sure are of alot of animals needing SERMS all of a sudden. Also, SERMS are being used in excess from what I'm reading and they have their own risk of serious health issues.

I agree with you though on one point, and that point is that certain substances are going to require a prescription SERM, and in that case, if you aren't willing to get the SERM, you have no business doing the substance, or at least, you will suffer the consequences if you use it and don't have a SERM. That is why I won't use those substances (M-1T, Superdorl, maybe even Pheraplex)..So, I guess I'll have to just settle for 17 1/2 arms instead of 18"...I can live with that.

Cheers.
 
Ziquor

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Research chems are not illegal unless you wrongly use them 'wrongly'. And getting prescription Nolva is extremely easy as it is a prescription but NOT a controlled med. Meaning getting the script & the tabs are VERY easy. You can get an entire pct's worth of tablets for about $20. So why use an 'herb' that'll stop 5% of estrogen production when you can use a real serm like your supposed to, that eliminates 90% of estrogen. If you wanna screw your body up, that's your choice. Cheers...
 

Bwill

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Research chems are not illegal unless you wrongly use them 'wrongly'. And getting prescription Nolva is extremely easy as it is a prescription but NOT a controlled med. Meaning getting the script & the tabs are VERY easy. You can get an entire post cycle therapy's worth of tablets for about $20. So why use an 'herb' that'll stop 5% of estrogen production when you can use a real serm like your supposed to, that eliminates 90% of estrogen. If you wanna screw your body up, that's your choice. Cheers...
Well, THE expert on the legal side of steroids (Rick Collins) states that the mere possession of 'Research Chemicals' is illegal and their so-called 'research' status offers no defense. If it is still worth it to you to buy them that is your choice, however you should probably shy away from offering legal advice. Also, if you could explain how getting a script for a legit SERM is 'very easy' I would like to hear it. Sure a good doctor could hook you up if you are having some issues, but I don't see a legit doctor giving you a script for Nolva in anticipation of an upcoming PH cycle.
 
CROWLER

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Trans-Resveratrol IS a SERM

Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs) are a new class of drugsthat bind to estrogen receptor (ER) and elicit agonistic or antagonistic responses, depending on the target tissue.

It acts as a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) and
regulates proteins involved in DNA synthesis and cell cycle.
Resveratrol also affects the activity of transcriptional factors involved
in proliferation and stress responses, such as NF-kB, AP1 and Egr1

Signorelli P and
Ghidoni R Resveratrol as an anticancer nutrient: molecular basis, open
questions and promises. J Nutr Biochem. 2005 Aug;16(8):449-66.

I have personally spoken to Rick Collins the authority on anabolic steroids legalities and author of Legal Muscle. You CAN indeed be arrested for ordering possessing or using research chems and it does NOT matter if you say it is for research on an animal on tissues etc.

Personally I am not willing to take the risk and therefore will use POST Cycle Support for ALL cycles I do. Especially when I think about 2 online research chem companies have recently been raided by the Federal govt who seized various items including their computers which of course has the credit card numbers and addresses of all their customers.

At this point IMO it is a crap shoot who is on the other end of the computer when a person places their order.

Is POST Cycle Support strong enough for use by itself for EVERY single anabolic steroids or Prohormone cycle ? No one knows for sure. I personally have and others have used it as our only post cycle therapy and it worked GREAT! BUT each person may be a little different.

On the other hand people who have a predisposition for gyno who even DO use a prescription SERM can get gyno.

If you feel comfortable ordering and using research chems I would continue doings so but would STRONGLY urge you to at least consider using POST Cycle Support along with it. Seeing some of the lab reports on some online research chems I would NOT want to rely on them completely.



CROWLER
 
Bruth

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I'm running only AI PCS and ALRI Restore next time around. I'm not using 6-OXO anymore, which was pretty much all I used a couple times in the past.
Sounds like a plan, this is what I would do if I ever run Havoc (I dont really trust a lot of companies Epi). maybe add some 7-Keto for cort.
 

RoidGracie

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I think I've been vindicated. You are not legally going to get a script, because you don't have breasts like a woman, I hope anyway. Also trans-res is not an herb, is it? It may come from a fruit, but I don't consider fruits herbs. Unless you are talking about a gay guy who is named Herb. I guess it could be considered an herbal supplement though.
Ziquor, you are wrong, they are illegal, and I don't use any compound that requires a dangerous and illegal serm such as Nolva. Although I may screw up my body, it won't be from not using a dangerous research chemical, but I do appreciate your concern.
Double Cheers matey.
 

RoidGracie

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Hey Bruth, I'm getting what feels like big time bounce back in the boys from the Restore, I'm liking this. I'm personally looking forward to running PCS and Restore together next time. However, as I said, I wouldn't consider using any compound with a high risk of sides, I think the strongest I'm considering is H-Drol but I've done 1-AD years ago, a two week M-1T cycle, and a 4 week WinZtrol using nothing more than 6-OXO and while I never got gyno, I did suffer libido loss and PCS and Restore are having a big effect on my balz and I think my libido is going back up.
Good luck.
 
Ziquor

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Docs prescribe SERMS to men. For gyno, excess estrogen, etc. quite a bit. Getting a script for a non-controlled med is easy. Non-controlled meds have very minimal restrictions. Not to mention (hint) it is 100% legal & easy as hell to do online. A doc will write you a script & there;s not one thing anyone (dea) could do, because it's their law which says it's ok. SERMS are necessary. And to say Resveratrol is a serm is like saying near-beer will get you drunk. It may do what serms do, but not nearly enough for recovery from gear or stronger ph's. Like I said PCS is a great product. Enough to take for a pct without a real prescription serm? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Unless you want delayed gyno or male breast cancer, maybe shutdown ypur natural test for the rest of your life. It's like someone getting their foot chopped off and the doctor prescribing aspirin. Yeah it's a pain med, but nearly useless in that situation unless combined with morphine. And since when has supplement companies & reps become big tobacco? Sure take pcs as a standalone pct from Superdrol - you'll be fine... NOT
 

RoidGracie

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Ziquor, I'm sure you are correct about the Superdrol, wouldn't debate that point. Also, if you tell me you do get a script from a doctor for these serms, then kudos to you. What size bra do you wear? kidding of course. I do not agree about your comparison of trans-res to near beer because we really don't know yet how powerful it is at estrogen control but it seems to be quite adequate for some cycles. Again, I'd say it really depends on the compound, and also the individual. I'm ok, I'll never use a research serm.
Cheers

Edited to fix the word beer, I had spelled it bear, probably because I don't drink anymore.
 
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RoidGracie

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Besides, the tall man will win against Michael Myers because he has brass and silver balls.
 
Bruth

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Docs prescribe SERMS to men. For gyno, excess estrogen, etc. quite a bit. Getting a script for a non-controlled med is easy. Non-controlled meds have very minimal restrictions. Not to mention (hint) it is 100% legal & easy as hell to do online. A doc will write you a script & there;s not one thing anyone (dea) could do, because it's their law which says it's ok. SERMS are necessary. And to say Resveratrol is a serm is like saying near-beer will get you drunk. It may do what serms do, but not nearly enough for recovery from gear or stronger ph's. Like I said PCS is a great product. Enough to take for a post cycle therapy without a real prescription serm? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Unless you want delayed gyno or male breast cancer, maybe shutdown ypur natural test for the rest of your life. It's like someone getting their foot chopped off and the doctor prescribing aspirin. Yeah it's a pain med, but nearly useless in that situation unless combined with morphine. And since when has supplement companies & reps become big tobacco? Sure take pcs as a standalone post cycle therapy from Superdrol - you'll be fine... NOT
Def need a SERM for S-Drol. The only thing I would consider with out a SERM is Epi at a low-moderate dose.
 

RoidGracie

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We need some more real world studies on the ability and effect of trans-res as compared to script serms. My guess is, many times the serms are overkill, however, I can understand the better safe than sorry mentality, nobody wants to be sporting A-cups on the beach with nuts like jelly beans.
 
machine528

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Maybe there are some people on this board that have used prescription Serms and also went the OTC serm route? I have seen a few logs of people running Epi or clones and just relying on AI PCS for their Serm. I dont recall reading any logs where these people developed gyno and suffered shutdown after their epi cycles. From everything that ive read i believe that AI PCS should be enough for an EPI cycle. I dont think i would feel comfortable doing superdrol, phera or M1t without having a prescription SERM on hand. Like i said hopefully someone whos done both can chime in and give their 2 cents.
 

RoidGracie

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Machine, I tend to agree with your comments, tis also pretty much what I've read and I've read a lot. The risk is definitely higher with some compounds but for my upcoming H-Drol run, it will only be PCS and Restore (along with some other ancilliaries for BP and liver). For superdrol or the other high side compounds, do so at your own peril.
 
daveydoodle

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In response to the original question I posted - I do believe that will try running AI's PCS this time, with a few additions, and not running the "research chem SERM's". As I stated in the beginning, prior to any cycle I do, I always have prescription SERM's on hand, in case.
Additionally, I always do pre, mid and post cycle bloodwork with any and every cycle I run. I ran Phera/Epi at (what I'll call) a moderate dose, and have both pre and mid cycle bloodwork already. Once I complete the PCT, after having used AI's PCS I will post all three numbers for comparison.
Everybody responds differently, and any cycle is going to have too many variables to determine a diffinative answer as to OTC PCT's being 100% effective. As mentioned the substance run will play a large role in your personal PCT choice.
I start my PCT on 2/25 and will keep everyone posted as to my results, both numerically, and how I feel.
Thanks for the responses.
 
Ziquor

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I haven't been on here for a few days but it looks like some good points were made. I'd love to see some peeps who tried both routes, I won't be the guinea though...


Guinea-pig.jpg
 

stxnas

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I'd be interested in seeing comparisons from guys who have used both a SERM and PCS as well.

Let's hear it gents...
 
ProAnabolics

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what's a good post cycle for after a 30 day run of 50 mg's a day halodrol 50?
 
bigt405

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I have never used a prescription SERM, but I can tell you that PCS works for me. I used it as a stand alone following my last PP cycle, and it worked great.
 
Cub

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I ran Epistane 20/30/40/40 with nothing for PCT and I was fine. Have never tried a SERM or AI's. Starting a Superdrol cycle on the 18th (log is up in Cycle Info section) and will be using a SERM.
 
Cub

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Actually in saying that, I'd be interested in hearing from those that have ran Superdrol without a SERM for PCT and see how they pulled up. The more substances I can avoid taking the better.
 

Cordeen

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Just run the normal dosage. Add some DHEA too. For whatever reason, for me at least, these two played very nice together. :)
This was after your cycle correct?

Was the cycle Epi based and straight or pulse?

Thanks
 

stxnas

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I have never used a prescription SERM, but I can tell you that PCS works for me. I used it as a stand alone following my last PP cycle, and it worked great.
Thanks for the kind words. I remember reading your posts about POST Cycle Support, but I can't recall what thread it was in. Could you link the thread with your feedback?

Thanks in advance.

Cordeen, I want to say that ZbtBoy ran POST Cycle Support as a standalone. I know Crowler ran PCS during an Epi pulse though.
 

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Trans-Resveratrol is NOT a serm. It's a natural herb found in grapes/red wine. It can reduce estrogen by SMALL percentages (5% or LESS). It's main benefit is increased sex drive & improved blood flow. Real (prescription) serms reduce estrogen by 85-95% which is what's needed after a cycle..
The fact that a SERM reduce estrogen was new to me:blink:
I thought it actually was the opposite and that is why you ramp up the AI. SERM's block estrogen from acting on estrogen receptors and by doing that in the brain(Hypothalamus) the body will take it as a false sign of low estrogen and increase the aromatisation. Right or wrong?

Z
 
Ziquor

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BigT what cycles have you run & what were your blood work #'s before & after?
 
Ziquor

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Like I said many times before I love the idea of a otc post cycle therapy or SERM. It just isn't a reality. The more research I do the more grim it looks. It's very clear that with Halo/clones you may not need much of a PCT at all but then again it has almost no androgenic activity whatsoever. It's be far the weakest androgenic ph. However if you plan on using a stronger PH (Superdrol/M-Drol, Epi/Havoc, Phera, etc) or ANY gear your screwed without a prescription serm. The definition of a serm is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. What most people don't realize is you could call something that raises estrogen a serm technically. The whole point of Nolva, for example, is that it blocks/reduces 80%+ of all estrogen which is what is needed for a proper PCT. It's also proven to do many other positive things as well and get your body back to normal after a cycle. Without Tamox or Torem, etc. there's a REALLY good chance your body may be f 'd up for the rest of your life. Delayed gyno can take a year sometimes to show up without a proper post cycle therapy. And once you get it you're stuck taking a prescription serm for life not to mention many other problems. My point being, as it's been all along, I just read about a dozen government studies on Trans-Resveratrol and ALL lead to the same outcome. It is PROVEN to raise estrogen but there is NO signifigant evidence at all showing it can reduce estrogen. Even if it did reduce estrogen it wouldn't nearly be enough for a proper post cycle therapy, IF IT EVEN DID which it doesn't! Here's just one of MANY studies and for those who don't know an agonist is something that increases the production of whereas an antagonist is something that decreases the production of. Example Tamox & Torem are estrogen antagonists.






Funded by:
IDPH, Penny Severns Breast and Cervical Cancer Research Fund
DOD BCRP; Grant Number: DAMD-17-99-9334, T32CA 70085
Avon Foundation; Grant Number: SPORE CA89018-01


Keywords
Resveratrol • ER • agonistic activity • gene arrays • p21CIP1/WAF1 • breast cancer cells



Abstract
Resveratrol (Res) is a phytoestrogen found in grapes and present in red wine. Res has been shown to function as an estrogen receptor (ER) agonist, but it remains unclear whether it may also exert antagonist activity. Our aim was to study the effects of Res at both the molecular (TGF gene activation) and the cellular (cell growth) levels in breast cancer cells stably transfected with wild-type (wt) ER(D351) and mutant (mut) ER (D351Y). TGF mRNA induction was used as a specific marker of estradiol (E2) responsiveness. Res caused a concentration-dependent (10-8-10-4 M) stimulation of TGF mRNA, indicating that it acts as an estrogen agonist in these cell lines. The pure antiestrogen ICI 182,780 (ICI) blocked Res-induced activation of TGF, consistent with action through an ER-mediated pathway. Further studies that combined treatments with E2 and Res showed that Res does not act as an antagonist in the presence of various (10-11-10-8 M) concentrations of E2. To determine whether Res can be classified as a type I or type II estrogen (Jordan et al., Cancer Res 2001;61:6619-23,), we examined Res with the D351G ER in the TGF assay and found that Res belongs to the type I estrogens. Both Res and E2 had concentration-dependent growth inhibitory effects in cells expressing wtER and D351Y ER. Although the pure antiestrogen ICI blocked the growth inhibitory effects of E2, it did not block the inhibitory effects of Res, suggesting that the antiproliferative effects of Res also involve ER-independent pathways. Interestingly, Res differentially affected the levels of ER protein in these 2 cell lines: Res down-regulated wtER levels while significantly up-regulating the amount of mutD351Y ER. Co-treatment with ICI resulted in strongly reduced ER levels in both cell lines. Gene array studies revealed Res-induced up-regulation of more than 80 genes, among them a profound activation of p21CIP1/WAF1, a gene associated with growth arrest. The p21CIP1/WAF1 protein levels measured by Western blotting confirmed Res-induced significant up-regulation of this protein in both cell lines. In summary, Res acts as an ER agonist at low doses but also activates ER-independent pathways, some of which inhibit cell growth.
 
bigt405

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BigT what cycles have you run & what were your blood work #'s before & after?
I have taken superdrol, phera-plex, sostonol 250, mega-zol and ect. I guess you get the picture. As you can probably guess when I first started taking some of this stuff like the old M1t I had no idea what I was getting, but I started doing research and learning as much as I could. In the begining I did not get blood work,but now I get it done every six months. As a matter of fact I just went yesterday to have my blood drawn. When the test come back I will get back with the results.
 

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Novice butting in

Hey guys,

Sorry to butt into your exchange but I have a dilemma. Relatively new poster/beginner. Been training on/off since high school. Quick question: I'm 230lb, 18BF, 5'11", 36 yrs. Going for a leaner, "smaller" frame, trying to shed some body fat.

A friend w/ a Supps store suggested I try this stack:

Methylstane/Lipodrene for 2 weeks.
Overlap Gaspari Thyrotabs + 3rd degree burn for 2 weeks.
Gaspari TTs for last 2 weeks.
I'm taking Lipidex EFAs daily (4 morning/4 pre bed)

Unfortunately, he did not explain anything and mentioned nothing about post cycle support.

After 6 days (15 doses total) of Methylstane, I feel like I'm bulking up - not my goal - and I want to stop taking them. Am I in danger of self-damage by stopping Methylstane now w/o PCS? What would you suggest I take for a beginner's PCS? Your help is greatly appreciated.

Steve
 
CROWLER

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Yea that is what the Clinics in Florida used to say and they are now closed down and the owners/workers are up on Federal charges. I hate to think the Fed now has the names, addresses, CC info etc of the people who ordered from them.



CROWLER
 
Ziquor

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Damn people please quite PM'n me 30 times day asking for sources, that was my fault tho. That one went from a pm to the forum and got me shi!, lol oh well. But Crow I know you got it out for me because I'm in the middle of your marketing campaign of how T-R can be used as a stand alone post cycle therapy but the fact of the matter is once I see bloodwork & proof then I'll never use a serm again, but I don't see it happening so until then I'll use both. I use trans-res in the form of the spectactular pcs product you make & I have 3 bottles of it, I just don't believe (nor do many others) that it can be used as a acceptable serm without messing your body up.
 
Ziquor

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Edit: the feds don't go after people anyhow - ever. They go after companies. Not to mention you can't go after someone for doing something legal.
 
CROWLER

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But Crow I know you got it out for me
Zirquor,

I am not really sure how you got that idea. I do not recall any thread or post I made that would seem like that.

I am sorry you feel I am out to get you. If you want to talk please feel free to send me a PM or email me directly at [email protected]

Thanks


CROWLER
 
Ziquor

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I got a very dry serious sense of humor & I'm never serious to boot so don't mind me just keep putting out excellent products. But back to the subject at hand I so heartedly wish there was a natural serm out which was proven with the same results as the 'evil' kind. Just like I wish there was gear or ph's out that were 'natural' and gave you awesome results like Super. But I do understand that there is a couple of new ph's coming out with good q ratios and are extremely mild as well maybe eliminating scription serms altogether, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
 

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Wrong forum

...?

I didn't realize I was in the wrong thread - it should be titled "self-proclaimed know-it-alls".

Best of luck
 

RoidGracie

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I thought a dry sense of humor meant that there was at least something funny about it?
:toofunny:
If you are the only person that thinks something is funny, is it?
I've already eliminated script serms, you don't have to wait.
I don't think the people the Feds went after would really be here to tell you that you are wrong, they may be in prison....
 
Ziquor

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I thought a dry sense of humor meant that there was at least something funny about it?
:toofunny:
If you are the only person that thinks something is funny, is it?
I've already eliminated script serms, you don't have to wait.
I don't think the people the Feds went after would really be here to tell you that you are wrong, they may be in prison....
Really? Start naming people that have been arrested for the possession of a non-controlled medication... oh that's right it's not possible. Maybe Herion, Crack, or even Oxycontin but not meds that aren't even controlled. What PH's/Gear have you run with a prescription serm? What were your blood test results before & after?
 
Ziquor

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I can see running nothing for H-Drol/clones. Even when pulsing Epi/Havoc naturals can be used most of the time. But when running a stronger PH or real gear for that matter ED? I know 3 people just on AM alone who ran a PH and not a actual SERM afterwards who all suffered something life changing. Two got gyno which keeps re-occuring & one lost his libido completely - it slowly got worse & worse until he had bloodwork done and found his body was barely producing natural testosterone whatsoever. Now all 3 have to take prescription meds for life and with just a few weeks of a proper pct all these issues could've been avoided. At least this is what the doctors say but then again what they hell do they know.
 

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