still confused on HCG. help!!!

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    still confused on HCG. help!!!


    hey guys. startin second cycle soon and am definately addng hcg to this one. first off, stats are 6'2, 228, 12 percent bf, age 25, one cycle under belt, 10 wks test en, 1-4 dbol, 12-14 40,30,20 nolva. problem was when cycle was over i crashed HARD, stopped eating, lifting, lost almost all gains, lost all strenght, depressed, etc. so i'm wanting to use the hcg to help stimulate test and avoid crash. problem is i've heard so many different opinions on it that i am at a loss as to how to do it. i expereinced some significant atrophy during last cycle and want to avoid that this time. so i was wanting to run the hcg from week 5-15 of my cycle at 500 i.u.s every 5 days. but then i came across this.

    "Cycles on the HCG should be kept down to around 3 weeks at a time with an off cycle of at least a month in between. For example, one might use the HCG for 2 or 3 weeks in the middle of a cycle, and for 2 or 3 weeks at the end of a cycle. It has been speculated that the prolonged use of HCG could permanently, repress the body's own production of gonadotropins. This is why short cycles are the best way to go."

    while i agree with this, i've had lots of advice to go ahead and run it during the cycle. i was curious as to what you guys think would be the best way to run this. i don't want to just wait until the end of my cycle to run it as i would like to use the hcg as a prevention against atrophy rather than just a cure. thanks.

    cycle will be


    Week 1-4 40mg dbol e.d.
    Week 1-12 625mg megatest blend
    Week 9-14 50mg winstrol e.d.
    Week 1-12 .5mg arimidex e.o.d.
    Week 5-15 500i.u. HCG every 5th day
    Week 15-18 80mg on day one in divided dose and then 40mg /day for a week and then 20mg/day for at least 3 more weeks.

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    general rule of thumb I find that 250iu's 2x weekly works perfect!

    If im running long esters and inject mon/thur I usually shoot my 250iu's on mon/thur also.

    Also...as far as post-cycle...I would NEVER run HCG any further than right up to PCT for the sheer fact that it by itself is suppressive and thus would be working against you in PCT.

    regards,
    COTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff33333
    "Cycles on the HCG should be kept down to around 3 weeks at a time with an off cycle of at least a month in between. For example, one might use the HCG for 2 or 3 weeks in the middle of a cycle, and for 2 or 3 weeks at the end of a cycle. It has been speculated that the prolonged use of HCG could permanently, repress the body's own production of gonadotropins. This is why short cycles are the best way to go."
    i wouldn't put much faith in that. swale recommends HCG throughout the cycle as COTC outlined. 250iu's 2x/wk. and swale is well versed in this area, being a HRT doc, he deals with this all the time.
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    re


    Quote Originally Posted by CarryOnTheChaos
    general rule of thumb I find that 250iu's 2x weekly works perfect!

    If im running long esters and inject mon/thur I usually shoot my 250iu's on mon/thur also.

    Also...as far as post-cycle...I would NEVER run HCG any further than right up to PCT for the sheer fact that it by itself is suppressive and thus would be working against you in PCT.

    regards,
    COTC
    thanks chaos and beezelbub. solid advice. just one last question then for chaos. so do you start the hcg on week 1 of your cycle and run it till your last week or do you start like mid cycle? thanks again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff33333
    thanks chaos and beezelbub. solid advice. just one last question then for chaos. so do you start the hcg on week 1 of your cycle and run it till your last week or do you start like mid cycle? thanks again.

    Most start 4 to 6 weeks into a cycle but I have a feeling if you start week 1 you'll have a better PCT.

    I've always started swale's protocol at week 4 but from here on out I am going to go with week 1.
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    anyone have a link to swale's article on this? thanks.
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    i do not have the link but i believe that when to start sort of depends on the compounds used in the cycle. I typically start @ week 4 never earlier or later...but PCT seems to go pretty smooth for me IMO.

    regards,
    COTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff33333
    anyone have a link to swale's article on this? thanks.
    I don't have a link, but I do have a copy of the article. Here you go...

    SWALE PCT Protocol

    Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

    Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

    Here it is:

    I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

    Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

    If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

    The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

    I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge?. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool? the body—it is smarter than you are.

    I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

    All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
  

  
 

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