Still Shutdown...Help!

[Gettingback]

It has been 2 months post havoc PCT and I am still supressed (Bloodwork showed T at the minimum level + Low Free).

I used Torm for the PCT, but I was thinking that I have two options:

1.) Run another PH cycle, shut myself down and go with a Nolva/Clomid PCT

or

2.) Just run Novla + Clomid right now.

What would you do?

 

[ReaperX]

It has been 2 months post havoc post cycle therapy and I am still supressed (Bloodwork showed T at the minimum level + Low Free).

I used Torm for the post cycle therapy, but I was thinking that I have two options:

1.) Run another PH cycle, shut myself down and go with a Nolva/Clomid PCT

or

2.) Just run Novla + Clomid right now.

What would you do?

Go see an Endo specialist. This is the shlt that scares me with PH/PS. I read somewhere else this guy who ran multiple bottles of 1-AD back in the day and he never recovered from it. He said he has been taking TRT for the past 2 years.

You need some HCG which will help stimulate the natural production of your own test.

Personally I don't know why people risk taking Torem/Ralox,etc. Yeah Nolva is toxic and there are issues with Clomid, but they are the ones that are tried and true.

 

[bearmeat]

Go see an Endo specialist. This is the shlt that scares me with PH/PS. I read somewhere else this guy who ran multiple bottles of 1-AD back in the day and he never recovered from it. He said he has been taking TRT for the past 2 years.

You need some HCG which will help stimulate the natural production of your own test.

Personally I don't know why people risk taking Torem/Ralox,etc. Yeah Nolva is toxic and there are issues with Clomid, but they are the ones that are tried and true.

Word. Clomid also has clinical studies showing it restores natural HPTA function after heavy cycles and complete HPTA shutdown.


Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.Tan RS, Vasudevan D.
Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

PMID: 12524089 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Jstrong20]

What was the pre cycle numbers? Because if you didn't have a results pre cycle you may have always been low normal. Also I wouldn't freak out at only 2 months. Plus other things like diet can play a roll in low test. I've always heard not eating enough healthy fats, stress, drinking, and not getting enough sleep can mess up t levels. The only other one I can think of is maybe your deficent in zinc.

 

[yeahright]

I woul take your second option:

2.) Just run Novla + Clomid right now.

...and maybe take a low dose AI as well.

 

[gotripped]

Nolva Clomid and Arimidex :clap2: A-dex is your AI.
This will prevent estro rebound and since you've been off your cycle for awhile you probably aren't too worried about "maintaining gains" so an AI would be okay for this situation. I would run all three together. It will make your test shoot through the roof. hahhaha... I made a funny. I said shoot through the roof.

 

[Gettingback]

Nolva Clomid and Arimidex :clap2: A-dex is your AI.
This will prevent estro rebound and since you've been off your cycle for awhile you probably aren't too worried about "maintaining gains" so an AI would be okay for this situation. I would run all three together. It will make your test shoot through the roof. hahhaha... I made a funny. I said shoot through the roof.

Sounds good. What would dosing look like?

I don't quite know how to incorporate the A-Dex.

Here are my thoughts:

Weeks 1-2: Nolva at 40mg, Clomid at 100mg, Adex - ?

Weeks 3-4: Nolva at 20mg, Clomid at 50mg, Adex - ?

 

[Gettingback]

Also - Why the need for adex/low dosed AI?

My Estradiol is low as it is and I have read that driving your Estrogen levels into the ground during PCT (or in this case a restart), would lead to ultra-sensetive estrogen receptors, which could lead to gyno.

 

[Hyde12]

Also - Why the need for adex/low dosed AI?

My Estradiol is low as it is and I have read that driving your Estrogen levels into the ground during post cycle therapy (or in this case a restart), would lead to ultra-sensetive estrogen receptors, which could lead to gyno.

If you see an Endo it might be hit or miss. Most of them are completely oblivious to HPTA restart. Try to find a doctor that specialized in HRT (not saying you need it but they have more understanding of male hormones) If Clomid doesn't work then you could have Primary Hypogonadism. If your Testosterone rises during Clomid, but falls after you stop taking it then you are looking at Secondary Hypogonadism. Sometimes it takes a while for test levels to come back afterwards. You also neet to get Prolactin, LH, FSH, Cortisol tests done. I do not recommend HCG during PCT because it can desensitize Leydig cells and it will do nothing to restore your HPTA is the problem lies in Primary Hypogonadism.

 

[Gettingback]

If you see an Endo it might be hit or miss. Most of them are completely oblivious to HPTA restart. Try to find a doctor that specialized in HRT (not saying you need it but they have more understanding of male hormones) If Clomid doesn't work then you could have Primary Hypogonadism. If your Testosterone rises during Clomid, but falls after you stop taking it then you are looking at Secondary Hypogonadism. Sometimes it takes a while for test levels to come back afterwards. You also neet to get Prolactin, LH, FSH, Cortisol tests done. I do not recommend HCG during post cycle therapy because it can desensitize Leydig cells and it will do nothing to restore your HPTA is the problem lies in Primary Hypogonadism.

Well, I have Nolva and Clomid on hand.

Should I just run them at the dosages I outlined above?

 

[Gettingback]

Well, I have Nolva and Clomid on hand.

Should I just run them at the dosages I outlined above?

Bump on running:

1-14: 40 nolva, 100 Clomid
15-30: 20 Nolva, 50 Clomid

Will the Ai make a difference?

 

[Hyde12]

Clomid is too high cut it in half.

 

[Gettingback]

Clomid is too high cut it in half.

Really? That is what I have seen everywhere.

 

[yeahright]

Also - Why the need for adex/low dosed AI?

My Estradiol is low as it is and I have read that driving your Estrogen levels into the ground during post cycle therapy (or in this case a restart), would lead to ultra-sensetive estrogen receptors, which could lead to gyno.

How do you know your estrogen is low?

 

[Gettingback]

How do you know your estrogen is low?

Well Estradiol was low.

 

[yeahright]

Well Estradiol was low.

Post your bloodwork.

 

[gotripped]

Clomid is too high cut it in half.

That is a low dose for clomid. I run it @ 200mg for the first 2 weeks and then 150 then 100 then 50mg.
60mg of nolva the first week 40 40 then 20 20
Run a low dose of A-dex nothing huge. Just cutting out the estrogen. Serms will only mask estrogen. Adex will remove it from your system,.

 

[pistonpump]

That is a low dose for clomid. I run it @ 200mg for the first 2 weeks and then 150 then 100 then 50mg.
60mg of nolva the first week 40 40 then 20 20
Run a low dose of A-dex nothing huge. Just cutting out the estrogen. Serms will only mask estrogen. Adex will remove it from your system,.

his estro is already low. he will crush it with the adex. if you are going to make use of adex run it during the last weeks of the clomind and nolva and continue for a few weeks after you finish the SERMs, imo.

 

[Gettingback]

his estro is already low. he will crush it with the adex. if you are going to make use of adex run it during the last weeks of the clomind and nolva and continue for a few weeks after you finish the SERMs, imo.

This is the response I was expecting. Wouldn't driving estrogen into the ground be just about the worst thing I could do?

Is adding A-Dex in at the end even necessary? Would an AI be a better choice?

 

[Gettingback]

That is a low dose for clomid. I run it @ 200mg for the first 2 weeks and then 150 then 100 then 50mg.
60mg of nolva the first week 40 40 then 20 20
Run a low dose of A-dex nothing huge. Just cutting out the estrogen. Serms will only mask estrogen. Adex will remove it from your system,.

Are you saying to run it for 5 weeks then? Also, those dosages look REALLY high.

Also, what do you think about adding a low-dose AI (like 6-oxo) in at the end.

 

[pistonpump]

This is the response I was expecting. Wouldn't driving estrogen into the ground be just about the worst thing I could do?

Is adding A-Dex in at the end even necessary? Would an AI be a better choice?

Adex is arimidex aka anastrazole (sp?) and it is an AI. Now the reasoning is because it may be possible for you to get nasty estrogen rebound from using the SERMs(clomid/nolva)....now if you taper down the dosages of the SERMs you should be fine and not get estro rebound. You could do it that way.

 

[Gettingback]

Adex is arimidex aka anastrazole (sp?) and it is an AI. Now the reasoning is because it may be possible for you to get nasty estrogen rebound from using the SERMs(clomid/nolva)....now if you taper down the dosages of the SERMs you should be fine and not get estro rebound. You could do it that way.

Sounds good. Would this be good then:

Days 1-14
Clomid 100mg/ED
Nolva 40mg/ED

Days 15-28
Clomid 50mg/ED
Nolva 20mg/ED

Days 29-42
Nolva 10mg/ED

I have 6-oxo on hand. When would I implement that?

 

[pistonpump]

that looks good.

 

[jomi822]

It has been 2 months post havoc post cycle therapy and I am still supressed (Bloodwork showed T at the minimum level + Low Free).

I used Torm for the PCT, but I was thinking that I have two options:

1.) Run another PH cycle, shut myself down and go with a Nolva/Clomid PCT

or

2.) Just run Novla + Clomid right now.

What would you do?

hm ANOTHER thread with a Havoc problem. i really need to find the thread where i typed "mark my words" about havoc's supposed "mildness". anyway

dont go see an endo...what is he going to do? in all seriousness? no experience with steroid use, no experience with PCT. hes going to say "just stop all supplements and eat healthy and youll return to normal...(i hope/dont want to deal with it)".

id go back on cycle...USING A PROVEN NON PROGESTIN COMPOUND (aka NOT havoc), and then run a regular torem and/or chlomd pct.

 

[Gettingback]

hm ANOTHER thread with a Havoc problem. i really need to find the thread where i typed "mark my words" about havoc's supposed "mildness". anyway

dont go see an endo...what is he going to do? in all seriousness? no experience with steroid use, no experience with post cycle therapy. hes going to say "just stop all supplements and eat healthy and youll return to normal...(i hope/dont want to deal with it)".

id go back on cycle...USING A PROVEN NON PROGESTIN COMPOUND (aka NOT havoc), and then run a regular torem and/or chlomd post cycle therapy.

Would that be more beneficial than just getting right onto Clomid + Nolva now?

 

[Hyde12]

That is a low dose for clomid. I run it @ 200mg for the first 2 weeks and then 150 then 100 then 50mg.
60mg of nolva the first week 40 40 then 20 20
Run a low dose of A-dex nothing huge. Just cutting out the estrogen. Serms will only mask estrogen. Adex will remove it from your system,.

I like to keep the dose of clomid low because you still get all the positive effects and you keep the sides at bay.

 

[Gettingback]

that looks good.

Looks like I will go with that. If I ramp down, I shouldn't need the AI, correct?

 

[Hyde12]

hm ANOTHER thread with a Havoc problem. i really need to find the thread where i typed "mark my words" about havoc's supposed "mildness". anyway

dont go see an endo...what is he going to do? in all seriousness? no experience with steroid use, no experience with post cycle therapy. hes going to say "just stop all supplements and eat healthy and youll return to normal...(i hope/dont want to deal with it)".

id go back on cycle...USING A PROVEN NON PROGESTIN COMPOUND (aka NOT havoc), and then run a regular torem and/or chlomd post cycle therapy.

Interesting about Havoc being a progestin. Havoc felt like a progestin when I used it.

 

[pistonpump]

Interesting about Havoc being a progestin. Havoc felt like a progestin when I used it.

just curious but what does a progestin feel like or indications of?

sorry for the quick jack.

 

[jomi822]

just curious but what does a progestin feel like or indications of?

sorry for the quick jack.

weird water retention, more shutdown, puffy nipples despite anti E use.

 

[Gettingback]

weird water retention, more shutdown, puffy nipples despite anti E use.

I had VERY weird water retention. Funny you mentioned that.

 

[dhuge67]

What does being shutdown mean, exactly? What are the signs of it?

Are you simply unable to ejaculate?

 

[Hyde12]

What does being shutdown mean, exactly? What are the signs of it?

Are you simply unable to ejaculate?

Being shutdown means your body stops producing or is not producing optimal amounts of Testosterone.
The signs are basically all or some of the symptoms of low Test: Libido loss, fat gain, muscle loss, shrunken nuts, depression, sore joints and brain fog.