No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
05-14-2007 06:38 PM
No Excuses & No ***** ***: A Stupid People's Guide to PCT
Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things
The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great
When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?
Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).
A + B --------> C
So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.
What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.
REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).
SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.
SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:
1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.
The Different SERM's:
Reputation: Most popular SERM for PCT
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.
Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg
Reputation: Very popular on this board
Pros: Much less toxic.
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg
Moving down the PCT Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:
B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.
Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)
7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)
7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.
Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.
Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.
At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.
Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Can you tell I was bored after work today?
Disclaimer: This post is for entertainment purposes only. I don't use or condone the usage of illegally obtained chemicals.
Author's Note: I cannot and will not give out any information on obtaining any of the drugs mentioned in this article. If you send me a private message asking for sources, I will reply with the following link everytime: Google
05-14-2007 06:47 PM
West Coast Highland Athlete
Let me be the first to say NICE DAMN JOB MAN!!
05-14-2007 06:54 PM
Yeah, a few weeks ago, I found myself explaining to someone that you can't buy Clomid @ Nutraplanet. I saw someone talking about using 6-oxo as a standalone PCT program this morning, and decided that was the last straw. This forum needs something so people stop wasting bandwidth saying the same things over and over again.
05-14-2007 06:55 PM
West Coast Highland Athlete
Needs to be a sticky somewhere and required reading before starting your first cycle
05-14-2007 09:29 PM
Very well laid/thought out, informative post. Bravo.
I think your methodology is great if we're talking about a test cycle. Things you wrote change if we're talking about something that doesnt aromatize. There shouldnt be an increase in estrogen if your taking a non-aromatizing anabolic, so both estrogen and test should be close to 0. I'm not sure if this really effects the various PCT regimens (or chemicals), but just some food for thought.
Also, about raloxifene; I was under the impression that ralox takes awhile to really kick in, which is why people dont use it for a standalone SERM in PCT...they do something like nolva/ralox concurrently because the ralox takes awhile.
Maybe I'm wrong, just thought it might be something you would want to address.
05-14-2007 09:46 PM
Im curious, why isnt letro mentioned at all?
05-14-2007 10:01 PM
Non-aromatising anabolics will increase your estrogen concentrations.
Originally Posted by Enigma76
Ralox, from personal experience, works rather quickly. The reason Torem is preferred is due to less sides.
Letrozole is NOT a SERM, it is a VERY potent Aromatase Inhibitor (AI), in fact it is the strongest AI there is. AI's will lower your estrogen levels, and during Post Cycle therapy, this is not desired. Letro is best used while on-cycle with an aromatizing steroid.
Originally Posted by rugger48
05-14-2007 10:15 PM
05-14-2007 10:31 PM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again.
05-14-2007 10:33 PM
You're my hero.
Originally Posted by thesinner
+1 billion rep points.
05-14-2007 10:52 PM
I hope this becomes a sticky. If I had had this post before my first cycle I would have had a much easier time. Bottom line though is that some people KNOW EVERYTHING and aren't willing to learn, so this post won't come in handy until a month or so and a cycle of expensive anabolics is wasted.
Oh well...at least you can say I told you so.
05-14-2007 10:54 PM
The reason people on this board prefer torm from what I can see if because people like Dr. D endorse it. Infact alot of board guru's seem to like it. The low toxicity, coupled w/ the speedy recovery seem to make it the best choice. I guess I'll find out in 1 week.
05-15-2007 01:07 AM
What a nice fellow you are
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again
05-15-2007 10:30 AM
05-17-2007 01:23 PM
Extremely Helpful posting, You Rock!!!
05-17-2007 03:29 PM
Applied Nutriceuticals Rep.
How about some example PCTs? Whats worked best for you? What the cycle consisted of? etc...
Ill go first PCT when it rolls around next. I wont list my normal preworkout formula(creatine/N.O./ etc) or AP because, they are staples for me.
DISCLAIMER: Yes, this is overkill. Its certainly a lot to take at any time. My theory is that each product has its place, and in PCT, Id prefer too much rather than too little. No, more supps doesnt guarantee a better outcome, but I feel each product has its place and is described below. This is just my opinion and what works for me.
Week 1: Torem(120mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(2pills)/ MassFx(3pills)/ Retain2.0(3pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/
Week 2: Torem(90mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(3pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(3pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/
Week 3: Torem(60mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(4pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(2pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/
Week 4: Torem(30mg)/ Hyperdrol2.0(4pills)/ MassFx(5pills)/ Retain2.0(2pills)/ RPM(5pills)/ Powerfull(4pills)/
I also use Dr.Ds 'inverse' protocol and Hyp2.0 takes the place of Atd. I prefer 6-bromo, since it doesnt negatively affect libido. Many people would only do Torem at 120 for the first 4 days, but I like to go 7 days at 120. MassFx is a great addition to PCT and 5 is where it really kicks in for me. Of course, many will need less, but for me, 5 is the sweet spot. I normally use the original retain, but the new one looks solid and it would be the only NEW supp in my PCT. RPM is freaking amazing(Ive been testing it for about 2.5 weeks now). It will make a great addition to any stack and in PCT, the increases in libido and strength will make it a breeze. Powerfull is a good Hgh promoter and it helps with libido as well. Thats my setup.
05-17-2007 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by ugab37
Ironically I have EXACTLY the same PCT lined up starting next week minus the powerfull. Good post. Reps for that.
05-17-2007 10:33 PM
would you use a serm for a pct after a cycle of havoc? i ask this because havoc is serm like.
05-18-2007 06:15 AM
I will answer your question with a rhetorical one:
Originally Posted by grila jujitsu
Would you imagine a DHT derivative to be testosterone suppressive?
Rememer guys, it's all about ratios: SERMs (by their nature) will INCREASE serum levels of estrogen, but block the negative effects of high estrogen levels.
05-18-2007 01:33 PM
You're basically a god. Just thought you should know that.
Originally Posted by thesinner
This is the best and most thorough thread I've seen since Dr. D's "How to pulse orals" thread. Great stuff! Reps, biatch!
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