Let the AI debates commence!

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    Let the AI debates commence!


    I am really interested in seeing some discussion/studies on the use of steroidal AI's in post cycle therapy after a non aromatizing cycle.

    I see it used/recommended time and time again but can not for the life of me figure out why they would be advocated for this purpose.

    I believe at the end of one of the aforementioned cycles your estrogen levels should already be low as the shut down would leave very little natty test to aromatize into E. So why add an AI from the getgo?

    I hear time and time again that "it's better to be safe than sorry when it comes to post cycle therapy so the more the better", but is that really sound advice? Having too little estrogen is not a good thing and has it's own set of side effects such as hindered immune system, raised LDL, lowered HDL, joint problems etc.

    So lets hear it. Should they be used for these purposes and why or why not?
    Recent log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213350-lean-efx-refined.html

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    I cant really help you out here, cuz I never use an AI during post cycle. I only use them while ON cycle, if need be.
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    My first "cycle" I used Nolva.

    This TST/TRN will incorporate Dr. D's tapering system with Toremifene and Rebound Reloaded.
    (And a bunch of other goodies. )

    I will - of course - keep you guys updated on how it works. (Don't I always?)
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    In general, a non aromatizing cycle tends be less suppressive. An example on the extreme of this, is Phera-plex with almost no suppression of Testosterone or estrogen.

    All AIs are not the same, as an example ADT blocks both the estrogen and androgen path ways in htpa control in the brain along with acting as estrogen suppressor. More than 50 mgs tends to shut off libido, but 50mg ATD and ActiveTE into post cycle therapy on the NHA cycle.

    I do agree with you that driving estrogen to very low levels isn't good for your heath.

    Hope this helps
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    No article though. But BP, you know I agree with you in not using an AI in non-aromatizing cycles. It just doesn't make sense to completely destroy your estrogen levels. I am too lazy to write it out right now, but I concocted a theory on why people are experiencing delayed gyno after Superdrol. But basically it centres around the Estrogen influx that should theoretically occur after suppressing your estrogen when it is already low..Maybe tommorrow I'll think about it some more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    No article though. But BP, you know I agree with you in not using an AI in non-aromatizing cycles. It just doesn't make sense to completely destroy your estrogen levels. I am too lazy to write it out right now, but I concocted a theory on why people are experiencing delayed gyno after Superdrol. But basically it centres around the Estrogen influx that should theoretically occur after suppressing your estrogen when it is already low..Maybe tommorrow I'll think about it some more.
    Ya, basically if you don't taper out of severe estrogen suppresion then estrogen overshoot (rebound) is very possible. I like to taper in and out estrogen supression. Superdrol is both testosterone and estrogen suppression in about equal amounts so testosterone levels don't drop much. I wondering if the estrogen suppressive nature of Superdrol has a very long life.
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    i used only an AI after a pp/hd cycle. best pct ive ever had! even if the estrogen is low, it still increases your natural test.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    Ya, basically if you don't taper out of severe estrogen suppresion then estrogen overshoot (rebound) is very possible. I like to taper in and out estrogen supression. Superdrol is both testosterone and estrogen suppression in about equal amounts so testosterone levels don't drop much. I wondering if the estrogen suppressive nature of Superdrol has a very long life.
    I think it may, and the overshoot is so delayed that in turn individuals are experiencing gyno symptoms months after their post cycle therapy is completed. As you said, superdrol is equally suppressive, but by dosing an ATD you completely decimate your estrogen levels instead of allowing it to return in sync, or to a degree, with your testosterone. Then, when it does start coming back, it rises in a disproportionate amount and since the individual is no longer dosing a SERM that overshoot estrogen is free to bind to the receptors, and voila, 'delayed gyno'..I am an idiot though, so anybody reading take what I just said with a grain of salt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
    I think it may, and the overshoot is so delayed that in turn individuals are experiencing gyno symptoms months after their post cycle therapy is completed. As you said, superdrol is equally suppressive, but by dosing an ATD you completely decimate your estrogen levels instead of allowing it to return in sync, or to a degree, with your testosterone. Then, when it does start coming back, it rises in a disproportionate amount and since the individual is no longer dosing a SERM that overshoot estrogen is free to bind to the receptors, and voila, 'delayed gyno'..I am an idiot though, so anybody reading take what I just said with a grain of salt.
    I understand what you are saying, but isn't just ATD or something else. They come up with this Super Duper post cycle therapy with everything but the kitchen sink in it.

    Giving your body 3 or 4 days to adjust to each estrogen suppressing dosing change will allow keep from slamming your hormones around so far. I think the other thing people are missing is if you are successfull in doubling or Tripling your natural testosterone and you suddenly stop estrogen suppression. Then your natural testosterone overshoots to the low side and tends to stay low.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Werewolf
    In general, a non aromatizing cycle tends be less suppressive. An example on the extreme of this, is Phera-plex with almost no suppression of Testosterone or estrogen.

    All AIs are not the same, as an example ADT blocks both the estrogen and androgen path ways in htpa control in the brain along with acting as estrogen suppressor. More than 50 mgs tends to shut off libido, but 50mg ATD and ActiveTE into post cycle therapy on the NHA cycle.

    I do agree with you that driving estrogen to very low levels isn't good for your heath.

    Hope this helps
    Thanks for posting the article.

    I would like to see some bloodwork that shows "little" shutdown with PP and some of the other orals for that matter. I know M1T and superdrol shut me down and quick and I have never seen anything as anabolic as PP that didn't.

    I am not saying ATD does not have ANY place in post cycle therapy just that I do not believe it is warranted or adviseable after a PP, superdrol, Ergo, MTrn etc, etc.

    Take a look at the bloodwork this guy just posted only mid way through a superdrol cycle:

    Quote Originally Posted by daveydoodle
    Long story short, mid cycle bloodwork with superdrol.

    Cholesterol (MG/DL) – 130
    Triglyceride (MG/DL) – 80
    HDL (MG/DL) – 10 (very low)
    LDL (MG/DL) – 104
    AST (IU/L) – 32
    ALT (IU/L) – 45
    Alkaline Phosphate (IU/L) – 41
    Albumin (GM/DL) – 4.6
    Bilirubin (total) (MG/DL) – 0.4
    Testosterone (total) (NG/DL) - 55

    The only thing that really concerns me is the total test. I'm wondering if that is a mistake, or perhaps an incorrect unit of measure. I'm not lethargic, ample libido, and am getting stronger and BIGGER by the day. So I'm not sure how this can be correct. The normal range in this unit of measure should be 241 -827 NG/DL. Thoughts??!!
    Very little shutdown?
    Recent log:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/213350-lean-efx-refined.html
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    I think stanazolol would be the lowest shutdown of the orals, but, they all shut you down, so if your doing a 4 week cycle, your shutdown, no way to get around that.
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    this might be a little off topic but Ive been using some type of atd ethier for post cycle therapy or as a type of hrt [just about since it came out] as a means of keeping test up and estrogen down.If its for post cycle therapy I take recomended amount.If for hrt 2 caps aweek.Now that Im 41 I know my natural test is down .At 2caps aweek I have no problems I keep my gains and I believe its somewhat healthy.Now that I started using cissus with it I may have stumbled upon an exc:squat: elent muscle building natural combo -anyway I wouldnt be a good case for your post seems you might be advocating the use of nolva over atd to get back to your natural state?:squat:
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    Post


    Quote Originally Posted by skull
    this might be a little off topic but Ive been using some type of atd ethier for post cycle therapy or as a type of hrt [just about since it came out] as a means of keeping test up and estrogen down.If its for post cycle therapy I take recomended amount.If for hrt 2 caps aweek.Now that Im 41 I know my natural test is down .At 2caps aweek I have no problems I keep my gains and I believe its somewhat healthy.Now that I started using cissus with it I may have stumbled upon an exc:squat: elent muscle building natural combo -anyway I wouldnt be a good case for your post seems you might be advocating the use of nolva over atd to get back to your natural state?:squat:
    Interesting, you may want to check out this link:

    Andropause
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    Interesting, you may want to check out this link:

    Andropause
    There is another thread on AM, where Dr D and Rogue Drone were talking about using ATD as HRT. Something like 25-50 mg every 7 days(thats once every seven days). I think this is correct, but don't have time to search for the link. I have noticed that for me taking 25 mg Uhotter every other day and i have increased libidio. I go up to 50 and eventually lose libidio, Uhotter has Avena Sativa in it. The NHA stack could proably be used in the same way.
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    interesting read- I would think that most guys who lift would be above average but its a double edged sword because we burn out our hormones quicker too so if we could find somthing to at least maintain test it would be like the fountain of youth
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