[thesinner]

Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things

The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great

When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?

Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).

A + B --------> C

So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.


What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.

REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).

SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.

SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:

1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.


The Different SERM's:

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for PCT
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.

Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg

Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg

Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg


Moving down the PCT Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:

B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.

Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)

7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)

7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.

Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.

Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.

At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.

Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Ecdysterone/Turkesterone
Creatine Monohydrate

Can you tell I was bored after work today?

thesinner

Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only. I don't use or condone the usage of illegally obtained chemicals.

Author's Note: I cannot and will not give out any information on obtaining any of the drugs mentioned in this article. If you send me a private message asking for sources, I will reply with the following link everytime: Google

[sean taylor]

Let me be the first to say NICE DAMN JOB MAN!!

[thesinner]

Yeah, a few weeks ago, I found myself explaining to someone that you can't buy Clomid @ Nutraplanet. I saw someone talking about using 6-oxo as a standalone PCT program this morning, and decided that was the last straw. This forum needs something so people stop wasting bandwidth saying the same things over and over again.

[sean taylor]

Needs to be a sticky somewhere and required reading before starting your first cycle

[Enigma76]

Some questions/comments.

Very well laid/thought out, informative post. Bravo.


I think your methodology is great if we're talking about a test cycle. Things you wrote change if we're talking about something that doesnt aromatize. There shouldnt be an increase in estrogen if your taking a non-aromatizing anabolic, so both estrogen and test should be close to 0. I'm not sure if this really effects the various PCT regimens (or chemicals), but just some food for thought.

Also, about raloxifene; I was under the impression that ralox takes awhile to really kick in, which is why people dont use it for a standalone SERM in PCT...they do something like nolva/ralox concurrently because the ralox takes awhile.

Maybe I'm wrong, just thought it might be something you would want to address.

[rugger48]

Im curious, why isnt letro mentioned at all?

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by Enigma76

I think your methodology is great if we're talking about a test cycle. Things you wrote change if we're talking about something that doesnt aromatize. There shouldnt be an increase in estrogen if your taking a non-aromatizing anabolic, so both estrogen and test should be close to 0. I'm not sure if this really effects the various post cycle therapy regimens (or chemicals), but just some food for thought.

Also, about raloxifene; I was under the impression that ralox takes awhile to really kick in, which is why people dont use it for a standalone SERM in PCT...they do something like nolva/ralox concurrently because the ralox takes awhile.

Maybe I'm wrong, just thought it might be something you would want to address.

Non-aromatising anabolics will increase your estrogen concentrations.

Ralox, from personal experience, works rather quickly. The reason Torem is preferred is due to less sides.

Originally Posted by rugger48

Im curious, why isnt letro mentioned at all?

Letrozole is NOT a SERM, it is a VERY potent Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), in fact it is the strongest AI there is. AI's will lower your estrogen levels, and during Post Cycle therapy, this is not desired. Letro is best used while on-cycle with an aromatizing steroid.

[Chad]

Very well done sir.

[yeahright]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again.

[CryingEmo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things

The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great

When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?

Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).

A + B --------> C

So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.


What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.

REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).

SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A PCT plan without them, isn't a PCT plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.

SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:

1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.


The Different SERM's:

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for PCT
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.

Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg

Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg

Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg


Moving down the PCT Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:

B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.

Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)

7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)

7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.

Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.

Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.

At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.

Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Ecdysterone/Turkesterone
Creatine Monohydrate

Can you tell I was bored after work today?

thesinner

Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only. I don't use or condone the usage of illegally obtained chemicals.

You're my hero.


+1 billion rep points.

[Beige]

I hope this becomes a sticky. If I had had this post before my first cycle I would have had a much easier time. Bottom line though is that some people KNOW EVERYTHING and aren't willing to learn, so this post won't come in handy until a month or so and a cycle of expensive anabolics is wasted.
Oh well...at least you can say I told you so.

[CryingEmo]

The reason people on this board prefer torm from what I can see if because people like Dr. D endorse it. Infact alot of board guru's seem to like it. The low toxicity, coupled w/ the speedy recovery seem to make it the best choice. I guess I'll find out in 1 week.

[peece]

What a nice fellow you are

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again

[thewilman]

[Big BAMA]

Extremely Helpful posting, You Rock!!!

[ugab37]

How about some example PCTs? Whats worked best for you? What the cycle consisted of? etc...

Ill go first PCT when it rolls around next. I wont list my normal preworkout formula(creatine/N.O./ etc) or AP because, they are staples for me.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, this is overkill. Its certainly a lot to take at any time. My theory is that each product has its place, and in PCT, Id prefer too much rather than too little. No, more supps doesnt guarantee a better outcome, but I feel each product has its place and is described below. This is just my opinion and what works for me.

Week 1: Torem(120mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(2pills)/ MassFx(3pills)/ Retain2.0(3pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

Week 2: Torem(90mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(3pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(3pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

Week 3: Torem(60mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(4pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(2pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

Week 4: Torem(30mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(4pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(2pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

I also use Dr.Ds 'inverse' protocol and Hyp2.0 takes the place of Atd. I prefer 6-bromo, since it doesnt negatively affect libido. Many people would only do Torem at 120 for the first 4 days, but I like to go 7 days at 120. MassFx is a great addition to PCT and 5 is where it really kicks in for me. Of course, many will need less, but for me, 5 is the sweet spot. I normally use the original retain, but the new one looks solid and it would be the only NEW supp in my PCT. RPM is freaking amazing(Ive been testing it for about 2.5 weeks now). It will make a great addition to any stack and in PCT, the increases in libido and strength will make it a breeze. Powerfull is a good Hgh promoter and it helps with libido as well. Thats my setup.

[CryingEmo]

Originally Posted by ugab37

How about some example PCTs? Whats worked best for you? What the cycle consisted of? etc...

Ill go first post cycle therapy when it rolls around next. I wont list my normal preworkout formula(creatine/N.O./ etc) or AP because, they are staples for me.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, this is overkill. Its certainly a lot to take at any time. My theory is that each product has its place, and in PCT, Id prefer too much rather than too little. No, more supps doesnt guarantee a better outcome, but I feel each product has its place and is described below. This is just my opinion and what works for me.

Week 1: Torem(120mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(2pills)/ MassFx(3pills)/ Retain2.0(3pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

Week 2: Torem(90mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(3pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(3pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

Week 3: Torem(60mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(4pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(2pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

Week 4: Torem(30mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(4pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(2pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/

I also use Dr.Ds 'inverse' protocol and Hyp2.0 takes the place of Atd. I prefer 6-bromo, since it doesnt negatively affect libido. Many people would only do Torem at 120 for the first 4 days, but I like to go 7 days at 120. MassFx is a great addition to PCT and 5 is where it really kicks in for me. Of course, many will need less, but for me, 5 is the sweet spot. I normally use the original retain, but the new one looks solid and it would be the only NEW supp in my PCT. RPM is freaking amazing(Ive been testing it for about 2.5 weeks now). It will make a great addition to any stack and in PCT, the increases in libido and strength will make it a breeze. Powerfull is a good Hgh promoter and it helps with libido as well. Thats my setup.

Ironically I have EXACTLY the same PCT lined up starting next week minus the powerfull. Good post. Reps for that.

[grila jujitsu]

would you use a serm for a pct after a cycle of havoc? i ask this because havoc is serm like.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by grila jujitsu

would you use a serm for a post cycle therapy after a cycle of havoc? i ask this because havoc is serm like.

I will answer your question with a rhetorical one:

Would you imagine a DHT derivative to be testosterone suppressive?

Rememer guys, it's all about ratios: SERMs (by their nature) will INCREASE serum levels of estrogen, but block the negative effects of high estrogen levels.

[EctoPower]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I will answer your question with a rhetorical one:

Would you imagine a DHT derivative to be testosterone suppressive?

Rememer guys, it's all about ratios: SERMs (by their nature) will INCREASE serum levels of estrogen, but block the negative effects of high estrogen levels.

You're basically a god. Just thought you should know that.

This is the best and most thorough thread I've seen since Dr. D's "How to pulse orals" thread. Great stuff! Reps, biatch!

[CryingEmo]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again.

[thesinner]

You guys are too much, I hope I don't start to develop an ego

[grila jujitsu]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I will answer your question with a rhetorical one:

Would you imagine a DHT derivative to be testosterone suppressive?

Rememer guys, it's all about ratios: SERMs (by their nature) will INCREASE serum levels of estrogen, but block the negative effects of high estrogen levels.

i just want to let you know that with ur posts you have saved my life!! thank you ! ur a good person!

[yeahright]

Originally Posted by Big BAMA

Extremely Helpful posting, You Rock!!!

That avatar is distracting.

[NAS]

nice job, good to be able to direct people this way as to proper cycles, or atleast inform.

[DaBulls]

very good info... i have one question and it may be a dumb one, but i'm new to this... i'm gonna start havoc and 3-AD soon and am trying to figure out what to do for a PCT... i have no means to get SERMs on the black market that i know of and was wondering if there is a good example of an adequate PCT without SERMs or is that pretty much a dumb question?

also, if i goto a Dr and request something like that are they gonna react strangely? lol...

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by DaBulls

very good info... i have one question and it may be a dumb one, but i'm new to this... i'm gonna start havoc and 3-AD soon and am trying to figure out what to do for a post cycle therapy... i have no means to get SERMs on the black market that i know of and was wondering if there is a good example of an adequate post cycle therapy without SERMs or is that pretty much a dumb question?

also, if i goto a Dr and request something like that are they gonna react strangely? lol...

Originally Posted by thesinner

SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:

1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.

Google is a godsend. I think I've said more than enough on this topic.

Originally Posted by DaBulls

if there is a good example of an adequate post cycle therapy without SERMs or is that pretty much a dumb question?

Neither a SERM, nor a PCT protocol are "necessary" but are both a very good and very recommended idea. Personally, I would not run a cycle without using a SERM.

[DaBulls]

[/QUOTE]Neither a SERM, nor a post cycle therapy protocol are "necessary" but are both a very good and very recommended idea. Personally, I would not run a cycle without using a SERM.[/QUOTE]

cool thanks a lot... i was kinda lookin' for guidance in that regard... just tryin to be careful.

[jonny21]

Bump

[fire69]

thanx for the info