Otc Serm

[babyblu]

Femarelle

Not sure how effective for us, but has shown to be effective on post-menopausal women I believe.

Recent studies prove that Femarelle®:

Provided fast acting relief (average 5-7 days).
Alleviated menopausal symptoms in 3 out of 4 patients.
Relieved hot flashes in 76% of the patients.
Improved headaches in 68% of the patients.
Improved joint and muscle discomfort in 70% of patients.
Promoted Bone Health.
Had no effect on the breast tissue and the uterus.
Had no reported adverse events.
Tofupill/Femarelle (DT56a): a new phyto-selective estrogen receptor modulator-like substance for the treatment of postmenopausal bone loss.



Se-cure Pharmaceuticals has developed a chemical composition working as a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator- a SERM, in the body. The estrogen receptor bondage allows the substance to provide both menopausal symptoms relief and prevents the bone loss process, through osteoblast activity, without affecting the breast and uterine tissues.

The product developed is called Femarelle™, it is a product derived through a unique enzymatic procedure that creates a specific biochemical composition proven to combine the treatment of menopausal symptom relief and bone loss.

Rich in scientific backup proving its high efficacy and safety of use, Femarelle™ represents the next generation treatment for the management of menopause.

Femarelle™ enjoys the same efficacy as HT in the relief of menopausal symptoms, providing relief of the main symptoms, such as hot flashes, night sweats etc. for 75% of the women.

At the onset of menopause, following the decrease of estrogen in the body, the bone undergoes a yearly decline of BMD of 2-3% per year in the 5-7 years following menopause, leading to the development of osteoporosis, a disease affecting 1 in 2 postmenopausal women today.

As a product that incorporates the treatment of menopause and bone health, Femarelle™ serves marketing wise two important fronts. Most women reaching menopause (80%) go to their physician following the onset of the encumbering symptoms encountered in this stage of their life, from the point of view of the health-care provider providing a product with a high efficacy for the symptoms but with the added advantage of providing an added protection of their bone health, is an ideal solution. The second front that is achieved deals with the physician psyche; most were used to provide hormonal treatment as the ideal solution for the management of menopause, Femarelle™ as a SERM that acts through the same mechanism of estrogen receptors, enables to introduce Femarelle™ as the next generation treatment for the management of menopause, providing the same efficacy but as the next generation Femarelle™ provides a high safety profile, decreasing the symptoms and maintaining bone health without affecting the sensitive tissues of the breast and uterus.

As an OTC derived from a natural source, Femarelle™ is perceived by the consumer as a safe and preferable option.

Providing a sound scientific backup, high efficacy and with no side effects Femarelle™ is welcomed by the physician and is easily taken by the patient for the long-term treatment of menopause and the prevention of osteoporosis.



Articles

Menopause. 10(6):522-525, November 2003.
Yoles, Israel MD 1; Yogev, Yariv MD 2; Frenkel, Yair MD 1; Nahum, Ravit MD 2; Hirsch, Michael MD 2; Kaplan, Boris MD 2
Abstract:
Objective: To evaluate the efficacy of Tofupill/Femarelle (DT56a), a novel phyto-selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), in preserving bone mineral density (BMD) in postmenopausal women.

Design: The study sample consisted of 98 healthy, postmenopausal women who were randomly allocated, on a double-blind basis, to receive either 644 mg/d DT56a (study group) or 344 mg/d DT56a supplemented with calcium (low-dose group) for 12 months. Each participant was assessed with a comprehensive health questionnaire, a detailed physical, and laboratory and pelvic sonogram examinations at entry and every 3 months thereafter. BMD was assessed by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (Lunar) of the lumbar spine and femoral neck before the study began and after 12 months of treatment.

Results: After 12 months of treatment, BMD had increased in the study group by 3.6% in the lumbar spine (P = 0.039) and by 2.0% in the femoral neck (NS). In the low-dose group, BMD had decreased in the lumbar spine by 0.6% (NS) and by 0.6% in the femoral neck (NS). Comparison of the change in bone density between the groups yielded a significant difference for the lumbar spine (P = 0.037). Neither group showed a change in endometrial thickness and sex hormone levels nor reported any side effects of treatment.

Conclusions: Tofupill treatment in postmenopausal women increases BMD without unwanted estrogenic effect. Tofupill appears to be a promising phyto-SERM for the prevention of postmenopausal osteoporosis.

(C)2003The North American Menopause Society




DT56a (Tofupill/Femarelle) selectively stimulates creatine kinase specific activity in skeletal tissues of rats but not in the uterus.Somjen D, Yoles I.Institute of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Hypertension, Tel-Aviv Sourasky Medical Center, 64239, Tel-Aviv, Israel. [email protected]

The novel natural product DT56a (Tofupill/Femarelle), derived from soybean, has been shown to relieve menopausal vasomotor symptoms and to increase bone mineral density with no effect on sex steroid hormone levels or endometrial thickness. In the present study, we compared the effects of DT56a and estradiol-17beta (E2) on bone and cartilage (Ep) of immature or ovariectomized female rats, by measuring the changes in the specific activity of the BB isozyme of creatine kinase (CK). Single short-term injection of high doses of DT56a induced estrogenic activity in bones and uterus similar to that of E2. When administered in multiple oral doses, DT56a stimulated skeletal tissues similarly to E2, but whereas E2 increased CK specific activity in the uterus, DT56a did not. The selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) raloxifene (Ral) blocked the stimulation of CK by either DT56a or by E2 in all tissues tested. Our findings suggest that DT56a acts as a selective estrogen receptor modulator stimulating skeletal tissues without affecting the uterus. The effect of DT56a on other systems, such as the vascular and the central nervous system, are currently under investigation.

PMID: 12943748 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

bb

 

[babyblu]

No one interested in a legal OTC SERM??

I would like some knowledgeable members to chime in here and opine whether this would work in PCT or not?

bb

 

[celc5]

subbed

 

[yeahright]

I'm curious.....as to why it is an OTC medication. Most medicines start out prescription and (if proven to be overwhelmingly safe) can become OTC. It's odd to have somethign start out as OTC if it a new chemical.

 

[babyblu]

Maybe because its derived from a soy-bean? I think this is popular in Europe. But Im not a chemist so I have NO idea why. Your question is definitely valid since it appears to be marketed to effect the body.

 

[bullneck]

Very interesting!, i too would like to know more about this.

Bull

 

[babyblu]

Cant believe none of the bro-ologists havent chimed in here.

 

[thesinner]

So....are we trying to suggest OTC menopause medication as an alternative for post cycle therapy?

Femarelle seems like it's an isoflavone.

Well, if I get mood swings, hot flashes, and stop having my period after my next cycle, I'll be sure to check this stuff out. Until then...........

 

[babyblu]

Actually it the topic was raised on M&M by supermod Benson, and NP's Dsade said he was going to find someone to analyze the compound. And the research says it works like a SERM in the body.

Of course sinner you seem to be brimming with bro-ducation. So perhaps I should accept what you say is law. Of course I guess I could say that Clomid is a fertility drug, so one should only add it to their PCT when they want to get pregnant? Or that Nolvadex is used to treat breast cancer, therefore one should only add it to their PCT to prevent a potential mastectomy?

 

[thesinner]

Actually it the topic was raised on M&M by supermod Benson, and NP's Dsade said he was going to find someone to analyze the compound. And the research says it works like a SERM in the body.

Of course sinner you seem to be brimming with bro-ducation. So perhaps I should accept what you say is law. Of course I guess I could say that Clomid is a fertility drug, so one should only add it to their post cycle therapy when they want to get pregnant? Or that Nolvadex is used to treat breast cancer, therefore one should only add it to their PCT to prevent a potential mastectomy?

Well, until we figure out exactly what the compound is (calling it Femarelle doesn't cut it for me as a chemical name), I'm gonna hold off.

Genistein and Daizdein are both soy derived, both function as SERMs, and I feel bad for any fella who's used them during post cycle therapy. They work fantastic for menopause, though. They're naturally occuring. And (I'm guessing) they're probably what's in this product.

I think accepting anything any ******* says on a message board as law is a pretty ignorant thing to do. You are completely free to disagree with my opinions, but I don't think that should me to disrepect me for having them.

 

[rpen22]

DT56a is the name of the "unique extract of tofu concentrate" that is the main active.

 

[babyblu]

The disrespect was your first post. I simply brought a product up for discussion because it has SERM-like qualities. The commercial use of the product is irrelevant. DNP is used to make pesticides and explosives. Yet few would argue that for BB uses, it is NOT an effective fat burner. Same for Clomid & Nolva and HGH and lots of other products that have 'approved uses' which are totally irrelevant to their applications within the BB community. Yet your wisenheimer response was "this product is for menopausal women so therefore it cant be effective" which is NOT logic in any fashion.

I am not saying the product IS effective for post cycle therapy. I am saying it is going to take more evidence than your wise guy response to convince me that this is or is not effective.

Femarelle is the commercial name. However if you had read the studies I posted you would have seen:

DT56a (Tofupill/Femarelle) selectively stimulates creatine kinase specific activity in skeletal tissues of rats but not in the uterus.Somjen D, Yoles I.Institute of Endocrinology, Metabolism and Hypertension, Tel-Aviv Sourasky Medical Center, 64239, Tel-Aviv, Israel. [email protected]

bb

Well, until we figure out exactly what the compound is (calling it Femarelle doesn't cut it for me as a chemical name), I'm gonna hold off.

Genistein and Daizdein are both soy derived, both function as SERMs, and I feel bad for any fella who's used them during post cycle therapy. They work fantastic for menopause, though. They're naturally occuring. And (I'm guessing) they're probably what's in this product.

I think accepting anything any ******* says on a message board as law is a pretty ignorant thing to do. You are completely free to disagree with my opinions, but I don't think that should me to disrepect me for having them.

 

[bound]

subbed

 

[ImJ2x]

It's worth a look...
(especially for those of us on light pulse cycles, specifically designed to minimize shutdown, and requiring less intensive PCT, such as resveratrol)

 

[jasonschaffin]

Maybe Ginko? I posted a few studies in the article forum. Smart guys, read em and tell me what ya think.

 

[bound]

Anything ever come of this? There's another product with the same chemical called Tofupill.

 

[RoidGracie]

PCS is my OTC Serm.

 

[Ziquor]

The haven't seen any reliable studies on DT56a. I seen a result here: http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Oropeza,MV - but this basically states that DT56a aka tofupill, did not affect estrogen levels in women tested with DT56a vs placebo. The whole point of a serm in pct is to reverse shutdown and get your normal test levels back to normal. Typically serms work by blocking estrogen which in turn increases test production. If something doesn't even affect a womans estrogen levels you may as well take a placebo, or a vitamin and say that's an ok pct. Not me.

 

[bound]

The haven't seen any reliable studies on DT56a. I seen a result here: http://lib.bioinfo.pl/auth:Oropeza,MV - but this basically states that DT56a aka tofupill, did not affect estrogen levels in women tested with DT56a vs placebo. The whole point of a serm in pct is to reverse shutdown and get your normal test levels back to normal. Typically serms work by blocking estrogen which in turn increases test production. If something doesn't even affect a womans estrogen levels you may as well take a placebo, or a vitamin and say that's an ok pct. Not me.

awesome. Thanks, I was wondering if anything ever came of it.

 

[ATH3386]

The study was in 4 people.

If this is an OTC serm.. or something.. Id rather get some tamox, letro, torem and just be safe. When you can buy them on a loophole without much worry, I wouldn't worry. Theyre not even that expensive..

 

[avgBdybldr]

This was posted on the U.S. National Library of Medicine
and the National Institutes of Health:

Tofupill/Femarelle (DT56a): a new phyto-selective estrogen receptor modulator-like substance for the treatment of postmenopausal bone loss.Yoles I, Yogev Y, Frenkel Y, Nahum R, Hirsch M, Kaplan B.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, Israel.

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the efficacy of Tofupill/Femarelle (DT56a), a novel phyto-selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM), in preserving bone mineral density (BMD) in postmenopausal women. DESIGN: The study sample consisted of 98 healthy, postmenopausal women who were randomly allocated, on a double-blind basis, to receive either 644 mg/d DT56a (study group) or 344 mg/d DT56a supplemented with calcium (low-dose group) for 12 months. Each participant was assessed with a comprehensive health questionnaire, a detailed physical, and laboratory and pelvic sonogram examinations at entry and every 3 months thereafter. BMD was assessed by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry (Lunar) of the lumbar spine and femoral neck before the study began and after 12 months of treatment. RESULTS: After 12 months of treatment, BMD had increased in the study group by 3.6% in the lumbar spine (P = 0.039) and by 2.0% in the femoral neck (NS). In the low-dose group, BMD had decreased in the lumbar spine by 0.6% (NS) and by 0.6% in the femoral neck (NS). Comparison of the change in bone density between the groups yielded a significant difference for the lumbar spine (P = 0.037). Neither group showed a change in endometrial thickness and sex hormone levels nor reported any side effects of treatment. CONCLUSIONS: Tofupill treatment in postmenopausal women increases BMD without unwanted estrogenic effect. Tofupill appears to be a promising phyto-SERM for the prevention of postmenopausal osteoporosis.

PMID: 14627860 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Ziquor]

I love the idea of an all natural legal serm but I gotta go with ATH here. Since loopholes (at least 2 different ones that I know of) in the system make unscheduled meds, even though they are scipted meds, easily accessible in a couple of different ways I want my body to come back to normal as much as possible after a cycle. I know a couple guys on here who ran ph cycles w/o proper pct's and no serms (one with Superdrol which was REALLY stupid) and they have had really bad lipids & cholesterol even a year+ after their cycles, without ever doing another one. My one bud says he can't even have sex anymore cause he has no desire whatsoever & he won't go to a doc for follow up tests because he's too nervous/stubborn. That shi! terrifies me.

 

[RoidGracie]

Maybe your buddy should give a bottle of PCS and something like DTH a try to see if he bounces back...I think the PCS helped me a bit, I'm also liking the ALRI Restore although I just started that.

 

[Ziquor]

I mentioned these to him but he doesn't listen to anyone except the dumb-ass voice in his head. I've heard quite a lot of great things for AI's pcs for libido boosting during pct.

 

[babyblu]

I love the idea of an all natural legal serm but I gotta go with ATH here. Since loopholes (at least 2 different ones that I know of) in the system make unscheduled meds, even though they are scipted meds, easily accessible in a couple of different ways I want my body to come back to normal as much as possible after a cycle. I know a couple guys on here who ran ph cycles w/o proper post cycle therapy's and no serms (one with Superdrol which was REALLY stupid) and they have had really bad lipids & cholesterol even a year+ after their cycles, without ever doing another one. My one bud says he can't even have sex anymore cause he has no desire whatsoever & he won't go to a doc for follow up tests because he's too nervous/stubborn. That shi! terrifies me.

Natural selection it sounds like to me.

bb

 

[Ziquor]

Natural selection it sounds like to me.

bb

lol -exactly :gore:

 

[RoidGracie]

Wouldn't touch Superdrol with my 10 foot pole.

 

[Interlocutor]

No one interested in a legal OTC SERM??
I would like some knowledgeable members to chime in here and opine whether this would work in post cycle therapy or not?
bb

this would very strongly depend on it's actual properties. just because something is a selective estrogen receptor modulator does not mean that it does exactly what we want in a post cycle therapy product. there are many tissues in the body, and for post cycle therapy we require very specific effects. if something would act estrogenic in the breast and as antagonist in the liver, it would still be a SERM, but not at all what we want.

if we look at the studies, we can draw some careful conlusions about this product:

1. anti-osteoporosis/bone health/joints = estrogen receptor agonist in bone/joints = good
2. no effect on sex steroid hormone levels = no agonist/antagonist on receptors concerning HPTA = this would make it useless no?
3. no effect on endometrial thickness = no agonist/antagonist on receptors in uterus = neutral?
4. no effect on breast tissue = no agonist/antagonist on receptors in breast = neutral? or not what we want? (we want antagonist in breast tissue)
5. good agains heat flushes = have no idea where they come from, has to be some kind of estrogenic effect = potentially bad?
6. no info on lipid values (estrogen activity in liver)

seems to be the typical isofkavone, with some estrogenic effects here and there, and not very much there where we want it in PCT (antagonist in breast/HPTA, agonist in liver/bone/joint).

i do not really see where this has potential. i'd first have to see much mor on the effects on hormones/HPTA and where it exactly acts as estrogen agonist.

THE INTERLOCUTOR

 

[celc5]

2. no effect on sex steroid hormone levels = no agonist/antagonist on receptors concerning HPTA = this would make it useless no?

Wow, excellent post that is chalked full of information :clap2:

What are your thoughts on the 4 popular serms and their effects on HPTA activity?

 

[Interlocutor]

Wow, excellent post that is chalked full of information :clap2:
What are your thoughts on the 4 popular serms and their effects on HPTA activity?

there is a LOT of conflicting studies and information available. first of all it is IMHO MORE important to make sure you get a "good" SERM and not some bunk stuff, than which SERM you have. any SERM is better than no SERM (or a vial of salt water, in many cases).

i.e. it's much better for you to use tamo which works, than torm which is bunk (which seems quite common, and which often gives torm a bad rep).

also, there are always dosing protocols to take into consideration (as many of the most common recommendations we see do NOT really take component half-life, clinical studies, or even anecdotal feedback from medical practice into account). then it depends strongly on the stack you use. IIRC e.g. formestan has been shown to increase the half-life of tamoxifen - this then has obvious implications on the dosing/sides/toxicity of tamo which are rarely taken into account.

such dosing criteria/overshoots may strongly contribute to a lot of the sides people report with certain SERMs.

personally, my ranking would be:

1. Torm
2. Ralo
3. Tamo
4. Clomid

considering effect vs. sides vs. toxicity. i have used 1-3 personally (pharmacy/prescription grade), but not 4.

THE INTERLOCUTOR

 

[celc5]

TI, I see your point with "good" serms and I hear you loud and clear. IF I order a salt water serm, I usually find someone to run a mass spec test on it to be sure it's legit.

Interesting point about the AI/serm combination and half life. I'm guilty of simply blowing off that off last time I read about formestane increasing tamox 1/2 life.

On that note, I'm a strong believer that in terms of estrogen control, the "typical" serm dosing protocols are almost always about double of what they should be.

IMO, the 4 popular serms all do a nice job in gyno prevention and that quality is probably the most important consideration. However, it's interesting that the only serm that you haven't tried is clomid. Clomid is the one with the most scientific research to back it's HPTA recouperating effects. Since torem was #1 on your list, what's your opinion on the hype of how good it works to "bring the boys back."

Personally I've dosed torem 120(90)/60/30/15 and then again 60/45/30/15. The boys bounced back within 10 days both times, although both cycle were exceptionally light in terms of supression (unfortunately without bloodwork though).

 

[Interlocutor]

Interesting point about the AI/serm combination and half life. I'm guilty of simply blowing off that off last time I read about formestane increasing tamox 1/2 life.

there is very little information on this available, but seems due to formestane metabolization somehow delaying tamo metabolization. now, formestane is a steroidal AI, which most likely (would really like someone who KNOWS chime in) is metabolized in a pretty similar way than other steroidal AIs (such as ATD, 6-OXO, 6-bromo, Aromasin/Exemestane, etc.). tamoxifen is a triphenyl, which also is probably metabolized in the same way than other triphenyls (other SERMs). IMHO there is a pretty high risk that ANY steroidal AI (but possibly not letro and adex) may have drug/drug interactions (specifically half-life increases/metabolization delays) with any triphenyl SERM. actually, we (that is I) don't even know the impact of drug/drug interactions between the steroids we take and their metabolization and SERM half-life, if we take SERM on-cycle.

this may be a factor which is often overlooked in the discussions on delayed gyno, IMHO. imagine you'd extend half-life of tamo from 9 to say 18 days while on the AI? can you imagine the serum levels you have accumulated? i've tried to attach a (wholly unscientific) chart comparing possible serum levels of two common dosing protocols (40/40/20/20 and 40/20/20/10) with the effects of normal (9 day) and speculatively extended (18 day) half-life during post cycle therapy due to possible steroidal AI drug-drug interaction. i've also added the long-term 20mg/daily supplementation baseline to better illustrate the overshoot (added sides, stronger IGF-1 suppression, etc., without increasing effect), and a 50% baseline, where we can possibly expect effects to drop - and there you see a strong delay between 40/20/20/10 at normal half-life (50% baseline drop at around day 34) and 40/40/20/20 (50% drop at extended half-life around day 45). all of this is obviously speculative, but may serve to illustrate the point that we may be far off the scale with current SERM recommendations. this may impact delayed gyno, retention of gains, and overall sides.

i now tend to believe that when combining SERM and steroidal AI, the SERM should probably dosed somewhat lower (to compensate for the potentially increased half-life) than if used standalone.

On that note, I'm a strong believer that in terms of estrogen control, the "typical" serm dosing protocols are almost always about double of what they should be.

there seems to be increasing concern about this, especially if we now have closer looks at such things like drug-drug interactions, half-life issues, etc. than in the past.

IMO, the 4 popular serms all do a nice job in gyno prevention and that quality is probably the most important consideration. However, it's interesting that the only serm that you haven't tried is clomid. Clomid is the one with the most scientific research to back it's HPTA recouperating effects. Since torem was #1 on your list, what's your opinion on the hype of how good it works to "bring the boys back."

i quite liked torm, but had some libido issues, which i did not have on Ralo (which i didn't notice taking at all). i would say from a strength/efficiency perspective torm seems better, but Ralo seemed to me a more "neutral" compound, maybe not as fast, but totally free of visible sides (for me).

Personally I've dosed torem 120(90)/60/30/15 and then again 60/45/30/15. The boys bounced back within 10 days both times, although both cycle were exceptionally light in terms of supression (unfortunately without bloodwork though).

i've done 120(3)/90(4)/60/60/30 at that time based on other people's recommendations, which i now think is suboptimal, considering compound half-life etc. based purely on half-life, i'd now probably go 120(5)/60/60 or 120(5)/60/60/30 or 120(5)/60/60/60 for torm, depending how the cycle went. i did ralo at 120/60/60 and found it side free and effective (but that cycle was not very suppressive, though laden with androgenic sides). i'm currently going with tamo at 20(5)/10/10 and 6-bromo (AX aPCT) at 3/2/1 for a light 3-week 1-test based cycle.

BUT my personal experience also seems to differ somewhat from others: i have some slight asymmetric pubertal gyno (now trying to cut down to the bone to prepare for surgery). i tend to get itchy chest/nips from a lot of things (including 6-bromo standalone, DHEA, havoc, etc.).

in the past, i've used short-term nolva for this (which seemed to work fine), but now found that cabergoline seems to greatly alleviate such symptoms. this seems to indicate some prolactin related issues here, and i am not sure if prolactin control isn't generally hugely underrated in post cycle therapy and gyno avoidance. i'm currently of the stance that if you think you're prone to gyno, are afraid of it, easily get itchy chest/nips, or got those on-cycle etc. one should IMHO (current thinking) always add 0.5mg cabergoline (cabaser or sogilen) every 3 days throughout post cycle therapy (30 days = 5 1mg tabs, halved, extend after post cycle therapy if you have enough). if you get sogilen or cabaser, this is IMHO great and inexpensive added anti-prolactin/gyno insurance. also greatly helps with libido.

are there any good writeups available about the role of prolactin and prolactin control in post cycle therapy? i get the feeling the issues of prolactin control on-cycle and in post cycle therapy are somewhat underrated, and that in many cases prolcatin issues may be confused with estrogen issues by the novice (then taking an AI or SERM, which may hep on the outside, but actually make matters worse).

i am still debating (with myself mostly) that generally SERM doses should probably adjusted downward, and maybe steeply downward if combined with a steroidal AI. however, we also have to take into consideration that if we take pharmaceutical/prescription grade stuff, we usually get (sometimes pretty small) tabs, which are sometimes difficult to split into more than halves, which makes optimizing dosage more difficult (not so much with liquid research chems, but my trust there is limited). the problem is that if you recommend low SERM doses this goes against the grain of "established" recommendations, that the user does not feel safe ("more is better") and that i don't feel safe myself ("what if it's insufficient and the guy gets long-term issues because of my advice?").

what i am pretty much concerned about is also that we see the same recommendations for about anyone. everyone seems to understand that dosage recommendations for anabolic steroids should depend on weight and BF%. i.e. the 5'5" at 170lbs would usually take lower dosage than the 6'2" at 240lbs. one may feel like a train wreck even on 30mg of havoc (i did, at 200lbs), the other may not get anything out of it even at 50mg.

still we always see for both the standard 40/40/20/20 tamo recommendation (also regardless of compounds/cycles used). this, IMHO, is nonsense. either it's to much for the the small guy, or insufficient for the big guy. i gives me the creeps when 170lbs guys go 40/40/20/20 on tamo or 120/90/60/30 on torm, and then complain about sides or loss of gains in post cycle therapy.

i have some clomid "just in case", but haven't used it so far. i'm 43 already, and i have lots of troubles with my eyes as it is (both schisis and retinal rift in one eye (next OP date is in 2-3 weeks), loads and loads of floaters and artefacts in both). i don't currently care to take anything which has such a bad rep concerning ocular sides (also one of the reasons i look at lowered triphenyl SERM dosings overall).

T.I.

 

[Evilmonkey]

Freaking WOW!!! Hats of to ya!

 

[celc5]

Freaking WOW!!! Hats of to ya!

I guess I need to go buy another print cartridge for that post

Excellent info TI! I'm sure I'll have more questions once I absorb all the info :cheers:

 

[Evilmonkey]

I guess I need to go buy another print cartridge for that post

Excellent info TI! I'm sure I'll have more questions once I absorb all the info :cheers:

Sorry... My head was still spinning from the bombardment of info...

 

[celc5]

Sorry... My head was still spinning from the bombardment of info...

Ha Ha Evil! That wasn't a bash at your post. Actually, I honest to goodness print out long informative posts like what TI wrote because I have an easier time absorbing print. :cheers:

TI, since you mention vision so often, I do have a few "floater fragments" and torem does NOT seem to affect them. AI's do NOT seem to affect them either inlcuding 6oxo, formestane, and 6bromo.

However, the AIs DO cause blurred vision for me, which disappates a few days after cessation. Is this cause for concern? I'm thinking it just alters the enzymes in my tears, but I have no science to back up that theory.