PCT Calculator

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bulkmuscle

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I don't know how many of you currently do a typical PCT 2 weeks after your last shot of enanthate, but this should enlighten you on why you shouldn't. Very handy tool for calculating when to properly start your PCT.
 

Nate Dawg

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Thats very interesting....I would feel uncomfortable starting pct 6 weeks after my last shot....
 

bulkmuscle

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That is why you shouldn't go cold turkey off long esters.

Read the FAQ, it explains it quite well :D
 

Nate Dawg

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Now I really dont have the knowledge about what equations to use for half-lives and what is right, but I just dont know if I trust that calculator. I have ran a chart for a 10 week test enan cycle at 600mg/week using the equation given in this thread http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24796 and ran it out to 3 weeks past the last shot, and the test levels in week 13 were down to around 100mg/week, just when recommended to start pct. According to the calculator given, running the same cycle at 10 weeks 600mg/week, cycle ends day 70, pct starts day 114...44 days later?!? Like I said earlier I dont exactly know the correct formula for figuring this out as there seems to be several out there, I am just really doubting this one.

I understand how the amount of esterfied hormone will build up in your body over time, but there will be a certain point where it will stop climbing, which using the equation I got from Skye, is around week 9-10 with test enanthate, figuring a 10.5 day half-life, so the absolute longest a shot of test enanthate could even be active would be 21 days, no matter if it was a 500mg shot or 2000mg shot, in 10.5 days half of the shot will be released and used up, then 10.5 days later the rest will be gone. I am sure there will still be some lingering around for awhile after that, but not enough to keep you suppressed 7 weeks later I doubt.

If someone with a better understanding of this subject could chime in and back me up, or prove me wrong, that would be great :D
 

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Remember, half-life follows a logarithmic scale and not a linear scale. Example:
2000 mg of Test Enanthate is present. 10.5 days later, 1000 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 500 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 250 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 175 mg is present (etc.) The PCT calculator does appear to be correct in its theoretical calulcations.
 
milwood

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Remember, half-life follows a logarithmic scale and not a linear scale. Example:
2000 mg of Test Enanthate is present. 10.5 days later, 1000 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 500 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 250 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 175 mg is present (etc.) The PCT calculator does appear to be correct in its theoretical calulcations.
..................mmmmmmmmmmm...................interesting!.............................
 

bulkmuscle

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I understand how the amount of esterfied hormone will build up in your body over time, but there will be a certain point where it will stop climbing, which using the equation I got from Skye, is around week 9-10 with test enanthate, figuring a 10.5 day half-life, so the absolute longest a shot of test enanthate could even be active would be 21 days, no matter if it was a 500mg shot or 2000mg shot, in 10.5 days half of the shot will be released and used up, then 10.5 days later the rest will be gone. I am sure there will still be some lingering around for awhile after that, but not enough to keep you suppressed 7 weeks later I doubt.

If someone with a better understanding of this subject could chime in and back me up, or prove me wrong, that would be great :D
I don't know what equation you are using but peak levels of esterified testosterone usually happen within 6 weeks. Just take a look from your cycle on the calculator, view the cycle from day 1 and you'll see the levels peak much earlier than your other calculator devised.

Anyways, a few of your questions are also answered in the FAQ on that page. Give it a read, its fairly short. :D
 
DR.D

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Remember, half-life follows a logarithmic scale and not a linear scale. Example:
2000 mg of Test Enanthate is present. 10.5 days later, 1000 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 500 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 250 mg is present. 10.5 days later, 175 mg is present (etc.) The PCT calculator does appear to be correct in its theoretical calulcations.
This is true, but in my experience x is always less than it should be. If you take a 1000mg shot of test e. on day 0, the value is shifted such than in 10.5 days only 400mg remains instead of the predicted 5. More is hydrolyzed initially and the calculation does not account for this phenomena. It is a matter of common experience because most fellas shoot more often than every 5 days with this ester.

It is absurd to leave a 40 day gap in between a cycle and PCT! Try to get your statistics down to baseline before starting pct, but if not, start anyway because the commonly used SERMs have a long t1/2 too and require time to accumulate if not loaded up front. This is why I always take a long, 2 month PCT. There's no way around it. Sometimes I even bridge with a low-suppression oral the few weeks for a smoother transition. ACT has changed that now. It will solve this issue permanently.
 

bulkmuscle

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This is true, but in my experience x is always less than it should be. If you take a 1000mg shot of test e. on day 0, the value is shifted such than in 10.5 days only 400mg remains instead of the predicted 5. More is hydrolyzed initially and the calculation does not account for this phenomena.
More is hydrolyzed initially? What are you basing this statement on?

It is a matter of common experience because most fellas shoot more often than every 5 days with this ester.
Most fellas do shoot more often than 5 days with enanthate. Why are you stating the obvious?

It is absurd to leave a 40 day gap in between a cycle and PCT!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. That is why you should not go cold turkey off long esters.
 
DR.D

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More is hydrolyzed initially? What are you basing this statement on?


Most fellas do shoot more often than 5 days with enanthate. Why are you stating the obvious?


I've said it before and I'll say it again. That is why you should not go cold turkey off long esters.
You kind of answered your own question. If more is not hydrolysed initially, then why shoot more often that every 5 days? Because in the real world, that calculation needs a special factor in it to account for this. It is good as a guideline though when planning doses for a cycle.
 

bulkmuscle

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You kind of answered your own question. If more is not hydrolysed initially, then why shoot more often that every 5 days?
You shoot more often than 5 days with enanthate so that your testosterone levels don't "seasaw" significantly and additionally to maintain a higher level of testosterone.
 
milwood

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Doc, are you in agreement with the idea that for long runs of test E, your PCT should indeed start up to 6 weeks after the last shot? If so, it seems like running something or some things (much shorter acting) for most or all of those weeks is advisable?
 
DR.D

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Doc, are you in agreement with the idea that for long runs of test E, your PCT should indeed start up to 6 weeks after the last shot? If so, it seems like running something or some things (much shorter acting) for most or all of those weeks is advisable?
No, I totally don't agree w/ 6wks. Unless you can plan it just right, then that's fine. And yes, you can cut your shots at 6wks, or whatever, and finish off with an oral, or switch to a shorter acting ester. But 2 or 3 wks tops if you don't wanna blow the cycle. Just do a longer PCT. I have never agreed that recovery is impossible unless the last mg of ester is gone from your system. I have successfully cheated and bridged too many PCTs to believe that and can tell you otherwise.
 

Nate Dawg

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I don't know what equation you are using but peak levels of esterified testosterone usually happen within 6 weeks. Just take a look from your cycle on the calculator, view the cycle from day 1 and you'll see the levels peak much earlier than your other calculator devised.

Anyways, a few of your questions are also answered in the FAQ on that page. Give it a read, its fairly short. :D
I gave the link to the calculator I was using bulk, did the link not show up? I did read the FAQ, and it really didnt answer any of my questions, if it would have, I probably wouldnt have asked them lol.

I agree with you on how it would be best to not stop cold turkey from long esters and run they cycle out a few more weeks with either an oral or a much shorter estered injectable.
 

bulkmuscle

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No, I totally don't agree w/ 6wks. Unless you can plan it just right, then that's fine. And yes, you can cut your shots at 6wks, or whatever, and finish off with an oral, or switch to a shorter acting ester. But 2 or 3 wks tops if you don't wanna blow the cycle. Just do a longer PCT. I have never agreed that recovery is impossible unless the last mg of ester is gone from your system. I have successfully cheated and bridged too many PCTs to believe that and can tell you otherwise.
I agree with the idea of not going off a long ester like that, but if you do, there is no point to PCT if you don't wait the proper time, as you will simply just get shutback down.
 

Nate Dawg

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You shoot more often than 5 days with enanthate so that your testosterone levels don't "seasaw" significantly and additionally to maintain a higher level of testosterone.
I am pretty sure DR.D already knew this ;) he even said first off that most guys shoot more often than every 5 days, which agreed with what you said, so I see no reason to argue that.

When he was explaining more is hydrolyzed initially than what the equations tend to figure, that explains why you would shoot test enan more often than every 5 days, yet you disagree with him stating that more is hydrolyzed than what the equation gives. If you agree with your equation being 100% correct, you should be able to get away with shooting every 5 days and keeping blood levels fairly stable with that dosing protocol since 5 days is about half of the 10.5 day halflife. So do you agree with your calculator or not? I am not trying to start any heated arguments, just want to figure out what exactly is right :D
 

bulkmuscle

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I gave the link to the calculator I was using bulk, did the link not show up? I did read the FAQ, and it really didnt answer any of my questions, if it would have, I probably wouldnt have asked them lol.

I agree with you on how it would be best to not stop cold turkey from long esters and run they cycle out a few more weeks with either an oral or a much shorter estered injectable.
Sorry, I didn't see the link :( Reading through it now :)
 

Nate Dawg

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Like I mentioned earlier, I have no idea which way is right or how to even set up an equation for something like a halflife from scratch...algebra was my downfall, if you guys cant tell lol ;)
 
kwyckemynd00

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No, I totally don't agree w/ 6wks. Unless you can plan it just right, then that's fine. And yes, you can cut your shots at 6wks, or whatever, and finish off with an oral, or switch to a shorter acting ester. But 2 or 3 wks tops if you don't wanna blow the cycle. Just do a longer PCT. I have never agreed that recovery is impossible unless the last mg of ester is gone from your system. I have successfully cheated and bridged too many PCTs to believe that and can tell you otherwise.
Would make sense that having exogenous test in your body would not hinder recovery b/c your body bases its shutdown on test production based on your natty levels, right? Therefore, if you've got a small amount of exogenous test left in the system--the body has no clue it's synthetic--so long as your test levels are within normal range, supression will no longer continue and recovery will be underway, right? Therefore, I'd assume even if you had like 100mg or so of Test E (etc) in your system, recovery would begin. A TRT dose of 100mg test/wk gives test levels around low-mid normal range, so I don't see any reason supression would take place (or at least not much supression) at that level.

I don't believe HPTA supression is not dose dependent, personally. I don't know why I read so many people who think that hormone--> body == shutdown, regardless of dose, when it seems evident dose plays a role.
 

bulkmuscle

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I am pretty sure DR.D already knew this ;) he even said first off that most guys shoot more often than every 5 days, which agreed with what you said, so I see no reason to argue that.

When he was explaining more is hydrolyzed initially than what the equations tend to figure, that explains why you would shoot test enan more often than every 5 days, yet you disagree with him stating that more is hydrolyzed than what the equation gives. If you agree with your equation being 100% correct, you should be able to get away with shooting every 5 days and keeping blood levels fairly stable with that dosing protocol since 5 days is about half of the 10.5 day halflife. So do you agree with your calculator or not? I am not trying to start any heated arguments, just want to figure out what exactly is right :D
I'm not trying to cause a ruckus either :D

He said that if you inject 1000mg of enanthate, in 10.5 days there will be 400mg of esterified enanthate left. Then he gave no reason for this "magical" disappearance of 100mg. I just wanted to know what his reason was. A half-life is a half-life. Nothing changes about it just because it is your first shot.

On the topic of the article you posted. I should probably note that the time to start PCT is all dependent on what your base testosterone level is. I used a baseline of ~550 ng/dl from one of the sources listed on the page. 100mg of esterified testosterone resulted in a negligible change from baseline levels. So if your levels are naturally much higher, then you'd want to start PCT sooner. And if you don't know your baseline, you're really taking a shot in the dark with when you start PCT.
 
kwyckemynd00

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I'm not trying to cause a ruckus either :D

He said that if you inject 1000mg of enanthate, in 10.5 days there will be 400mg of esterified enanthate left. Then he gave no reason for this "magical" disappearance of 100mg. I just wanted to know what his reason was. A half-life is a half-life. Nothing changes about it just because it is your first shot.
t1/2 is hte time it takes for "half" of the hormone to dissappear. Its not linear, either. I forgot the formula, but its definitely not a linear decay.
 

bulkmuscle

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t1/2 is hte time it takes for "half" of the hormone to dissappear. Its not linear, either. I forgot the formula, but its definitely not a linear decay.
I don't know what your t1/2 is suppose to mean. I didn't say it was linear either.
 

noctorum

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He didn't finish the equation..

Ke = Halflife
Ke = (LnCp(t2) - LnCp(t1)) / ( t1-t2)
 
DR.D

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I'm not trying to cause a ruckus either :D

He said that if you inject 1000mg of enanthate, in 10.5 days there will be 400mg of esterified enanthate left. Then he gave no reason for this "magical" disappearance of 100mg. I just wanted to know what his reason was. A half-life is a half-life. Nothing changes about it just because it is your first shot.
"Magical", OK, now you're starting to sound a bit derogatory. Please do not use fruity terms like that with me again. You can use whatever equation you like in your 'magical' world where the skies are purple and unicorns run free, I could really give a **** less.

Anyway, if you must know, the t1/2 is biphasic. So no, a half life is not a half live. Each metabolite of test has a different half live and the enzymes that cleave the ester are not steady. That's why more hydrolysis occurs initially. If it didn't, 1 shot ever 5 days would achieve steady state in just a few weeks. Plus, much of the hormone leaves the sight of deposit only to be sheltered in adipose tissue or converted into other esters of the bodies choosing. You are trying to make this black and white. It's not. Research the issue if you really want to know, I don't have the time to offer links or do it for you (because I already know), but please be respectful in the future. I was only trying to help elaborate on your equation when you decided to get shitty. I really don't take much ****.
 

size

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If you believe this is the best approach then I encourage you to wait 6 weeks before starting post cycle and see how you feel.
 
kwyckemynd00

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"Magical", OK, now you're starting to sound a bit derogatory. Please do not use fruity terms like that with me again. You can use whatever equation you like in your 'magical' world where the skies are purple and unicorns run free, I could really give a **** less.

Anyway, if you must know, the t1/2 is biphasic. So no, a half life is not a half live. Each metabolite of test has a different half live and the enzymes that cleave the ester are not steady. That's why more hydrolysis occurs initially. If it didn't, 1 shot ever 5 days would achieve steady state in just a few weeks. Plus, much of the hormone leaves the sight of deposit only to be sheltered in adipose tissue or converted into other esters of the bodies choosing. You are trying to make this black and white. It's not. Research the issue if you really want to know, I don't have the time to offer links or do it for you (because I already know), but please be respectful in the future. I was only trying to help elaborate on your equation when you decided to get shitty. I really don't take much ****.
:goodpost:
 

bulkmuscle

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t1/2 is the short-hand notation for spelling out "half life".....
Alright well I don't know why you were posting that then because no one was debating what a half-life was.

If you believe this is the best approach then I encourage you to wait 6 weeks before starting post cycle and see how you feel.
I don't stop cycles on long esters anymore so I would never be required to start that late.

Anyway, if you must know, the t1/2 is biphasic. So no, a half life is not a half live. Each metabolite of test has a different half live and the enzymes that cleave the ester are not steady.
No need to get all upset. I didn't intend to offend.

Anyways, when you say the half-life is biphasic, you are including the metabolite's half-life, correct? Cause I am only taking into account the ester's half-life which is not biphasic. I could not find any literature stating that testosterone esters were biphasic.

Assuming THEY were biphasic, you must have some source that you used to calculate that 100mg "disappearance" claim.

Plus, much of the hormone leaves the sight of deposit only to be sheltered in adipose tissue or converted into other esters of the bodies choosing. You are trying to make this black and white. It's not.
The majority of exogenous testosterone migrates to fatty tissue? Maybe if you're injecting into it...otherwise it resides in the muscle tissue until its picked up by the blood.

I'm not trying to make it exactly black & white, but close enough to generate a proper PCT start time. Most of the other variables are negligible, unless of course the significant differences you claim can be substantiated with some literature. (Come on, you must have at least one journal article)

Research the issue if you really want to know, I don't have the time to offer links or do it for you (because I already know), but please be respectful in the future. I was only trying to help elaborate on your equation when you decided to get shitty. I really don't take much ****.
I have attempted to research your claims and I've come up with nothing. Perhaps you can provide me with a couple journal articles that I can read? I have no problem agreeing with you or admitting I am wrong, but when I can't come up with anything to back up your claims, bells are ringing. :D
 
kwyckemynd00

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Alright well I don't know why you were posting that then because no one was debating what a half-life was.
Okay genius....I referenced half life with the notation "t1/2" in a sentence. You asked what t1/2 meant!!!!! So, I said t1/2 = half life.

Geezus....I think we have a newest "most dense" material on our hands....and its surrounding someones cranal cavity.
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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I don't know what your t1/2 is suppose to mean. I didn't say it was linear either.
See! ^^

I brought up half life (t1/2) b/c of the way you referenced doc's numbers. You were speaking of a "half life" and disappearing 100mg, etc. Nevermind...you wouldn't get it mr. e-ducated.
 

bulkmuscle

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Okay genius....I referenced half life with the notation "t1/2" in a sentence. You asked what t1/2 meant!!!!! So, I said t1/2 = half life.

Geezus....I think we have a newest "most dense" material on our hands....and its surrounding someones cranal cavity.
Um no you gave the definition of a half-life which was already clear to everyone. I simply asked about the abbreivation which I'd not seen before.

See here:

t1/2 is hte time it takes for "half" of the hormone to dissappear.
Captain Obvious strikes again.

Now do you see what I said what I said?
 
DR.D

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Okay genius....I referenced half life with the notation "t1/2" in a sentence. You asked what t1/2 meant!!!!! So, I said t1/2 = half life.

Geezus....I think we have a newest "most dense" material on our hands....and its surrounding someones cranal cavity.
Kwycke,
Don't even bother bro! Let this punk figure it out the hard way. Some folks just have to learn for themselves that the equations don't add up. Years of mistakes, confusion, and trial and error will humble him. :rolleyes: (haha, kind of reminds me of someone I once knew, but I was always much more interested in finding the real truth rather than 'being right')
 
kwyckemynd00

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Captain Obvious strikes again.

Now do you see what I said what I said?
YOu were implying a linear relationship...therefore 1/2lift = 2x1/4 life in your little brain when that is not the case.

Its okay...I'm sure the gods take pity on the stupid...afterall, their fuckup.
 

bulkmuscle

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I'm a punk because I asked you for some articles to back up your claims? Mmmk. You're looking quite incredible here. Hopefully people reading this will realize that.

I've spent the last couple hours attempting to research your claims and I've come up with nothing. I've no problem continuing the debate, but you seem to lack the time to provide a simple journal article to substantiate your claims. Do you think your time is better spent insulting me than backing up the things you say?
 
kwyckemynd00

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What you dont get is you asking Dr.D to backup his claims is like asking Steven Hawkings to prove a basic physics principle.

He's earned the right not to have to "prove himself" to someone like you. Read up, bulkego.

edit: If he were to be in development of a new theory regarding rate of decay of testosterone, maybe we'd ask him to back up his beliefs ;)
 
kwyckemynd00

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not going to read the thread, but Kwycke and Dr. D usually right.
whoever is arguing with them is probably wrong and a fool
No...Dr.D is usually right...I need to get smacked around from time to time :lol:
 

bulkmuscle

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YOu were implying a linear relationship...therefore 1/2lift = 2x1/4 life in your little brain when that is not the case.

Its okay...I'm sure the gods take pity on the stupid...afterall, their fuckup.
I never implied a linear relationship.

What you dont get is you asking Dr.D to backup his claims is like asking Steven Hawkings to prove a basic physics principle.

He's earned the right not to have to "prove himself" to someone like you. Read up, bulkego.
This isn't simple biochemistry so it isn't common knowledge. If it was, I would have no problem backing up his claims by researching it.

I have no ego problems. I've already mentioned numerous times I've no problem admitting I'm wrong about something.

not going to read the thread, but Kwycke and Dr. D usually right.
whoever is arguing with them is probably wrong and a fool
Thanks for adding something constructive to the discussion!
 
kwyckemynd00

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You're getting a pass b/c you don't know Dr.D well :D

You "implied" a linear relationship when you said there was 100mg missing of test (he said 400mg remaining, about) when after 10.5 days of 1000mg of Test Enan. If you explain your rationale behind that statement, maybe I"ll believe you weren't implying a linear rate of decay.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you....but, that's how you came off...
 

bulkmuscle

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Okay well 1000mg enanthate injected right? After 10.5 days there will be half remaining, 500mg. Hence the half-life of 10.5 days :D

But he said there would only be 400mg, and that an additional 100mg would have been hydrolyzed or something a rather.
 
CEDeoudes59

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Thanks for adding something constructive to the discussion!
sorry... consider it comic relief, I haven't even read the thread. It's been a long lousy day. forgive my comment - I didn't even know who the argument was between.

...and away we go :(
 

size

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Everyone needs to stop being rude to one another. Discuss as long as you like but cease with the negativity.
 

Matthew D

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No joke about the quitting being rude... I would really look bad for three people to get banned due to their inability to be civil to each other.. I did take time to edit one post that seemed to be the one that started the rude comments..
 
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