Problems after Havoc....

[ltyson]

Need some suggestions and opinions. I'll give you a little background first. Decided to run Havoc, 4 week cycle:

Days 1-2: 10mg
Days 3-7: 20mg
Week 2: 30mg
Week 3: 40mg
Week 4: 40mg

With Havoc, I ran cycle support, poseidon, anabolic pump, super cissus, protein powder, and efa's during weeks 1-4.

For post cycle (weeks 5-8), I continued all the supplements above plus added Retain2, Powerfull, Leviathan, and Toremifene Citrate at 120,90,60,30.

As far as results, I felt great during weeks 1-2 of the cycle, but also did not really feel any great improvement or changes.

Week 3 started to see some strength increase (not crazy increases like some report, but increased some) but still not really any major body weight increase. Also started to feel shutdown towards the end of the week.

By week 4, I was only up 4 pounds from the start, and strength was still going up but still not any big increases. I was feeling more and more shutdown and by the start of week 4 I was getting some major back pain.

Week 5 I stated post cycle therapy hoping things would bounce back as now I was feeling like general crap. Looked very flat, joints were hurting, did not feel very strong, libido was down, and the back pain was really bad.

4 weeks now of PCT. All done with Toremifene Citrate but continuing to stay on the other supps, and while I felt myself come back some I still do not feel completely back yet.

Joints still hurt, libido is low, strength is down, body weight is only 3lbs up from the very start many weeks ago and the darn back pains are still really bad in the mornings primarily, but in general I have been forced to watch every exercise and cannot currently do squats, deadlifts, or other type motions without my back pumping and causing pain.

So what do I do? In terms of my back I have never in my life had any issues with it, so I went to a really good chiropractor that is used to dealing with weightlifters to make sure nothing major was wrong and he agrees all is fine structurally so I feel good about that. Thinking of adding some Taurine into my regimen to see if that helps. Diet is in good order as it had been from the very start.

So any opinions on how to get myself completely back? After today I am thinking of doing away with everything but protein powder and efa's just to give my body a break and see what happens, but at the same time I know there is a school of thought that says if you don't fully recover sometimes you should hop right back on another cycle followed by another round of PCT.

Just looking for other opinions and other suggestions on what to do.

ltyson

 

[yeahright]

Need some suggestions and opinions. I'll give you a little background first. Decided to run Havoc, 4 week cycle:

Days 1-2: 10mg
Days 3-7: 20mg
Week 2: 30mg
Week 3: 40mg
Week 4: 40mg

With Havoc, I ran cycle support, poseidon, anabolic pump, super cissus, protein powder, and efa's during weeks 1-4.

For post cycle (weeks 5-8), I continued all the supplements above plus added Retain2, Powerfull, Leviathan, and Toremifene Citrate at 120,90,60,30.

As far as results, I felt great during weeks 1-2 of the cycle, but also did not really feel any great improvement or changes.

Week 3 started to see some strength increase (not crazy increases like some report, but increased some) but still not really any major body weight increase. Also started to feel shutdown towards the end of the week.

By week 4, I was only up 4 pounds from the start, and strength was still going up but still not any big increases. I was feeling more and more shutdown and by the start of week 4 I was getting some major back pain.

Week 5 I stated post cycle therapy hoping things would bounce back as now I was feeling like general crap. Looked very flat, joints were hurting, did not feel very strong, libido was down, and the back pain was really bad.

4 weeks now of post cycle therapy. All done with Toremifene Citrate but continuing to stay on the other supps, and while I felt myself come back some I still do not feel completely back yet.

Joints still hurt, libido is low, strength is down, body weight is only 3lbs up from the very start many weeks ago and the darn back pains are still really bad in the mornings primarily, but in general I have been forced to watch every exercise and cannot currently do squats, deadlifts, or other type motions without my back pumping and causing pain.

So what do I do? In terms of my back I have never in my life had any issues with it, so I went to a really good chiropractor that is used to dealing with weightlifters to make sure nothing major was wrong and he agrees all is fine structurally so I feel good about that. Thinking of adding some Taurine into my regimen to see if that helps. Diet is in good order as it had been from the very start.

So any opinions on how to get myself completely back? After today I am thinking of doing away with everything but protein powder and efa's just to give my body a break and see what happens, but at the same time I know there is a school of thought that says if you don't fully recover sometimes you should hop right back on another cycle followed by another round of PCT.

Just looking for other opinions and other suggestions on what to do.

ltyson

I think your plan makes sense. Get off the stuff, supplement taurine, drink plenty of water, get lots of sleep and see how you feel in a week.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Think you zapped the hell out of your est?

 

[yeahright]

Think you zapped the hell out of your est?

Sounds like it doesn't it?...with the joint issues, suppressed libido and general lethargy.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Yeah, his approach is something akin to coming off superdrol or something. I'm not quite sure you need to go that route when on Havoc/epi. It's almost like crushing your estrogen for 9 weeks. My opinion anyways on the symtoms.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Crushing/zapping. man i on in the description department tonight

 

[AnonyMoose]

Crushing/zapping. man i on in the description department tonight

are both of you suggesting you can over AI yourself after an epi/havoc cycle. i am at week four of PCT and and still not back. i am off torm and have been staying on the ai with a test booster. is it possible i should take the ai out (6 oxo, hyperdrol) using mass fx for the test booster.

note for the originator of this thread - i was on epi and duiring time it was backordered out of stock. so i had to switch to havoc a few days to hold me until i could get more epi. as soon as i went on the havoc i had helacious lower back pumps, lethargy, and bloat. i am not convinced on havoc right now - but then again - some may say it was the mixing that created this wrath. as soon as i switched back to the epi - that went way. when the entire cycle was done however - i was def. shut down.

 

[Jayhawkk]

You can always over AI anything. You are trying to normalize hormones and bring lipids back to safe ranges...Bringing your estrogen to zero isn't normalizing hormones

 

[ltyson]

Yeah, his approach is something akin to coming off superdrol or something. I'm not quite sure you need to go that route when on Havoc/epi. It's almost like crushing your estrogen for 9 weeks. My opinion anyways on the symtoms.

Everyone- thank you for the replies. So do I drop everything supplement wise and let my body try to recover on it's own?

After seeing Yeahright's initial reply in agreement yesterday, I did not take anything today (other then some protein powder) and can stay that course and report back what happens, or should I drop everything and start something different to try and bring my estrogen back in line?

Thanks for all the replies.

Ltyson

 

[AnonyMoose]

Everyone- thank you for the replies. So do I drop everything supplement wise and let my body try to recover on it's own?

After seeing Yeahright's initial reply in agreement yesterday, I did not take anything today (other then some protein powder) and can stay that course and report back what happens, or should I drop everything and start something different to try and bring my estrogen back in line?

Thanks for all the replies.

Ltyson

keep us updated - i am interested in how it goes as your sit is a little similiar to mine.

 

[ltyson]

keep us updated - i am interested in how it goes as your sit is a little similiar to mine.

I will most certainly let you know how things go. I will lay off everything short of protein powder and efa's. If someone has a better idea I am open to suggestions as dropping everything also seems to maybe be a little to far in the opposite direction, but I am open to try anything.

The positive side is that I do plan to try the epi version at some point way down the road so this will allow me to have something to compare it to.

I would also like to see more input on your question about over AI'ing yourself with some of these milder compounds.

Jayhawkk, when you mentioned my "approach is something akin to coming off superdrol or something" I assume I had some overkill going on in PCT but what would you have dropped from my line-up of changed in this case?

Thanks,
Ltyson

 

[Jayhawkk]

I would of dropped the tam and just left everything else in place. You don't want to just stop everything because you're trying to avoid rebound as well. this is why you have tapering.

 

[yeahright]

I would of dropped the tam and just left everything else in place. You don't want to just stop everything because you're trying to avoid rebound as well. this is why you have tapering.

It's a judgment call but suppressing cortisol for long periods of time isn't that good an idea (which is why I think dropping it after 4 weeks makes sense). Ditto on the Leviathon----just staying on stims for a long period of time can make a person feel rundown.

He's off the tamox. I'd suggest dropping the stim and cortisol suppressant. I'd also drop the powerful as well because it has anabolic effects in of itself.

Nourish his body and rest for a week. If at the end of a week he still feels suppressed, then it might be time to re-evaluate. My speculation (and it's just that) is that he might be conflating feeling "suppressed" with the general "rode hard and put away wet" feeling that one can have after a cycle and then an intensive post cycle therapy. That's a lot of chemical manipulation of a lot of body functions for 2 months. My hope is that after a week or so of being clean and taking care of himself (sleep, water, food) he'll be feeling much better.

 

[Jayhawkk]

Grat advice, YR.

 

[ltyson]

Just as an update:

Wednesday- I stopped everything.

Thursday- after more thought and discussion based on the posts here, I thought maybe dropping everything at once was a bit drastic so I took 1 cap of powerfull this morning upon waking and then 1 cap of retain2 after my training. I was taking 5 powerfull per day and 3 retain2 so I thought this was a good jump down. In the big picture, I would probably be just as good stopping altogether instead of messing around with the 1 cap of each idea, but it makes me feel like I am tapering down and mentally makes me feel better.

I can say though, now at the end of day 2, my back pumps are better then they have been in many weeks. Still there mind you but today they are noticeably better. May just be a lucky day and they may come back tomorrow as strong as ever but today was good. Other then that all other feelings or symptoms are the same, which I would expect.

Friday- may try the 1 cap idea of powerfull in the morning. No training for me though on Fridays so I will probably not use any retain2.

More to come..........

ltyson

 

[yeahright]

Keep us updated.

 

[AnonyMoose]

Everyone- thank you for the replies. So do I drop everything supplement wise and let my body try to recover on it's own?

After seeing Yeahright's initial reply in agreement yesterday, I did not take anything today (other then some protein powder) and can stay that course and report back what happens, or should I drop everything and start something different to try and bring my estrogen back in line?

Thanks for all the replies.

Ltyson

i am in my forth week, pct, post epi cycle. i am just coming back and it has been happening for me as i have been tapering on the ai. i've stopped the serm after the third week. so hang in there - that was good advice given to me.

moose

 

[ltyson]

A couple more days have passed so here is another update:

Friday - I ran 1 cap of powerfull, no retain.

Saturday - 1 cap of powerfull.

Sunday - none

Monday - none

So I have dropped all misc supps now. Using only protein powder and EFA's.

Biggest thing I have noticed is that my back has improved greatly. Back pumps are almost entirely gone although I am not pushing things to fast so i have not done heavy squats, deadlifts, etc as I don't want to aggravate it at this point, but it feels better then it has in several weeks.

Libido is up just slightly and joints are still a little painful at times but also seem to be improving.

Bodyweight continues to drop :sad: a few pounds along with some of my training poundage's but I expected that. I continue to train hard and feel that things will start going up again in a while.

Little concerned that I may get some estrogen rebound at some point and end up having that go out of whack in the other direction over time, as I know that can happen at times after is depressed. Not sure exactly what kind of signs I should look for to identify this so feel free to chime in with any thoughts or experience.

So overall i am noticing improvement each day. Thanks for everyone's help and feel free to keep offering up the advice and comments.

Thanks,
ltyson

 

[yeahright]

Glad things are looking up for you. You did a thorough pct so I wouldn't especially worry about estrogen rebound. If your nipples start to itch then check back in. My guess is that you just pushed your estrogen and cortisol too low which lead to the libido and joint problems. Things should keep improving as your body rebalances itself.

 

[Flip]

A couple more days have passed so here is another update:

Friday - I ran 1 cap of powerfull, no retain.

Saturday - 1 cap of powerfull.

Sunday - none

Monday - none

So I have dropped all misc supps now. Using only protein powder and EFA's.

Biggest thing I have noticed is that my back has improved greatly. Back pumps are almost entirely gone although I am not pushing things to fast so i have not done heavy squats, deadlifts, etc as I don't want to aggravate it at this point, but it feels better then it has in several weeks.

Libido is up just slightly and joints are still a little painful at times but also seem to be improving.

Bodyweight continues to drop :sad: a few pounds along with some of my training poundage's but I expected that. I continue to train hard and feel that things will start going up again in a while.

Little concerned that I may get some estrogen rebound at some point and end up having that go out of whack in the other direction over time, as I know that can happen at times after is depressed. Not sure exactly what kind of signs I should look for to identify this so feel free to chime in with any thoughts or experience.

So overall i am noticing improvement each day. Thanks for everyone's help and feel free to keep offering up the advice and comments.

Thanks,
ltyson

Hey Ityson,

I am in week 3 of a HAVOC cycle at 50mg. Just a quick question about your joint pain. What joints are giving you problems? For me after bumping the dose to 50mg it was shoulders, elbows and fingers. And after a couple of days the shoulder and elbow pain have subsided but I feel like I have arthrits in both hands, very stiff and somewhat painful when I make a fist.

 

[jomi822]

and so it begins....i have a feeling well be seeing some more of these.

havoc was legitamately the harshest compound i have ever used. topped m1t by a landslide. "pulsing" and pct with this compound is no joke.

 

[ltyson]

Hey Ityson,

I am in week 3 of a HAVOC cycle at 50mg. Just a quick question about your joint pain. What joints are giving you problems? For me after bumping the dose to 50mg it was shoulders, elbows and fingers. And after a couple of days the shoulder and elbow pain have subsided but I feel like I have arthrits in both hands, very stiff and somewhat painful when I make a fist.

Shoulders and elbows primarily for me, but also some in the knees, hips, and hands at times. Now being off, the knees and such are fine but the elbows and shoulders are still bothering me just a bit but do seem to be improving. My hands though did not feel quite as bad as you have described.

Ltyson

 

[ltyson]

Glad things are looking up for you. You did a thorough post cycle therapy so I wouldn't especially worry about estrogen rebound. If your nipples start to itch then check back in. My guess is that you just pushed your estrogen and cortisol too low which lead to the libido and joint problems. Things should keep improving as your body rebalances itself.

Thank you. I will let you know how things continue.

Ltyson

 

[ltyson]

Okay some more time has passed. Have still stayed the course of no extra supps and things just keep continuing to improve. Libido is back stronger and stronger each day and joints feel better. Back pumps and the resulting pain are gone.

I took a few days off from training and instead went out and enjoyed some time with friends after work a few nights. That helped reset myself mentally. I look forward to getting back in the gym and add back some of the weight I lost.

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions. :thumbsup:

ltyson

 

[skull]

wow what a shock !--people have low estrogen problems on a methyl DHT sub--whith a AI BUILT IN IN TO BOOT!:think: :think: :nono: :thumbsup: :wtf: :fool2: :fool2:

 

[ltyson]

wow what a shock !--people have low estrogen problems on a methyl DHT sub--whith a AI BUILT IN IN TO BOOT!:think: :think: :nono: :thumbsup: :wtf: :fool2: :fool2:

Skull, what you are saying makes sense. In my case, what would you of changed in my pct?

Ltyson

 

[skull]

Skull, what you are saying makes sense. In my case, what would you of changed in my post cycle therapy?

Ltyson

well I ran a havoc 7weeker but at a lower dose --one thing I swear by is CISSUS [dry joints] but at your high doses as soon as you noticed things where going wrong you should of stopped.For post cycle therapy I like regular ATD the key is to take 1cap [takes a week to kick in and that should let you get alittle E back]and take it for like 2-3 weeks but the most important thing is to do a very slow tapper off this stuff so you dont get a E rebound

 

[ltyson]

well I ran a havoc 7weeker but at a lower dose --one thing I swear by is CISSUS [dry joints] but at your high doses as soon as you noticed things where going wrong you should of stopped.For post cycle therapy I like regular ATD the key is to take 1cap [takes a week to kick in and that should let you get alittle E back]and take it for like 2-3 weeks but the most important thing is to do a very slow tapper off this stuff so you dont get a E rebound

Good info, thank you. I appreciate your input.

ltyson

 

[Whisky]

Any updates? Thoughts after the cycle?

It’s been 11 years bro, not sure you’ll get a detailed response here lol