- 11-04-2005, 01:05 AM
I just wanna share this info about a new treatment for those who have gyno issues and don't wanna shell out the cash for surgery. Now know that you'll have to get a couple of bottles, but hey, spending $100-200 on some Raloxifene beats the heck outta $3k on surgery (that's for a cheapo surgeon).
Here's a copy/paste from a guy's thread here on AnabolicMinds:
Originally Posted by Danl4560
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMS)
EVISTA® (raloxifene hydrochloride) is a selective estrogen receptor modulator (SERM) that belongs to the benzothiophene class of compounds.
The chemical designation is methanone, [6-hydroxy-2-(4-hydroxyphenyl)benzo[ b]thien-3-yl]-[ 4-[ 2-(1-piperidinyl) ethoxy] phenyl]-, hydrochloride. Raloxifene hydrochloride (HCl) has the empirical formula C28H27NO4S • HCl, which corresponds to a molecular weight of 510.05. Raloxifene HCl is an off-white to pale-yellow solid that is very slightly soluble in water. Raloxifene (Evista) has the ability to bind to and activate the estrogen receptor while exhibiting tissue-specific effects distinct from estradiol. As a result, raloxifene is the first of a benzothiophene series of antiestrogens to be labeled a SERM.
Raloxifene was specifically developed to maintain beneficial estrogenic activity on bone and lipids and antiestrogenic activity on endometrial and breast tissue. In December 1997, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) labeled raloxifene for the prevention of osteoporosis.
Although the exact mechanism of action of raloxifene and other similar compounds has not yet been determined, it has been hypothesized that these agents work by inducing conformational changes in the estrogen receptor, resulting in differential expression of specific estrogen-regulated genes in different tissues. Activation of the estrogen receptor by these compounds may involve multiple molecular pathways that may result in gene expression of ligand-, tissue- and/or gene-specific receptors.
Because SERMs are capable of inducing specific changes in the estrogen receptor, it is not surprising that they may mediate specific pharmacologic activity through their unique agonist or antagonist properties. For example, the agonistic properties of raloxifene on bone tissue were recently demonstrated by the specific activation of the human transforming growth factor-b3 gene, which is an important regulator of bone remodeling.
Raloxifene also appears to have a favorable effect on lipid parameters in postmenopausal women. In the published European trial,13 treatment with raloxifene in a dosage of 30, 60 or 150 mg per day resulted in significant decreases in the serum concentrations of total and low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol over a 24-month period (P < 0.05 versus placebo). These decreases were evident during the first three months of therapy and were maintained thereafter. Notably, none of the treatment groups showed any changes in serum concentrations of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol and triglycerides.
BOTH Raloxifene and Tamoxifen are highly effective, with Raloxifene being somewhat more effective. But both have been proven to work. So don't listen to your wanna-be internet gurus who say there's no way to reduce existing gyno. Nolva has been used for this in studies for years, and now we have an even stronger ally.
Here is a study regarding the effects of Raloxifene compared to Tamoxifen on gyno:
1: J Pediatr. 2004 Jul;145(1):71-6. Related Articles, Links
* J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;146(4):576; author reply 576-7.
* J Pediatr. 2005 Apr;146(4):576; author reply 576-7.
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada.
OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifene in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.
STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).
RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.
CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.
PMID: 15238910 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR REPRODUCTIVE MEDICINE
Formerly The American Fertility Society
1209 MontgomeryHighway • Birmingham, Alabama 35216-2809 • T E L (205) 978-5000 • FAX (205) 978-5005 • E-MAIL a s r m @ a s r m . o rg • URL w w w. a s r m . o rg
PATIENT’S FACT SHEET
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators (SERMs)
Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. Today SERMs are used for the menopausal woman as an alternative to estrogen replacement and by infertile women for ovulation induction. For menopausal women, the ideal SERM would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. Although SERMs may not be closely related chemically to the estrogen produced in a woman’s body, people sometimes use the term “designer estrogen” to describe them.
Raloxifene (Marketed as Evista™)
• Primary Indication – FDA-approved for prevention and treatment of osteoporosis in postmenopausal women.
• Bone Effects – Increases bone density, although apparently to a lesser degree than estrogen or bisphosphonates (Fosamax™, Actonel™). Raloxifene reduces the risk of fractures in women with a history of osteoporosis.
• Breast Effects – Does not appear to harm the breast or increase the risk of breast cancer. One study has shown an association with raloxifene and a lower risk of breast cancer in average-risk women. Studies are ongoing to determine if raloxifene reduces the risk of breast cancer in high-risk women.
• Cardiovascular Effects – Decreases total cholesterol and low-density cholesterol (“bad cholesterol”). Raloxifene has no effect on high-density cholesterol (“good cholesterol”) and triglycerides.
• Venous Thrombosis – Like estrogen, raloxifene increases risk of deep venous thrombosis (blood clots).
• Menopausal Symptoms – Does not relieve vasomotor flushes. In fact, they are a common side effect. Raloxifene does not relieve vaginal dryness.
- 11-04-2005, 02:25 AM
Get surgery, it doesn't work.
I tried it for at least 3 months, the Raloxifene, plus with RXT during some of the time.
- 11-04-2005, 11:06 AM
You're right. The clinicial studies are all lies. LOL!
Actually, what were your dosages? Most people use way too little for too short a time, and don't stay off cycle either. And using RXT? WHY? It's a super-weak AI. Not very effective. I don't even know why this guy in the example wasted his time with it.
And that's a pretty bold statement to say that just because something didn't work for you that it doesn't work at all. Especially with all the clinical evidence showing otherwise. Do you have some basis for that statement, other than your own experience?
11-05-2005, 10:51 AM
11-05-2005, 12:26 PM
Lemme guess : for testosterone production. What do I win? Another rep point?
This raloxifene sounds good though. Can it be substituted for Nolva or is nolva still needed for PCT? With clomid? I have gyno and will do what it takes to get rid of it. Might use a transdermal fat-solver on top of the Ralox.
Keep the information coming, man.
11-05-2005, 01:36 PM
Just because it didn't work for one person certainly doesn't mean it won't work for anyone.Originally Posted by darius
Its just like with anything else, its hard to tell how your body will respond. But from all of the studies I have read (its only a few, but still) the incidence of gyno reduction was quite a bit higher than with tamoxifen.
11-06-2005, 03:05 AM
Easy, killer. Not ragging on you at all. I have a great deal of respect for your experience.Originally Posted by Danl4560
I just don't know why you used a super-weak AI like ATD instead of Anastrozole or Letrozole instead.
11-06-2005, 05:25 AM
This, I'm also very curious about. I hope Dr.D or some other knowledgeable guy chimes in to enlighten us.Originally Posted by Grunt76
11-06-2005, 10:50 AM
From my reading to date, although those trying it are reporting increased libido, the studies are for me, not conclusive enough to make me switch to Raloxifene for PCT. The ones I've seen show little to no increase in serum testosterone levels.
11-06-2005, 11:04 AM
ATD alone seems to work for gyno reduction in some, and raloxifene does as well, so I figured I'd stack the two.Originally Posted by N4cer
11-06-2005, 12:56 PM
I used 120mg's for 3 and a half months. When I used it I was "off" cycle for over 6 months. Wrong, RXT is a strong AI (20mg dose daily).Originally Posted by N4cer
I honestly don't care what you think, I'm just giving you my insight. I did Raloxifene for almost 4 months, with RXT for about half that time, plus I did topical 3-Alpha powder suspended in Ab-Solved for 3 weeks. It didn't work, at least on my pubertal gyno. Maybe it will work for you, maybe the moon will turn green, I don't know, its possible.
My cousin did the same long drawn cycle of Raloxifene with not much results either.
All it does is make things feel different inside, and it sorta appears to be getting smaller, but it doesn't get smaller. Maybe temporarily smaller. How many of your studies did follow ups on the people they studied to see if it came back? Because I could have sworn my gyno was cut in half, only to come back. I bought a ton of bottles of Raloxifene and tons of 3-alpha to which I probably won't even use anymore. It's a waste imo, at least for me. I spent too much money for nothing.
11-07-2005, 12:01 AM
Wow that sucks. Could it have been rebound related? Or did you do a proper taper of the SERM? And where did you get that ATD is a strong AI? It's much weaker than letrozole or anastrozole, both of which are readily available.
11-07-2005, 01:49 AM
I don't think it was rebound related, I tapered the Raloxifene, about 3 weeks of tapering consistently, and I used RXT a bit after to make sure I didn't have this sick increase of estrogen right after. ATD is strong stuff for me, drys my joints bad, gives me facial/back/shoulder acne, more oily skin, more hair fallout. I've used Superdrol, 19-Nor, M4OHN, Prostanozol, and RXT gave me the most side effects out of all of those. I'd say it was pretty strong, at least for me. I could not use 30mg of it, I had to use 20mg, cause the acne was too much at 30mg.Originally Posted by N4cer
N4cer, shoot me an email.
11-16-2005, 03:24 PM
11-17-2005, 06:30 PM
11-17-2005, 07:27 PM
11-21-2005, 06:38 PM
Honestly the best method of reducing pre existing gyno is Letro it is the most powerfull of all AIs
The thing is many will have success with SERMs but with the last stitch efforts to those that have tred everything is LETRO
SERMs are effective but are still in themselves weak estrogen and the existing gyno will still see it as such but when you completley starve the tissue from all estrogen is when the magic happens.
Of course there is always going to be non responders and surgery will be the ONLY optiopn from them.
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