Thinking out loud

[LilPsychotic]

Just wanted to get an opinion on something that I've been thinking about lately. Do you think that the use of serms in post cycle actually may be the cause of all the gyno reports lately? Especially estrogen rebound related.
Think about it: Most of these designer compounds don't aromatize to estrogen, yet the cases of gyno (myself included) seem to be rampant. Do you think that the excess test produced as a result of using a serm eventually convert to estrogen, causing a buildup in the body, thus binding to tissue specific receptors, and appear as gyno weeks or even months after post cycle therapy? I could be totally wrong here, but just trying to make sense out of the cases of rebound gyno that I've seen and experienced after using designer compounds and serms. All comments or thoughts welcome.

 

[bound]

I've been reading A LOT on cycling lately, and there seems to be some link with gyno and serms. The whole superdrol plus nolva and delayed gyno is just too much not to be looked into, at least.
I have been thinking lately that with everyone yelling about using a serm after every single cycle, no matter how light, or how little shutdown seems to have occurred, that we've gone overboard with the serms. Perhaps it's gotten to the point where we've freaked each other out so much that we're actually overdoing the PCT and causing problems.
That's one of my theorys, at least. But then again, this is all just trends that I've noticed from reading logs and reports and such. Granted I've read a lot, we're talking hours of reading every night for weeks, but my opinion shouldn't count for much. I'm waiting until january to run my first cycle.
I'm just throwing out ideas.

 

[MentalTwitch]

I was thinking about this too. Im only running my Torem at 4 days 4 different doses for exactly this reason. I dontwant to over compensate and can always go back to fix it rather than be prone to it the next time i plan a PH cycle. People to help us in here...
theSinner
NeoBorn
Jomi
Matthew
and a few others....

 

[Movin_weight]

very interesting theory... makes sense

My own theory is that aromatase enzymes upregulate during the cycle since there is a lack of aromatizing androgens in the body throughout the cycle (do to low test and non-aromatizing PH)... then when we run a SERM and test levels increase, there is a massive conversion of test to estro (since serms don't have any effect on aromatase or E levels). Then when the SERM leaves our system and our up-regulated estro receptors in our tits come in contact with the elevated estro in the body... BOOM gyno!

 

[UNCfan1]

I started a thread about SD and gyno a little while back trying figure this out. This was one of the reasons that me and a few others thought.

But if u ran an ATD inversed or just running an ATD help with this? Maybe running an ATD at low doses after ur SERM would help?

I just don't know the more I read the more I get confused with this ****. Once I think I have it figured out I don't.

I will let more experienced guys chime in.

 

[Movin_weight]

i'v experienced this so called rebound on my last 3 cycles, however my most recent was the least of them all by far

during my last pct i ran e-form starting at day 7 of pct at 100mg and then tapered for roughly 3 weeks... i actually quit using the e-form about 3 days after i finished nolva and experienced very little rebound... my gyno did return slightly but there was zero tenderness what so ever, so yes i think the inverse AI idea is legit since what i did was similar

 

[bound]

I was under the impression that E-form was formestane, and not a great idea for PCT. Isn't it at least slightly suppressive?

 

[Movin_weight]

some pple claim it is, i'm sure at high enough doses it is... but at 100mg i don't think there would be much suppression

I don't mess with the whole ATD zero libido, possible androgen receptor antagonist thing

anyways i had blood work done right after this post cycle therapy and exactly 3.5 weeks after my cycle ended and Total T came back at 400 and Free T at 75 (35-155)... so i was pretty well recovered after 3 weeks, and chances are i was still on the rise because my LH was high range

estradiol was mid-range as well so all was gooood

 

[RenegadeRows]

Very good questions, we need to keep this thread going.

I think LilPyschotic has a good start on this.

Thoughts

We use SERMs for two reasons:
1) Kickstarting our test production after a cycle
2) Keeping gyno away

Now, #1 is great for immediately after PCT. We want to keep our gains as well as get our bodies test working again.

The problem is, once our test is up and running, we're continuing to run a SERM. I beleive this is acting like a natural test booster, forcing our bodies to produce more test.

While this is all well and good because a SERM will block the ER from forming gyno, once we stop dosing the SERM there will be a higher level of test, and therefor a higher level of estrogen which could trigger a rebound.

It also doesn't help that SERMs increase ERs.

Possible Solutions
I have been saying this for a while, about Epistane and SERMs as well.

More is not better.

Have you ever noticed that studies on gynecomastia, breast cancer, etc, have not gone over 20mg?

I think the possible solution lies in how alot of us are ending our PCT's on 20mg of Tamoxifen, for example. Alot of studies into treatment of gyno with Tamoxifen have been at 10-20mg.

Could the possible solution be that we're going too high in our doses? And whats happening is its leaving our body in a state of high test: high estrogen ratio? Maybe doing 40mg the first few days of PCT, and then going down to 20mg or lower for the rest of the PCT.

Personally I have always beleived in doing a strong taper to end a PCT, going down to as low as 10mg of tamoxifen for the last week.

 

[bound]

One of the things that I am wondering, is that IF folks ARE going overboard with the serm, is it with too high of a dose, for too long, or both?
Honestly, I'm with the crowd that thinks that there must be a better way than serms.
The other thing going on, I think, is the internet. It's the same as everywhere else. It's just become so easy to trade info with each other, that we're just hearing more of the stories about gyno. People naturally just talk about the bad stuff more than the good, which only adds to the paranoiya about gyno, and up creeps the serm overuse. On top of that, all this info has made steriods more accessable and acceptable in the community, and thankfully all the experienced guys are actually looking out for all us noobies. They are doing their best to try to drive home the point of being cautious and to be as carefull as we can, but these sorts of warnings always cause unrealistic fear and overcompensation in some.
And of course, only experience will really let you see what works for YOU. Hence the importance of blood work. (which is why I've been waiting so long to start my cycle, stupid health care.)

[Here's my utter newbie questoin for the day: Do serms actually work through some pathway to jumpstart the boys, or do they just regulate the estrogen while the boys restart on their own?]

 

[RenegadeRows]

One of the things that I am wondering, is that IF folks ARE going overboard with the serm, is it with too high of a dose, for too long, or both?
Honestly, I'm with the crowd that thinks that there must be a better way than serms.
The other thing going on, I think, is the internet. It's the same as everywhere else. It's just become so easy to trade info with each other, that we're just hearing more of the stories about gyno. People naturally just talk about the bad stuff more than the good, which only adds to the paranoiya about gyno, and up creeps the serm overuse. On top of that, all this info has made steriods more accessable and acceptable in the community, and thankfully all the experienced guys are actually looking out for all us noobies. They are doing their best to try to drive home the point of being cautious and to be as carefull as we can, but these sorts of warnings always cause unrealistic fear and overcompensation in some.
And of course, only experience will really let you see what works for YOU. Hence the importance of blood work. (which is why I've been waiting so long to start my cycle, stupid health care.)

[Here's my utter newbie questoin for the day: Do serms actually work through some pathway to jumpstart the boys, or do they just regulate the estrogen while the boys restart on their own?]

Good post. As I understand it, since your estrogen receptors are receiving no estrogen, that signals your brain which in turn signals your testes to start producing testosterone. Because the body doesn't produce estrogen, only testosterone which is then converted into estrogen via the aromatase enzyme (hence how Aromatase inhibitors (AI) ) work.

It's really amazing how God designed our bodies to work. They are designed to regulate and balance themselves. No wonder things like gyno happen when we throw the balance out of whack. It's a bit unnatural dont you think?

 

[Movin_weight]

I'v been doing a little research lately and this is the best way i have found to describe the actions of a SERM on test and estrogen

Like stated above the SERM blocks estrogen at different receptors throughout the body, so in response to that effect, via the negative feedback loop, the body signals for more testosterone so it can be converted

The pituitary gland then releases a surge of LH which signals the testes to produce more testosterone... In addition, a portion of this testosterone is then converted to estrogen via aromatase... so at the end of a post cycle therapy involving a SERM, you are left with elevated test AND estrogen

If you have ever had bloodwork taken while on nolva you will see that test, estro, and LH are all elevated

Also since SERMs also have such a long half life, it is often several weeks before it clears the system, so a person running a high dose of nolva for 4 weeks, typically won't clear the nolva for another 3-4 weeks after they discontinue use

So my conclusion is people who run these SERMs for too long, and at too high of a dose... are ending up with recovered test levels, but also significantly higher estrogen levels than there body is used too... thus the rebound several weeks down the road

and the whole test/estro ratio thing is bunk b/c pple who run test cycles can still get gyno

 

[srx600]

so?

So should we lower dose or duration? or both?

 

[EasyEJL]

So should we lower dose or duration? or both?

I'm thinking both

I would think that 20mg nolva first week, 10mg second week, then none, with ramping up a moderate AI dose after that to make sure there isn't a big estrogen surge.

Look back at logs from pre 2005 ban. See what the guys who were running 1-t + 4ad did for PCT. basically that is as suppressive as you can get compound wise. And what was their PCT? maybe nothing, chrysin, or 6-oxo. No serms, and not a huge amount of gyno reports either...

 

[Movin_weight]

agreed... 2-3 weeks of a SERM at low doses... maybe 30/20/10 for longer heavier cycles, and then 20/10/10 for your lighter cycles

SERMS are still the shiz for stimulating LH and jumpstarting test, but at the higher doses and longer duration your going to have elevated estro long after you discontinue the use of the SERM

And think about it... the people who use AI's along with there SERM are setting themselves up for even more probs! They are suppressing aromatization while running the SERM but when they drop the SERM along with the AI and think all is gravy and PCT is over... The SERM still remains in circulation for several weeks after discontinuation of the AI... so now that person's test and estro are still on the rise, and there estro receptors and aromatase enzymes are all up-regulated and ready for action, which results in a whole azz load of estrogen binding

maybe running a low dose AI for a couple weeks AFTER the disconinuation of the SERM is the way to go???

 

[MentalTwitch]

yea i think this has been more of an issue casue we are quick to tell people SERM and how to do it when really we have little idea exactly what dose we shoould be at.
This is why im doingmy Torem,4 days of each at 120/90/60/30 but i may not even go to 30.

 

[Movin_weight]

yeah that seems like a good approach, the higher dose does have benefits early in PCT... so normal dosing and a quicker taper might be a better way to go

 

[UNCfan1]

Damn good posts guys. I was thinking about SERM length as well. Nicely pointed out by movinweight that the half life is long. So I agree maybe 1-2 weeks of 20mg of nolva(example) would be plenty, that coupled with inversed ATD should hopefully bring everything back to normal.

 

[thesinner]

Some of these designers, although non-aromatizable, can still form metabolites which attach to ER's.

Two of the really popular ones would be Madol (pheraplex) and cheaply made superdrol clones.

A lot of these designers also appear to have a strong prolactin rebound. The only "legal" thing I know to help fight the prolactin rebound is supplementing large doses of Vitamin B6 and P-5-P (a more potent derivative of B6).

 

[pistonpump]

glad this came up. Ive been thinking and questioning serm use as well. There is no doubt it is great for restarting your HPTA but it is also toxic and used to treat cancer...designed for women so that should also have you questioning our use. Not to mention everyone seems to shout out SERM use but alot of people dont even know how they work or what they are. Noobs will just go out and buy some just because internet forum steroid guy said. anyway.

I would still suggest using a SERM for 1, 2, or 4 weeks maybe more as long as you use an AI of some sort after you come off. Sometimes i would think one week of SERM use would not even be long enough to jumpstart you but it would be better and faster than using nothing at all...My past few cycles i have used an AI or some sort for up to 6 weeks after cessation of the SERM. This method has been working for me. As long as you protect against the SERM rebound with an adequate dose of AI continue for a week or two (as the SERM clears) and begin a gradual taper with the AI. This taper may even last a month at a low dose because even AI's have rebound effects. Even now im taking very very low doses of ADED in the form of Alpha DriveXL, post post cycle. I did my standard Tamoxifen tapered down post cycle therapy, tapering up with Restore then back down with Restore, and moving along with AlphaDXL until that is eventually phased out and I am ready for a new cycle, with no tits. Thats what makes sense to me know and what has been giving me good results as well so i see no need to change it, at least the method, maybe tweak the compounds.

 

[EasyEJL]

Some of these designers, although non-aromatizable, can still form metabolites which attach to ER's.

Two of the really popular ones would be Madol (pheraplex) and cheaply made superdrol clones.

A lot of these designers also appear to have a strong prolactin rebound. The only "legal" thing I know to help fight the prolactin rebound is supplementing large doses of Vitamin B6 and P-5-P (a more potent derivative of B6).

What about powerfull? in theory I thought that had some anti prolactin effect

 

[Movin_weight]

glad this came up. Ive been thinking and questioning serm use as well. There is no doubt it is great for restarting your HPTA but it is also toxic and used to treat cancer...designed for women so that should also have you questioning our use. Not to mention everyone seems to shout out SERM use but alot of people dont even know how they work or what they are. Noobs will just go out and buy some just because internet forum steroid guy said. anyway.

I would still suggest using a SERM for 1, 2, or 4 weeks maybe more as long as you use an AI of some sort after you come off. Sometimes i would think one week of SERM use would not even be long enough to jumpstart you but it would be better and faster than using nothing at all...My past few cycles i have used an AI or some sort for up to 6 weeks after cessation of the SERM. This method has been working for me. As long as you protect against the SERM rebound with an adequate dose of AI continue for a week or two (as the SERM clears) and begin a gradual taper with the AI. This taper may even last a month at a low dose because even AI's have rebound effects. Even now im taking very very low doses of ADED in the form of Alpha DriveXL, post post cycle. I did my standard Tamoxifen tapered down post cycle therapy, tapering up with Restore then back down with Restore, and moving along with AlphaDXL until that is eventually phased out and I am ready for a new cycle, with no tits. Thats what makes sense to me know and what has been giving me good results as well so i see no need to change it, at least the method, maybe tweak the compounds.

yeah that is a problem on these boards... everybody just seems to repeat what they hear from other members with out any clue to what they are talking about

piston your gyno prone if i remember correct? what did you run for your last cycle?

 

[thesinner]

L-Dopa is a mild prolactin inhibitor. I think the plant sterol elevates prolactin, though (USP's seems to go for synergy in their blends).

I've never been a fan of PowerFULL. Not that it's a bad product, just that I respond to it a little too well. Recovery was amazing because I was getting 18hrs of sleep each day.

 

[Movin_weight]

Some of these designers, although non-aromatizable, can still form metabolites which attach to ER's.

Two of the really popular ones would be Madol (pheraplex) and cheaply made superdrol clones.

A lot of these designers also appear to have a strong prolactin rebound. The only "legal" thing I know to help fight the prolactin rebound is supplementing large doses of Vitamin B6 and P-5-P (a more potent derivative of B6).

Sinner curious where you got this info... it makes perfect sense as to why people develop gyno taking these products...

what do you think causes the increase in prolactin? i doubt it has anything to do with dopamine although that could be one factor? possibly the lack of aromatizable androgens causes the body to increase progesterone and prolactin to counter the effects of decreased estro conversion?

 

[pistonpump]

yeah that is a problem on these boards... everybody just seems to repeat what they hear from other members with out any clue to what they are talking about

piston your gyno prone if i remember correct? what did you run for your last cycle?

yes. it was EPI for 8 weeks. ...could be the reason my gyno has like shriveled up aand is hiding somewhere waiting to erupt (it seems).

Next cycle shouldnt be as safe as far as possible gyno problems go...we'll see.

 

[Movin_weight]

well thats good at least, yeah i did 4 weeks of epi and trenadrol and my shiz hurt the whole cycle, i just thought it would be ok with the SERM effects of epi and cabergoline... it's rebounded to slightly worse than it was b4 i started the cycle so i'm done with progestins from now on

i also didn't use an AI after my SERM so thats prob one of the probs

 

[thesinner]

Sinner curious where you got this info... it makes perfect sense as to why people develop gyno taking these products...

what do you think causes the increase in prolactin? i doubt it has anything to do with dopamine although that could be one factor? possibly the lack of aromatizable androgens causes the body to increase progesterone and prolactin to counter the effects of decreased estro conversion?

Have no idea what's causing the prolactin rebound. I know it's there because I've experienced it myself. The only cure has been B6 or dopaminergics.

 

[pistonpump]

Have no idea what's causing the prolactin rebound. I know it's there because I've experienced it myself. The only cure has been B6 or dopaminergics.

cabergoline or bromocriptine is the best for it but quite expensive not to mention its prescription.

 

[pistonpump]

well thats good at least, yeah i did 4 weeks of epi and trenadrol and my shiz hurt the whole cycle, i just thought it would be ok with the SERM effects of epi and cabergoline... it's rebounded to slightly worse than it was b4 i started the cycle so i'm done with progestins from now on

i also didn't use an AI after my SERM so thats prob one of the probs

on the occasions i used megatrn..it made things worse. I dont even know why i still have that stuff in my stash! anyway dont mean to take this topic off track.

How was your SERM dose last pct if you remember?

 

[thesinner]

cabergoline or bromocriptine is the best for it but quite expensive not to mention its prescription.

Theres a veterinary drug I've been researching which inhibits mammory development as well as a couple other desireable effects. But it doesn't come without terrible sides. Of course, this is even more expensive, and only available through a veterinary script.

 

[EasyEJL]

its kinda sad in its own ways (this is me thinking aloud) how many horrible potential sides and long term unknown effects there are for something that gives so little gain.

 

[thesinner]

its kinda sad in its own ways (this is me thinking aloud) how many horrible potential sides and long term unknown effects there are for something that gives so little gain.

These are risks we take. No one is forcing you to use anabolics. Unless I spike your cottage cheese with madol, the choice is 100% yours to make.

Getting in your car and taking the express lane to work in the morning has its risks too. You don't know who else is on the road, you don't know the conditions, and you don't know what's going to happen. Unfortunately, you want to go to work (you want the money that comes from going to work). There's some serious and even fatal risks involved in doing this seemingly simple task. All you can really do is wear a seatbelt. If you don't feel that's enough, DON'T DRIVE.

If you feel the ends do not justify the means, you are only fooling yourself in thinking you need to use anabolics.

 

[pistonpump]

Theres a veterinary drug I've been researching which inhibits mammory development as well as a couple other desireable effects. But it doesn't come without terrible sides. Of course, this is even more expensive, and only available through a veterinary script.

i dont see how it could be better with no human use studies? Its not even made for humans why would it be better than pharmaceutical prolactin inhibitors?

 

[thesinner]

There's a few people have used it. There may be human studies on it, I just haven't seen them. This would work through an entirely different mechanism than a caber or bromo.

 

[pistonpump]

There's a few people have used it. There may be human studies on it, I just haven't seen them. This would work through an entirely different mechanism than a caber or bromo.

i see.

back to topic....how would you PCT if you had access to all compounds and wanted to recover quickly with no real estro/gyno sides?

 

[thesinner]

Tamox + Clomid
IGF-LR3
Hyperdrol
Cabergoline

 

[pistonpump]

Tamox + Clomid
IGF-LR3
Hyperdrol
Cabergoline

in what fashion and durations?

 

[Movin_weight]

on the occasions i used megatrn..it made things worse. I dont even know why i still have that stuff in my stash! anyway dont mean to take this topic off track.

How was your SERM dose last post cycle therapy if you remember?

last PCT consisted of nolva: 3 days at 60mg, 5 days at 40mg, 5days at 30mg, 8 days at 15mg... i know it was kind of all over but i was trying to conserve the nolva i had

I also used eform starting at day 5 or 7 at 100mg and tapered it down to 25... I dropped the eform the same time as the nolva and had bloodwork done 4 days later and everthing came back in good range so i thought i was set... but within about a week i noticed the lumpy **** starting to form again

if i would have continued the e-form i think i would have solved the problem

 

[UNCfan1]

Going off topic real fast, how many cycles have u guys done? Alot of u seem to be gyno prone. Not inteneded to be an insult just wondering.

 

[Movin_weight]

i'v run 4 cycles in 2 years... I'v always carried some fat in my chest so i will assume i had a little pubertal gyno which is probly what makes me prone

 

[UNCfan1]

i'v run 4 cycles in 2 years... I'v always carried some fat in my chest so i will assume i had a little pubertal gyno which is probly what makes me prone

I didn't even think about taking that into consideration.

 

[LilPsychotic]

Very good questions, we need to keep this thread going.

I think LilPyschotic has a good start on this.

Thoughts

We use SERMs for two reasons:
1) Kickstarting our test production after a cycle
2) Keeping gyno away

Now, #1 is great for immediately after post cycle therapy. We want to keep our gains as well as get our bodies test working again.

The problem is, once our test is up and running, we're continuing to run a SERM. I beleive this is acting like a natural test booster, forcing our bodies to produce more test.

While this is all well and good because a SERM will block the ER from forming gyno, once we stop dosing the SERM there will be a higher level of test, and therefor a higher level of estrogen which could trigger a rebound.

It also doesn't help that SERMs increase ERs.

Possible Solutions
I have been saying this for a while, about Epistane and SERMs as well.

More is not better.

Have you ever noticed that studies on gynecomastia, breast cancer, etc, have not gone over 20mg?

I think the possible solution lies in how alot of us are ending our post cycle therapy's on 20mg of Tamoxifen, for example. Alot of studies into treatment of gyno with Tamoxifen have been at 10-20mg.

Could the possible solution be that we're going too high in our doses? And whats happening is its leaving our body in a state of high test: high estrogen ratio? Maybe doing 40mg the first few days of PCT, and then going down to 20mg or lower for the rest of the PCT.

Personally I have always beleived in doing a strong taper to end a PCT, going down to as low as 10mg of tamoxifen for the last week.

Yeah, I've read studies that claim 20mg of nolva raises test levels 150%. So 40mg, following this linear range, would be roughly 300%. Then when we stop taking the serm, even though we taper, we still have a sh*tload of test that can convert to estrogen that floods the receptors once the serm is discontinued. I'm experimenting with a very low dose of nolva to combat the gyno that popped up after my last cycle. Running 5 mg (Ramped down from 60mg) for a week to see if that diminishes any rebound effect.

 

[LilPsychotic]

I'm thinking both

I would think that 20mg nolva first week, 10mg second week, then none, with ramping up a moderate AI dose after that to make sure there isn't a big estrogen surge.

Look back at logs from pre 2005 ban. See what the guys who were running 1-t + 4ad did for post cycle therapy. basically that is as suppressive as you can get compound wise. And what was their PCT? maybe nothing, chrysin, or 6-oxo. No serms, and not a huge amount of gyno reports either...

I agree, I'm seeing more gyno now than then, with the advent of serm usage. I also agree that serm dosages are too high, and the last week or two should really taper a little more rigorously.

 

[thesinner]

This is not going to be linear....at all. 40mg will not elevate test much more than 20mg. A 150% increase from 30% of the nominal test value is not a lot of test. You forget that it is suppressed during PCT.

Tamoxifen also has a very long active life.

 

[UNCfan1]

in what fashion and durations?

Bump to this question.

 

[LilPsychotic]

This is not going to be linear....at all. 40mg will not elevate test much more than 20mg. A 150% increase from 30% of the nominal test value is not a lot of test. You forget that it is suppressed during post cycle therapy.

Tamoxifen also has a very long active life.

This was the study I was refering to on nonhormonally compromised men (not using steroids) using nolvadex to increase test.Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7. Google it if you want. I was presuming that there would be some linear correlation between plasma serm concentration vs. increased test production, but this study doesn't give any reference to that.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

What do you guys think about the addition of Post Cycle Support after 3 weeks of a prescription serm like torm? Like, ending the torm, then switching to Post Cycle Support to finish up pct? Just tossing stuff out here...

 

[B5150]

I'm thinking both

I would think that 20mg nolva first week, 10mg second week, then none, with ramping up a moderate AI dose after that to make sure there isn't a big estrogen surge.

Look back at logs from pre 2005 ban. See what the guys who were running 1-t + 4ad did for post cycle therapy. basically that is as suppressive as you can get compound wise. And what was their PCT? maybe nothing, chrysin, or 6-oxo. No serms, and not a huge amount of gyno reports either...

That is not true. In as far back as '02-'03 people were using SERM's (nolvadex and clomid) after ONE, ONE+, SuperONE, AndroDiol and NorDiol.

 

[B5150]

I agree, I'm seeing more gyno now than then, with the advent of serm usage. I also agree that serm dosages are too high, and the last week or two should really taper a little more rigorously.

It is not with the advent of SERM. We have been using SERM's for years. It is the advent of "the kitchen sink" approach that has been epidemic with the advent of OTC AI's.

Not to mention that guys who are just barely beyond puberty themselves are putting hormones into their bodies because they are rampant in the online and storefront retail markets.

How many of the kids already had dormant or pre-existing pubescent gyno? How many fat kids are taking these OTC hormones and their already pointy little boobies are growing?

Some of us have never taken anything other than nolvadex and have had zero gyno issues when used post many different types of anabolics, both OTC and otherwise.

 

[thesinner]

This was the study I was refering to on nonhormonally compromised men (not using steroids) using nolvadex to increase test.Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7. Google it if you want. I was presuming that there would be some linear correlation between plasma serm concentration vs. increased test production, but this study doesn't give any reference to that.

The SERM binds to the receptors in the pituitary gland, which triggers an increase in the production of androgens.

Since we are dealing with a finite number as well as a variable this becomes a function based on probability.

Think of it like an Easter Egg Hunt. I go and hide X easter eggs in a field. I then let the kids loose on the field to find those easter eggs. Only one easter egg per child. What do you suppose happens if there's more children than easter eggs?