Help me pick a SERM

[EasyEJL]

So come my 40th birthday i'm going to do a cycle of Epistane + Revolt (same as Max LMG / X-mass). I will be using thesinner / Crowler 's new Post Cycle Support (as well as added resveratrol to 2g active daily) plus X-factor to continue gains, what serm should I take? I like the idea of Ralox or Torem for lower toxicity. Money doesn't really matter, this cycle is my birthday present to myself so $100 for a SERM is ok (although I can find most any for under $60), the rest of the cycle with support supps is in the few hundred range anyhow.

I'm only trying to decide now cause i'd like to take the time to be sure to find a reasonable source, plus I like looking at the shelf that has the accumulation of what i've already bought Sorta like waiting for christmas.

 

[thesinner]

If you wanna stack with a SERM, I always recommend tamoxifen for the SERM. It's cheap, it works, and I'm 110% sure of it.

 

[Travis]

I would definitely use Torem. I haven't actually had the opportunity to use it yet (trying to get through all my nolva first), but it is a better SERM imho. Plus it has great real world feedback.

 

[CryingEmo]

Torem for 4 weeks, Nolva for the first 1 or 2 stacked with torem. Post Cycle Support + Massfx or Anabolic drive + parabol + whatever else float your body. Maybe some leanx?

 

[jomi822]

ive used ralox, chlomid, nolva, and toremifene

Toremifene blows the rest of them out of the water in terms of recovery. I would choose it over any other serm up there for post cycle therapy.

Get ready to use your penis as a firehose though, warn your female you might be throwin' out 5 times the volume. No, im not kidding (or exaggerating).

 

[neoborn]

From what I have read ( not experienced ) Toremifene is the bees knees and less toxic etc than Nolva.

Much love,

Neoborn

 

[thesinner]

ive used ralox, chlomid, nolva, and toremifene

Toremifene blows the rest of them out of the water in terms of recovery. I would choose it over any other serm up there for post cycle therapy.

Get ready to use your penis as a firehose though, warn your female you might be throwin' out 5 times the volume. No, im not kidding (or exaggerating).

That's actually why I kind of shy away from 2nd generation SERMs. I ran ralox as the first SERM I had ever used, and....it blew up the balloons a little too much for my liking. I had the stamina of a 12 year old and shot like a 6 guage (anti-aircraft) shotgun.

 

[lennoxchi]

That's actually why I kind of shy away from 2nd generation SERMs. I ran ralox as the first SERM I had ever used, and....it blew up the balloons a little too much for my liking. I had the stamina of a 12 year old and shot like a 6 guage (anti-aircraft) shotgun.

i've never been so excited to run my next cycle just to get to the Torm i have.....:woohoo:

 

[EasyEJL]

That's actually why I kind of shy away from 2nd generation SERMs. I ran ralox as the first SERM I had ever used, and....it blew up the balloons a little too much for my liking. I had the stamina of a 12 year old and shot like a 6 guage (anti-aircraft) shotgun.

Hmm well my wife is already pregnant, so I don't really need all that although it could be interesting

 

[thesinner]

Hmm well my wife is already pregnant, so I don't really need all that although it could be interesting

Is your anniversary coming up anytime near the end of your cycle? If so, I think an umbrella might make for a thoughtful give: she'll need one for the 'money shot'.

Personally, I kind of like not having my frat boy libido for a week or so every once and a while. Let's me focus more attention on other things.

 

[soultrain]

I have not yet tried Toremifene. Has anyone noticed any bad side effects from it? I cannot use Clomid. Heavy doses of it feel like an acid trip to me. Tracers and artifacts all over the place. Although I've run Nolvadex and had no problems.

 

[GotTest]

So come my 40th birthday i'm going to do a cycle of Epistane + Revolt (same as Max LMG / X-mass).

Happy Bday man! I just turned 41 myself.
I'm in my 4th week of Epi cycle 40mg/day(going for 6 weeks), and I'll be using the Ralox @ 120mg/day first month of PCT and continue for another month @60mg/day(recommended by some Docs) to help me continue to eliminate gyno.

 

[EasyEJL]

I was kind of liking the ralox idea as well for the bone hardening. With arthritis, i know I will eventually need knee replacements (probably by 50) and so a little extra bone density never hurts.

 

[neoborn]

No you will not need knee replacements. You will take your EFA's etc your cissus daily, workout and strengthen your knee's throug various compound exercises and live a long and happy healthy life!

Which one do you want to believe? Your version or mine? You choose....

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[EasyEJL]

No you will not need knee replacements. You will take your EFA's etc your cissus daily, workout and strengthen your knee's throug various compound exercises and live a long and happy healthy life!

Which one do you want to believe? Your version or mine? You choose....

Much Love,

Neoborn

Which one has more beer :cheers: and hamburgers :burg: in it? I need that info to decide

My knees are doing pretty well really, I can live through 10 sets of 10 of squats with 100lbs, so not all bad.

 

[neoborn]

Which one has more beer :cheers: and hamburgers :burg: in it? I need that info to decide

My knees are doing pretty well really, I can live through 10 sets of 10 of squats with 100lbs, so not all bad.

I choose hamburgers n Ice cream mmmmm.

You know I love joo long time bro, time to let go of that negative sick and diseased thought pattern though, it's the up and up for you!

Much Love,

Neoborn

 

[Eric Potratz]

Here is a bit from my PCT article -

"As the medical community became more aware of the side-effects associated with clomiphene and tamoxifen treatment, newer and safer SERMs, such as toremifene and raloxifene hit the developmental fast track. Toremifene appears to be less liver toxic, but it is an analog of tamoxifen, so it also carries many of the related genotoxic effects.48,49 Raloxifene appears to be even safer by being the least liver toxic, and not having any potential issue with the uterus or prostate.50-52 Unfortunately, raloxifene has been associated with a higher incidence of thromboembolism52 (arterial blockage), and also has very low oral absorption, making it an expensive alternative at a typical 120mg/day dose.53 Still, raloxifene could presumably be equally effective as clomid or nolvadex at restoring HPTA function, while imparting less side effects.53 Newer SERMs are already being evaluated such as bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene, in hopes of reducing risk even further"

-Pp

 

[EasyEJL]

Here is a bit from my post cycle therapy article -

"As the medical community became more aware of the side-effects associated with clomiphene and tamoxifen treatment, newer and safer SERMs, such as toremifene and raloxifene hit the developmental fast track. Toremifene appears to be less liver toxic, but it is an analog of tamoxifen, so it also carries many of the related genotoxic effects.48,49 Raloxifene appears to be even safer by being the least liver toxic, and not having any potential issue with the uterus or prostate.50-52 Unfortunately, raloxifene has been associated with a higher incidence of thromboembolism52 (arterial blockage), and also has very low oral absorption, making it an expensive alternative at a typical 120mg/day dose.53 Still, raloxifene could presumably be equally effective as clomid or nolvadex at restoring HPTA function, while imparting less side effects.53 Newer SERMs are already being evaluated such as bazedoxifene, arzoxifene, and lasofoxifene, in hopes of reducing risk even further"

-Pp

Here was a perfect opportunity to pimp your own product, the Dermacrine Sustain, and you missed it I was pondering your product as a piece of this anyhow, to potentially avoid some of the issue of taking 2+ g of resveratrol from 50% extract orally.



Has anyone experimented with lower doses of mixed SERMS?

What I mean is instead of 40 nolva or 120 torem doing a 20/60 split? or something along those lines? I know ralox takes longer to take effect so it would need to be started earlier.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Here was a perfect opportunity to pimp your own product, the Dermacrine Sustain, and you missed it I was pondering your product as a piece of this anyhow, to potentially avoid some of the issue of taking 2+ g of resveratrol from 50% extract orally.



Has anyone experimented with lower doses of mixed SERMS?

What I mean is instead of 40 nolva or 120 torem doing a 20/60 split? or something along those lines? I know ralox takes longer to take effect so it would need to be started earlier.

I can tell you this much…

Maximum testosterone stimulation happens at about 10mg/day for nolva and 25mg/day for clomid so going above this will just enhance the side effects.

If you worried about using our Derma Sustain as a solo PCT item you could always stack it with a low dose of nolva or clomid. Guys that have don’t this have said it’s the best recovery they’ve ever had. (some have even said this when using sustain alone, which is what I would do)

-Pp

 

[thesinner]

I can tell you this much…

Maximum testosterone stimulation happens at about 10mg/day for nolva and 25mg/day for clomid so going above this will just enhance the side effects.

If you worried about using our Derma Sustain as a solo PCT item you could always stack it with a low dose of nolva or clomid. Guys that have don’t this have said it’s the best recovery they’ve ever had. (some have even said this when using sustain alone, which is what I would do)

-Pp

Do you have any further readings on that (bolded in quote). I'm very interested in learning more.

 

[EasyEJL]

I can tell you this much…

Maximum testosterone stimulation happens at about 10mg/day for nolva and 25mg/day for clomid so going above this will just enhance the side effects.

If you worried about using our Derma Sustain as a solo PCT item you could always stack it with a low dose of nolva or clomid. Guys that have don’t this have said it’s the best recovery they’ve ever had. (some have even said this when using sustain alone, which is what I would do)

-Pp

What kind of dose of resveratrol is in either regular dermacrine or sustain on a daily basis? I'm planning on at least 1g/day thru cycle and was going to shoot for 2g/day during. I could use the product during the cycle as well, as from what I can tell high resveratrol should at the very least lower the level of suppression.

 

[Gutterpump]

Has anyone experimented with lower doses of mixed SERMS?

What I mean is instead of 40 nolva or 120 torem doing a 20/60 split? or something along those lines? I know ralox takes longer to take effect so it would need to be started earlier.

I'm very much interested in this too.
Doing a Torem/Tamox split interests me for a lot of reasons.

btw, dermacrine sustain looks like an interesting product. Any logs/bloodwork done from people using this in PCT w/SERM and/or standalone?

 

[Eric Potratz]

What kind of dose of resveratrol is in either regular dermacrine or sustain on a daily basis? I'm planning on at least 1g/day thru cycle and was going to shoot for 2g/day during. I could use the product during the cycle as well, as from what I can tell high resveratrol should at the very least lower the level of suppression.

Each dose of Derma Sustain has 134mg of 99% pure resveratrol (In a six pump dose lasting 25 days) Its naturally timed-released too because it’s a topical. It may help prevent some suppression on cycle, but I wouldn’t say it’s a full substitute for on cycle hCG.

-Pp

 

[Eric Potratz]

Do you have any further readings on that (bolded in quote). I'm very interested in learning more.

That comment is based on the compiled knowledge of reading over 200+ tamoxifen and clomiphene studies. Some studies used less, some more… but those are the average #’s which produced the maximal effect on T in most of the fertility studies in the 70’s.

Somewhere along the line BB’s got the impression that “more is better” with clomid and nolvadex and since its so cheap, why not?

Gutterpump,

There are plenty of good logs on various forums from guys have successfully used Sustain for PCT, but no real concrete blood hormone analysis yet on how much Sustain will actually increase Teststerone. As you can image, there are a lot of factors in PCT, so even with bloodwork its hard to judge what really is having an effect when hormone levels are roller coasting and steroids are clearing.

We do know that FSH and LH are increased with Derma Sustain though, and further blood tests are underway…

-Pp

 

[thesinner]

That comment is based on the compiled knowledge of reading over 200+ tamoxifen and clomiphene studies. Some studies used less, some more… but those are the average #’s which produced the maximal effect on T in most of the fertility studies in the 70’s.

Somewhere along the line BB’s got the impression that “more is better” with clomid and nolvadex and since its so cheap, why not?

-Pp

That's cool. I can understand dosages being asymptotic or parabolic with their effects. It actually makes more sense than the linear train of thought. I was just curious because I've never seen it elsewhere, but then again there's a lot of 'broscience' out there.

I think the idea of more Tamox might have come from "gynecomaranoia" (being paranoid of getting gyno). Thanks for this tidbit of information. It is definitely interesting.

 

[GotTest]

That's actually why I kind of shy away from 2nd generation SERMs. I ran ralox as the first SERM I had ever used, and....it blew up the balloons a little too much for my liking. I had the stamina of a 12 year old and shot like a 6 guage (anti-aircraft) shotgun.

sinner,
what did you dose your Ralox at? How long did it take to notice the "boys" coming back?

 

[EasyEJL]

Each dose of Derma Sustain has 134mg of 99% pure resveratrol (In a six pump dose lasting 25 days) Its naturally timed-released too because it’s a topical. It may help prevent some suppression on cycle, but I wouldn’t say it’s a full substitute for on cycle hCG.

-Pp

Interesting, and now i'm really stretching the topic of the thread, but do you know the bioavailability difference between oral + transdermal?

 

[thesinner]

sinner,
what did you dose your Ralox at? How long did it take to notice the "boys" coming back?

"kick started" with 240mg for the first couple days, then dropped to 120mg. I think I started on a Thursday, and by Sunday it was like milking a cow. I don't recommend it. Felt way too unnatural.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Interesting, and now i'm really stretching the topic of the thread, but do you know the bioavailability difference between oral + transdermal?

Bioavailability is complicated with resvertrol since its rapidly conjugated and metabolized upon entrance in the blood so its hard to calculate how much un-metabolized resveratrol is getting absorbed and for how long its actually resveratrol (its likely the metabolites are active too)

We do know that it’s a light weight polyphenol so it definitely passes the skin and gets into the blood very efficiently (60-70%) The fact that its topical is going to ensure that you have even blood levels throughout a 24 hr period so that is a benefit over oral.

-Pp

 

[Travis]

That comment is based on the compiled knowledge of reading over 200+ tamoxifen and clomiphene studies. Some studies used less, some more… but those are the average #’s which produced the maximal effect on T in most of the fertility studies in the 70’s.

Somewhere along the line BB’s got the impression that “more is better” with clomid and nolvadex and since its so cheap, why not?

Gutterpump,

There are plenty of good logs on various forums from guys have successfully used Sustain for post cycle therapy, but no real concrete blood hormone analysis yet on how much Sustain will actually increase Teststerone. As you can image, there are a lot of factors in PCT, so even with bloodwork its hard to judge what really is having an effect when hormone levels are roller coasting and steroids are clearing.

We do know that FSH and LH are increased with Derma Sustain though, and further blood tests are underway…

-Pp

FWIW, I'll be starting a PCT log using Sustain and a low dose Nolva in about 3-5 days. I will be logging it here at AM. Unfortunately I cannot fund both bloodwork before/after but I will for sure be getting it after PCT to ensure everything is in good working order.

Also, I do know that plymouth city has a post in the anti-aging forum in which I believe he says he used Sustain solo (not in PCT) and had before/after bloodwork that was relatively impressive.

 

[Irish Cannon]

I don't know how you are with gyno, but out of every SERM I've used, Nolva is the only one that took care of the gyno. So, regardless of what I used for my recovery, I'll always have nolva on hand. Toremifene was great for recovery. It made my balls hurt the first few days though. - I think that's a good thing, though.