My totally subjective Toremifene log

phaeton66

phaeton66

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So, brothers:

I tried some Phera-MAX, and it did wither my member and its two friends into a small piece of limp ziti and a couple of dry peas. After two weeks and a day, ramping up to 30mg a day, and salting liberally with transdermal 4-AD in a futile attempt to control the symptoms, I said the hell with that. I got with some superdrol (dosed at 10mg a day), and felt a lot better, got my sex life back, and actually gained a bunch of weight over a mere 12 days. Sure, most of it is water. Some of it ain't. I'm intrigued by the idea that the P-MAX and the superdrol had some synergistic effect in the couple of days they must have moderately overlapped; most of the weight gain happened right after I cut out the P-MAX. Maybe there is some strange synergy here, as Jaywalh pointed out the potential of in his log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/53355-phera-plex-superdrol.html

Anyway, I'm starting to feel a bit of the superdrol lethargy, and the gains have more or less stopped, so I figure it is my body telling me to quit after a grand total of 27 days. I don't feel super supressed, though my nuts are definitely not at their best. Down the hatch went 120mg of toremifene this evening, along with some tribulus. Tomorrow morning will see 200mg of DHEA for cortisol control, and maybe a little bit of clenbuterol (yeah, I know, it ain't great for the liver either).

I've got a couple bottles of actiVate I'll toss into the mix (a first for me), and some ATD products. Probably the PCT will go something like this:

Day 1-3:
120mg torem
200mg DHEA
tribulus (until the bottle is gone; then Maca)
20mcg clenbuterol

Day 4-8
60mg torem
100mg DHEA as needed
6 actiVate
Maca as needed
20mcg clenbuterol

Day 9-21
30mg torem
100mg DHEA as needed
6 activate
Maca as needed
25mg ATD

I'll continue my liver/lipid support protocol of 1800mg NAC, 300mg R-ALA, lots of sesathin, ~6g's fish oil and regular vitamins through out my PCT.

My background: Clomid makes me cry like a fat woman when you take away her hohos. Nolva is much better, but it still can get pretty bad.
ATD is really damn great in comparison, psychologically speaking. However, ATD also gives me limp-schween (which is why my "ramp up" of the stuff only goes to 25mg a day). My only actively good PCT experience was Ultra-Hotter. I'm still not sure what that stuff was (some kind of methyl-ATD thing: why this was better than plain old ATD is beyond me). It was only on sale for a few months it seemed. But it seemed to make my testosterone rise without ruining my sex life.

I'm hoping torem is going to be somewhere in between in these effects: I want to be a non-psychopath capable of having sex. I already know it will do my lipids and testosterone levels a world of good. Am I asking too much?:fool2:

Never tried the actiVate stuff, though I liked the reviews I read. I figure I don't really need the big amounts of ATD in the standard NHA stack if I'm taking a big honking SERM like torem.

Criticisms or suggestions welcome. I'm a little nervous about tossing clen in a PCT, though it is a protocol I have seen before (not so much around anabolicminds), to avoid cortisol problems, and to be able to maintain an anabolic diet without depositing too much fat.

Over all, it is sort of a short PCT, but lots of people seemed to get their nuts back quickly with torem, and I hate SERMs, so I'll see if it works.

-phaeton66
 

Jared

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Very nice little bit of poetry going on here..."I don't feel super supressed, though my nuts are definitely not at their best." Excellent line.
I think you are going to be really impressed with toremifene. It's all that I use now. Thanks for the log.
 
Sonicology

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I'll be following this as well, since I'm gonna run tor as PCT for my havoc cycle. Hope it all works out for you bro
 
phaeton66

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Day 1-3:
120mg torem
200mg DHEA
tribulus (until the bottle is gone; then Maca)
20mcg clenbuterol
Day 1: I hate clenbuterol. I didn't sleep well the night I took the first torem dose, and the clen didn't help stay awake the next day. Just made me feel like dirt. Libido is in the dumpster. My skin is super oily, the way it generally gets when I take a SERM.

Day 2: I feel pretty good, actually. Slept last night. That helps. No clen; that also helps. Don't feel too crazy. I have a functioning libido, and thanks in part to some cialis (insurance: I'm popular), a working schlong. Still feeling a bit sluggish. Hey; it's PCT. This is damn good PCT so far. Still got the oily skin. Looking forward to the allegedly spectacular third day at 120mg.

Incidentally, the variety of liquid torem I have isn't that bad tasting. Tastes like a mixture of minty milk of magnesia and nolva. I'm still capping most of it.

People say that torem makes them emotional. I don't feel too emotional. I feel perhaps a little more sympathetic than usual, but I'm not the fruity wreck I usually am on a SERM.:woohoo:

-p66
 
phaeton66

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Day 3: Feeling pretty good, though a bit moody. The gym went pretty well; all the weights are up slightly. I've got a zit! Woo-hoo; I am going through puberty again.

Day 4: my testicles are definitely coming back. The SHBG stuff is working too. I think I'll skip DHEA tomorrow. Over all, a nice feeling of well being!
 
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wastedwhiteboy2

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I wonder if the addition of activate is going to help with the feeling of well being. I guess the nut size should be an indictor for the torm.
 

wiggles

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I'm assuming you have liquid Torm. How do you take the doses? Mix it with some gatorade or just straight up shoot that stuff to the back of your throat or what? Scratch that, I just noticed I over looked that you said you are capping it. Well do you think it is OK to take it either way i mentioned?

Also you say DHEA as needed, what makes you determine if it's needed or not, your sex drive or lack there of?
 
phaeton66

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Day 5: my testicles are actually in pain from rapid growth. It's kind of a needle like pain. Not horrible, but, wow, I'm growing a pair. I could tell they were physically coming back yesterday. Now they're, well, getting hoooge. The left one is noticably bigger. Skipping DHEA gave me a headache today. Either that or my pineal gland is doing what my testes are. In gym: all weights are up. Muscle mass is the same. I took GABA + melatonin last night. I'm taking GABA again tonight. I read somewhere that GABA inhibits LH, but I don't think I have any problems there, and a little extra GH with better sleep probably will do my PCT a world of good.

Incidentally, this is my best PCT ever. This substance is definitely a winner. No more nolva or clomid for me.
 
phaeton66

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I wonder if the addition of activate is going to help with the feeling of well being. I guess the nut size should be an indictor for the torm.
I'm guessing it is activate which makes me feel actively good (never took it before, but it feels like testosterone to me, which is a great feeling on PCT), but I didn't cycle it in until day 4 or so, and I felt pretty OK on day 1-3. What I guess I'm saying is, yeah, activate helps, but the mixture of DHEA and torem is not terrible either.
 
phaeton66

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I'm assuming you have liquid Torm. How do you take the doses? Mix it with some gatorade or just straight up shoot that stuff to the back of your throat or what? Scratch that, I just noticed I over looked that you said you are capping it. Well do you think it is OK to take it either way i mentioned?

Also you say DHEA as needed, what makes you determine if it's needed or not, your sex drive or lack there of?
I capped the first day out of sheer terror in the bad reviews of taste. After that, I just shot it down my throat. The stuff I have actually doesn't taste bad at all; not at all the vomity horror people were saying. Mine tastes like philips milk of magnesia; minty and chalky. Much better than nolva in alcohol; eeew. I'd love to pimp the guys who sold it to me, as they're really helpful, but it's against the board rules. The search engine is your friend. They're the ones who have it in stock.

For DHEA, I take it when I feel "cracked out." There is an icky, worn down feeling I get from PCT in general, which DHEA seems to help with. I think Dr. D (who gave me the idea of tossing some in there) indicated that using exogenous steroids will suppress your DHEA levels a bit, and adding in the supp helps make things feel normal until the over all hormone levels come back to something approaching normality.
 
phaeton66

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Day 6: nothing to report. Good day in gym. I sleep like a log on GABA.

Day 7: "And my balls are always bouncing, To the left and to the right. It's my belief that my big balls should be held every night."

Seriously; this stuff makes your 'nads grow. They still ache a little, but I think the worst has passed in that regard. I can't even imagine what it is like to have them re-inflate in 3 days like some have reported. Must hurt a lot.

I've been hungry as hell, and unable to eat as regularly, due to various life demands. Hopefully this doesn't evaporate my gains, which have been holding out pretty well.
 
pistonpump

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As i prepare for post cycle therapy its nice to see balls blowing up from toremifene. I think i got it from the same place as you cant wait to see the nutsack get back to normal size.
 
wastedwhiteboy2

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this stuff sounds like it will be my next pct.
 
phaeton66

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Day 6: nothing to report.
Day 8-12, I continue to make progress in the gym, using GABA as sleepy time therapy. I think in this last period, I have made no further giant strides in "PCT progress." As such, I'll do a 'round 14 days at >=60mg of torem, and then ramp down to 30mg, and kick in a 25mg tab of ATD for a week. I honestly feel like I could stop the PCT now, and I'd be fine, but I'd like to make sure there is no more estrogen floating about my system. And, shucks, if my nuts get any bigger, that would be kind of cool too.

I've been consistent in my use of ActiVate. I never bought the planned bottle of Maca, and just took the couple of days worth of tribulus I had left at the beginning of the PCT. Frankly, I take so many damn supps, with the NAC,R-ALA, fish oil, sesathin, piracatem, vitties and the PCT itself, I don't have much more room for anything else.

I've been inconsistent with the use of DHEA. As such, I attribute a lot of the "sense of well being" I've felt, as well as positive libido effects to the DHEA. Basically, I feel better and am hornier when I take the stuff. My increases in strength are comparable to what I got from the SD cycle; I attribute this to good training and the actiVate, which is wonderful, wonderful stuff. I still feel pretty good without the DHEA, but I feel really great with it. I'm guessing the cortisol control aspect of the stuff is pretty healthy. I should probably be more consistent in the next week or so.

Finally, I am convinced that GABA is not only is a nice sleep suppliment, it really does do something to GH levels. My body fat monitor says I'm getting leaner than I was on-cycle, with no diet changes, and a substantial ramp back in training volume. I sleep like a log, and I feel, well, more relaxed than usual, in a very good way. I also found this, which indicates that it might not inhibit LH (which I originally thought might be a GABA problem), but do the opposite:
Gamma-Aminobutyric Acid Effects on Pituitary Gonadotropin Secretion -- Ondo 186 (4165): 738 -- Science

As such, GABA in the evening is going to be an important part of all my PCT stacks. I didn't like the stuff the first couple times I tried it; made me all numb and out of breath. But the extra deep sleep, the extra calmness and the burst of GH and possible LH makes it a must have.

Finally: torem is great. By now on a nolva PCT, I'd be feeling trashy and eyeing my jar of 4-AD and wondering if, well, just a little couldn't hurt. On clomid, I'd be bawling my eyes out at photos of kittens. Torem, I just feel like myself. Myself with preturnaturally large family jewels, but myself. The only real change I'd make to my original plan is to keep the dose high for an extra day. I will never run a PCT without this stuff. It works faster than anything else, and appears to have no sides.

Recommended PCT thus far:
Day 1-4
120mg torem
200mg DHEA in the morning
3-5grams of GABA in the evening

Day 5-14
60mg torem
100mg DHEA in the morning
6 actiVate over the course of the day
3-5 grams of GABA in the evening

Day 14-21 (haven't gotten here yet)
30mg torem
100mg DHEA in the morning
6 activate over the day
25mg ATD product
3-5 grams of GABA in the evening
 
phaeton66

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As i prepare for post cycle therapy its nice to see balls blowing up from toremifene. I think i got it from the same place as you cant wait to see the nutsack get back to normal size.
You will not regret it.
I feel like I just discovered steroids or something.
:clap2:
 
phaeton66

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update... ?
Sorry guys, my schlong and testicles fell off, and I had to get 'em sewed back on.

:icon_lol:

I finished out the PCT as planned. The ATD part sucked; towards the end of it, I had no libido. Next time, I'll just be doing the torem + activate + GABA. I really like the GABA. I really dislike ATD. This substance ruins my libido. As for the activate, I attribute my 2lb of PCT muscle gain to this substance. Yes, I gained muscle in PCT. Lost a little fat, too, according to the lard-o-meter. I'm still taking activate, FWIIW, though I have heard people say your body adjusts after 3-4 weeks to render it ineffective. Is there anything known about using it in the long term?

I might have experienced the "spacey" feeling which some others have reported from toremifene. I think someone described it like being a small dose of acid. It was like that, but sleepier. I thought it might have been the GABA, but it went away with the torem. Could also have just been "one of those things," and totally unrelated to torem. I was probably pretty severely overtrained at the time, so it might just have been that. It wasn't a horrible feeling anyway. Nolva, I associate with feeling like all kinds of horrible.

Anyway, my final word on torem is two thumbs and a schlong pointing in the upward direction. I am pretty sure I could have just run it for a week and a half and been completely PCT-ed. The rapid testicle growth was truly uncanny.
:dance:

Here's the only downside to the stuff. It works so well, I no longer feel any of the residual reluctance I used to have to doing stuff. I feel great while on things like 4-AD and superdrol. I feel pretty great while on torem (Nolva was hell). I'll try to give it a couple of months before I cycle again, but the temptation to go visit the veteranary supply store, or my SD stash is pretty big.
 

wiggles

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So based on the way your PCT worked for you do you have any thoughts on this PCT:

4 days of Torm @ 120 and then dropping it to 90/45/45
4 days of DHEA @ 200 and then 50/25/25
Fenugreek @ 3/4/5/6
Jungle Warfare starting on the 4th day @ 1/2/3 (continue to finish bottle)

Do you think I should drop the DHEA? I've read that DHEA can lead to delayed gyno and also be supressive and delay recovery. Do you disagree?
 
phaeton66

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So based on the way your post cycle therapy worked for you do you have any thoughts on this PCT:

4 days of Torm @ 120 and then dropping it to 90/45/45
4 days of DHEA @ 200 and then 50/25/25
Fenugreek @ 3/4/5/6
Jungle Warfare starting on the 4th day @ 1/2/3 (continue to finish bottle)

Do you think I should drop the DHEA? I've read that DHEA can lead to delayed gyno and also be supressive and delay recovery. Do you disagree?
I strongly disagree on the DHEA being a problem. It's the most common hormone in your body, for pete's sake. If you're really worried about it converting, use the 7-Keto variety. It controls cortisol and makes you feel better; it will be a part of all my subsequent PCT's. Still though, compared to the torm, it is a detail.

I wouldn't argue with your dosing schedule, though I would use more DHEA.
 

wiggles

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Oh, I thought you had said you liked the DHEA, but then i read "Next time, I'll just be doing the torem + activate + GABA." so you had me confused.
 
phaeton66

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Oh, I thought you had said you liked the DHEA, but then i read "Next time, I'll just be doing the torem + activate + GABA." so you had me confused.


I guess I double confused you; sorry. I like the DHEA fine, and will take it in the future (along with torem + activate + GABA). What didn't agree with me was the ATD.
 

Gettingback

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Great Log - How does this PCT look:

PCT:

1.) Toremifene! 120 first 4 days, then to 90 for 3, 60 for 2 weeks, and 30 for one.

2.) USP Labs PowerFULL - Full dosing starting on last day of cycle.

3.) Fenugeek - 3/4/5/6

How does that look? Should I add in DHEA and if I should, how much?
 
JohnnyHads

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How does PowerFull relate to GABA?

I ordered some powerFULL for a future PCT, should I use GABA, or ActiVate as well ?

Im looking at torem, powerFULL, DHEA, Vitamin E and supps
 
phaeton66

phaeton66

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Great Log - How does this post cycle therapy look:

PCT:

1.) Toremifene! 120 first 4 days, then to 90 for 3, 60 for 2 weeks, and 30 for one.

2.) USP Labs PowerFULL - Full dosing starting on last day of cycle.

3.) Fenugeek - 3/4/5/6

How does that look? Should I add in DHEA and if I should, how much?
I like DHEA for cortisol control, at the levels I mentioned above (200mg /day for the first week, then 100mg/day). I don't know what is in PowerFULL; I assume it is like activate. Anyway, looks good. The main thing is the torem.

-p66
 
phaeton66

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a request

Thank you all for your nice feedback on my log.
...but...

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything, but my interpretation of the board rules tells me that, no, in fact I cannot tell you where I got my torem. I'd love to; they are really good guys. But I can't. Please don't PM me and ask me this question; many have already asked, and I'm sick of saying no. Google is your friend. That's how I found it, and I'm not especially bright. If you want confirmation that it was indeed the same source; ask them if the chit is minty fresh like mine was.

As an update:
I remain very much PCT-ed. No estrogen whiplash. No post cycle woes at all. I have, in fact, never felt better. Never been stronger. BTW, I lost 2 of the pounds I apparently gained during my activate + torm PCT. I suspect they were just some kind of glycogen load.


Anyway, I remain :woohoo:
 

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