Has anyone tried Arimidex + HCG for PCT

gannicus419

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Has anyone done a PCT comprised of only arimidex (aka Anastrozole) and HCG for about 6 weeks.
PCT
Arimidex (.5mg every other day)
HCG (500iu every other day)
(Week 7 possible taper. no HCG. Just. . 25mg Arimidex E3D)
---Please read everything before responding guys. Thx.---

My "steroid" doc said he puts people on this PCT after steroid cycles.
I finished a test cyp cycle 500mg per week for 12 weeks.(I used HCG and adex)
(If your going to say HCG isn't for PCT, please save it it.)

What confused me is using arimidex instead of Nolvadex.
My doc swears by it and says it actually works better than Nolvadex.
--Explanation-Nolvadex does not lower systemic estrogen.. only blocks the binding sites (@breasts). And that there is not sufficient research showing Nolvadex restarts the HTPA much faster, it mainly helps with gyno)
---Arimidex lowers total estrogen causing the body to produce more LH and testosterone. Helps reset HTPA
Each shot, The HCG acts as quick "jolt" waking up your testes, but it does not decrease sensitization at 500iu EOD. It helps your body increases your testosterone and estrogen levels. And overall your testes will come back faster and the adex will control the estrogen. (HTPA comes back quick, testes can long a while)
Anyway. I hope to get some type of info from someone who has tried this before. Or heard of it.
I already know about proper Clomid, Nolvadex, and HCG Protocols. So please don't try to hate on this unless you have heard of it or tried it.
Thanks!
 
warbird01

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I mean if a doctor who knows his **** is saying it works and has used it on patients (who he has bloodwork on) then I would trust him over some random dude on here who PCTs and doesn't get bloodwork lol
 

CatSnake

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Has anyone done a PCT comprised of only arimidex (aka Anastrozole) and HCG for about 6 weeks.
PCT
Arimidex (.5mg every other day)
HCG (500iu every other day)
(Week 7 possible taper. no HCG. Just. . 25mg Arimidex E3D)
---Please read everything before responding guys. Thx.---

My "steroid" doc said he puts people on this PCT after steroid cycles.
I finished a test cyp cycle 500mg per week for 12 weeks.(I used HCG and adex)
(If your going to say HCG isn't for PCT, please save it it.)

What confused me is using arimidex instead of Nolvadex.
My doc swears by it and says it actually works better than Nolvadex.
--Explanation-Nolvadex does not lower systemic estrogen.. only blocks the binding sites (@breasts). And that there is not sufficient research showing Nolvadex restarts the HTPA much faster, it mainly helps with gyno)
---Arimidex lowers total estrogen causing the body to produce more LH and testosterone. Helps reset HTPA
Each shot, The HCG acts as quick "jolt" waking up your testes, but it does not decrease sensitization at 500iu EOD. It helps your body increases your testosterone and estrogen levels. And overall your testes will come back faster and the adex will control the estrogen. (HTPA comes back quick, testes can long a while)
Anyway. I hope to get some type of info from someone who has tried this before. Or heard of it.
I already know about proper Clomid, Nolvadex, and HCG Protocols. So please don't try to hate on this unless you have heard of it or tried it.
Thanks!
it's better than nothing, I guess.

the problem is, HCG simply mimics LH.... it doesn't force your body to produce LH and FSH.

if he's going to suggest this protocol, then I would assume that he would only recommend HCG until the androgen esters have cleared from your body, and you're ready to produce testosterone on your own. taking HCG any longer than this simply holds back your hypothalamus and pituitary from kicking in.

personally, I think it's worth it to taper your AI into PCT, but crashing your E2 at the end of the cycle sucks. and not just feeling like crap.... it's unhealthy. while lowering total E2 could help you recover if it was actually high, if it was normal (or low), it would be pointless to lower it anymore.

AI's are pretty good at increasing testosterone, but I haven't seen much data that shows them competing with clomid with actual effectiveness in raising testosterone, LH and FSH consistently.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288969-info-ais.html

^feel free to compare the data
 
gannicus419

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So here is where it gets tricky. HCG and Arimidex for 6 weeks. Not just until the steroid esters cleared from the body, like you said. His reasoning is
LH turns back on very quickly(without help from any outside source.)
The E2 won't be crashed, it will remain at a low / normal. since HCG is also being used.
HCG isn't going to stunt your natural test production. Instead it's increasing the size of the testes. It is increasing the effectiveness of the testes to be able to respond once natural LH is being produced. Again the amount of HCG 500iu eod isn't enough to cause desensitization.
I'll try to post a chart showing rebound of LH and testosterone in a study of males. After a test cycle. (No pct)
IMG_6563.jpg

At week 9 LH is almost fully recovered, while test is still only beginning to start to turn around.
 

CatSnake

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So here is where it gets tricky. HCG and Arimidex for 6 weeks. Not just until the steroid esters cleared from the body, like you said. His reasoning is
LH turns back on very quickly(without help from any outside source.)
The E2 won't be crashed, it will remain at a low / normal. since HCG is also being used.
HCG isn't going to stunt your natural test production. Instead it's increasing the size of the testes. It is increasing the effectiveness of the testes to be able to respond once natural LH is being produced. Again the amount of HCG 500iu eod isn't enough to cause desensitization.
I'll try to post a chart showing rebound of LH and testosterone in a study of males. After a test cycle. (No pct)View attachment 152370
At week 9 LH is almost fully recovered, while test is still only beginning to start to turn around.
uhm, okay.

so you want to suppress LH levels for longer and expect to recover? sometimes the hypothalamus or the pituitary don't bounce back, and GnRH/LH don't come back right away. you're making an assumption that LH will come back right away, for no reason whatsoever.

***because if you use HCG to artificially raise testosterone levels, there's no signal requiring GnRH or LH to kick back in, right? ***

If LH (or in this case: HCG) levels are high, and testosterone levels are high, then there is no reason for GnRH to kick in, which is the first step in the HPTA. they will both signal a negative feedback mechanism to the body not to produce GnRH.

to be clear: GnRH>LH/FSH>testosterone.
 

CatSnake

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uhm, okay.

so you want to suppress LH levels for longer and expect to recover? sometimes the hypothalamus or the pituitary don't bounce back, and GnRH/LH don't come back right away. you're making an assumption that LH will come back right away, for no reason whatsoever.

***because if you use HCG to artificially raise testosterone levels, there's no signal requiring GnRH or LH to kick back in, right? ***

If LH (or in this case: HCG) levels are high, and testosterone levels are high, then there is no reason for GnRH to kick in, which is the first step in the HPTA. they will both signal a negative feedback mechanism to the body not to produce GnRH.

to be clear: GnRH>LH/FSH>testosterone.
View attachment 152371
 
gannicus419

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Yeah I think the assumption /reasoning is. HCG will not shut down LH or Test... (not at 500ui eod ) it will slightly suppress LH, while helping the body/testes recover from test shutdown.
Since LH is only being suppressed. It would not have a far distance to bounce back to. And it would happen quickly. Especially with the body seeing a decreased estrogen, therefore, tries to raise it by pumping out more LH-> test/estrogen
.....PCT overall getting the testosterone production up and running again being ready to accept the signal to produce the correct amount.
Again I'm not advocating this.
It's a method which my doc says he has huge success with. But it is against everything I've learned. So I'm just curious to see if anyone else has heard or tried :)
 

CatSnake

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Yeah I think the assumption /reasoning is. HCG will not shut down LH or Test... (not at 500ui eod ) it will slightly suppress LH, while helping the body/testes recover from test shutdown.
Since LH is only being suppressed. It would not have a far distance to bounce back to. And it would happen quickly. Especially with the body seeing a decreased estrogen, therefore, tries to raise it by pumping out more LH-> test/estrogen
.....PCT overall getting the testosterone production up and running again being ready to accept the signal to produce the correct amount.
Again I'm not advocating this.
It's a method which my doc says he has huge success with. But it is against everything I've learned. So I'm just curious to see if anyone else has heard or tried :)
yeah, your "doc" is missing the first step in the HPTA.

I can't keep arguing this, as it's pretty clear how flawed the logic is...

HPTA.jpg
 
gannicus419

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I understand that feedback loop. The picture is missing how estrogen plays its part.
Anyway. Thanks for the info. If anyone else has info regarding actually trying this, or heard of someone trying it. Instead of the theory of it (which I understand)
It would be greatly appreciated
 

CatSnake

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I understand that feedback loop. The picture is missing how estrogen plays its part.
Anyway. Thanks for the info. If anyone else has info regarding actually trying this, or heard of someone trying it. Instead of the theory of it (which I understand)
It would be greatly appreciated
you clearly don't understand the theory, since you don't understand the role GnRH plays in the HPTA.
 
gannicus419

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Sorry if I left this piece of info out. LH is not simply, just a sole hormone that jumps back quickly by itself.. The body's ability to recover LH production implies it is receiving and producing the correct hormones and amount to make that happen.
Again. Look at my chart, showing how quickly LH (therefore hypothalamus-GnRH-pituitary-LH) comes back.
Where as the body takes forever to respond correctly to the recovered LH signal. The testosterone production took long time to recover. Which is what I think the doc is focusing on.
I hope that makes sense.
 

CatSnake

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Sorry if I left this piece of info out. LH is not simply, just a sole hormone that jumps back quickly by itself.. The body's ability to recover LH production implies it is receiving and producing the correct hormones and amount to make that happen.
Again. Look at my chart, showing how quickly LH (therefore hypothalamus-GnRH-pituitary-LH) comes back.
Where as the body takes forever to respond correctly to the recovered LH signal. The testosterone production took long time to recover. Which is what I think the doc is focusing on.
I hope that makes sense.
no, it doesn't make sense.

you can't suppress production of LH by taking HCG and expect the HPTA to work right....

additionally, you still have multiple negative feedback signals from testosterone to the hypothalamus and pituitary.

the hypothalamus is not going to increase LH/FSH production in this scenario.


to be clear, you do understand that HCG suppresses LH production, right?
 
gannicus419

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Yes...as I stated earlier, HCG will suppress LH but will not completely shut down the production of it.
We are not looking to bring the hypothalamus or pituitary back with HCG.
The hypothalamus and pituitary will regulate itself quickly after cessation of HCG. (Which causes a suppression)
We are trying to get the body used to accepting the signal of LH again.. and producing the testosterone again.
Once again hypothalamus and pituitary are online yet the testosterone production is not.
Which is where the HCG comes into play.
You realize when on cycle. LH is almost non existent. Then the receptors for it begin to disappear.
And even when the body produces the proper signal. They are unable to respond appropriately.
 

CatSnake

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Yes...as I stated earlier, HCG will suppress LH but will not completely shut down the production of it.
We are not looking to bring the hypothalamus or pituitary back with HCG.
The hypothalamus and pituitary will regulate itself quickly after cessation of HCG. (Which causes a suppression)
We are trying to get the body used to accepting the signal of LH again.. and producing the testosterone again.
Once again hypothalamus and pituitary are online yet the testosterone production is not.
Which is where the HCG comes into play.
You realize when on cycle. LH is almost non existent. Then the receptors for it begin to disappear.
And even when the body produces the proper signal. They are unable to respond appropriately.
yes, on cycle LH signal is low. hence the reason people use HCG on cycle.

if you finish a cycle but don't allow the body to recover but immediately use HCG, you will not produce LH. there is simply no reason for the body to do so. so in all likelihood, there is no production of LH at this point, since there is no signal being sent to produce GnRH, right?

all this theory does is kick the can down the road and hope that one recovers post cycle....
 
gannicus419

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Ugh. No....
there is a big difference between suppression and shut down.
Can HCG cause major suppression at high amounts maybe even shutdown? Of course...Especially with guys taking 2000, 5000ui, or more per day..
We are talking about 500ui. Spaced out EOD. LH will be suppressed During this time
But he doesn't care about the little suppression of the hypothalamus or pituitary because it comes back so fast. As it has shown to do time and time again.
Look... I'm not trying to argue his point. Im just trying to properly explain it. And figure out if I can find/talk to anyone who has actually tried it before.
 
gannicus419

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Why do you think your body will produce LH after cycle-
---because of the feedback loop. Check out the study/graph I posted showing the production of LH after just 1 week after cycle. (With no PCT)
So why do I think it will produce? Simply because that's how the body will respond after HCG is over.

"Then you are going to start taking HCG, which will Prevent LH from being produced correct?"
-- no, it won't prevent it, but yes the natural production will be lower.

Lowered by How much? I dunno.
It seems he doesn't focus on the production of it. Because it turns back on so quickly by itself.
So once the PCT/HCG/Adex is over. The body will quickly normalize the LH production on its own. And the body will then be ready to properly respond.
Sound crazy?
 

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Why do you think your body will produce LH after cycle-
---because of the feedback loop. Check out the study/graph I posted showing the production of LH after just 1 week after cycle. (With no PCT)
So why do I think it will produce? Simply because that's how the body will respond after HCG is over.

"Then you are going to start taking HCG, which will Prevent LH from being produced correct?"
-- no, it won't prevent it, but yes the natural production will be lower.

Lowered by How much? I dunno.
It seems he doesn't focus on the production of it. Because it turns back on so quickly by itself.
So once the PCT/HCG/Adex is over. The body will quickly normalize the LH production on its own. And the body will then be ready to properly respond.
Sound crazy?
dude, if you look at that graph, it shows how long it takes to produce LH with no intervention. you're talking about taking HCG immediately, which is going to further suppress LH. you are simply not going to be producing LH at this point.

the only reason that the body will increase LH production, is when GnRH is sent to the pituitary. if your testosterone levels are normal(ish) from the HCG, then that's not gonna happen. if there's circulating HCG in the body, then LH is not going to be produced.

so you're gonna have a lag time where your testosterone production dips while you wait for the HCG to clear the body and you're waiting on your own GnRH/LH production to catch up.

you have yet to indicate any logical reason as to why this will work. The "doc" has a flawed theory.
 
gannicus419

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Yes. Which is why it was so interesting to me.
He isn't just a normal doc with a theory.
This is his speciality.
Helps competitors. And was a bodybuilder himself.
He swears by it. Has said it works even better than Nolvadex + HCG in his clinical experience.
Why? No clue.
But I havnt seen this "theory" or "Pct" before.... not anywhere in forums.
Which is why I am reaching out to try to see if anyone has TRIED this and had a great recovery.
 
gannicus419

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I guess I'll just have to try it( I got my Nolvadex on hand)
 

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Yes. Which is why it was so interesting to me.
He isn't just a normal doc with a theory.
This is his speciality.
Helps competitors. And was a bodybuilder himself.
He swears by it. Has said it works even better than Nolvadex + HCG in his clinical experience.
Why? No clue.
But I havnt seen this "theory" or "Pct" before.... not anywhere in forums.
Which is why I am reaching out to try to see if anyone has TRIED this and had a great recovery.
here's the thing: does it makes sense to you?

it doesn't make sense to me.

part of the reason why clomid works so well (check out the SERM link I posted), is because it's a direct antagonist to the ER in the hypothalamus. it's able to increase GnRH production to the pituitary without lowering systemic E2, which allows you to still gain some of the growth effects of estrogen.

as far as claiming this is a PCT used by competitors.... well, most real competitors don't do PCT. and if they do, it's simply a brief period off before their next cycle.
 
gannicus419

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If it made perfect sense to me, I wouldn't be on here asking about it lol.
I agree that top level bodybuilders are mostly on cycle almost year round.
While some take time off/ need help recovering afterwards.
I doubt he would lie or exaggerate about that.. He has a very successful practice. But who knows I guess.
 
gannicus419

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Here is my blood work 6 weeks after pct of only using anastrozole and HCG
IMG_7072.jpg


Guess the doc knew what he was talking about
 

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Here is my blood work 6 weeks after pct of only using anastrozole and HCG
View attachment 156502

Guess the doc knew what he was talking about
what was your bloodwork before?

btw, anastrozole, as I referred to earlier, has been pretty well documented in raising testosterone, LH, etc....
 
gannicus419

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Yeah. Here I'll post my pre blood work one sec
 
gannicus419

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what was your bloodwork before?

btw, anastrozole, as I referred to earlier, has been pretty well documented in raising testosterone, LH, etc....
Here is pre bloodwork. yup we know what anastrozole could do while on the drug during pct. But my post bloodwork is weeks post pct.
I thought it would be great to show that this Pct does work. Even though people lost their minds that I even considered it. (On all forums)
But Even tho you argued with me about that this PCT doesn't make any sense.
(Read your previous replies)
Here's proof. Btw I can't tell you why it's so damn effective. But it worked.
Btw gained 20lbs. Held onto majority of strength, lost 3lbs. But have been maintaining the weight. Overall. Big success. Anytime I do another cycle in the future I'll post blood work for u guys. Cheers
IMG_7074.jpg
IMG_7075.jpg
 

CatSnake

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do you have FSH levels from before? that is still oddly low.... honestly, prolly from the HCG use.

so the PCT kinda works.... your T levels are obviously back up, but everything is not back to where it should be, unless you naturally have low FSH levels.

like I said before, the AI can do what your PCT did. or a regular SERM protocol. if you want to do something like this though, you certainly can.... it's just a bit more complicated and expensive than the norm. and it appears to be a negative for the FSH recovery.
 
gannicus419

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Sadly I don't have LH/FSH blood work pre cycle. Lh/fsh are currently On the low end. But I do think hormones are still balancing a but. Either way, my hormones have seemed to respond well to the current LH/fsh output. So maybe for my body it's more on the normal side.
 
gannicus419

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Lh level is definitely good. I'll test fsh again in a few weeks.
 

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If you used hcg in your pct.. your hcg is bunk.. hcg is supressive and you are not going to recover on it, this is basic endo feedback loops
 
gannicus419

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I used HCG during my PCT. Prescribed by a doctor. It's 100% legit. As you can see from the bloodwork I did recover from it. The post bloodwork is not while I was on PCT. If it was then yes lh and fsh would be much lower. Because HCG does suppress while on it.
 

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Lh level is definitely good. I'll test fsh again in a few weeks.
I'm curious to see what that will be.... have you ever had it tested before?

FWIW, a regular SERM PCT will prolly raise your FSH along with LH. if you have concerns about fertility, then that could be a big deal...
 
gannicus419

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I'll keep you guys updated.
I do have other bloodwork I can post. But I doubt you guys would be interested. Bloodwork during cycle. Just shows test >1500, free test >60, and e2 at 15.
My doc will prescribe whatever bloodwork I want to be done. So if u have any questions or curiosities I'll add it to my next panel which I'll get in about 1-1.5 months. (Unlike many other posters, Who forget or disappear, ill make sure to update whoever is interested as much as possible) cheers
 

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I'll keep you guys updated.
I do have other bloodwork I can post. But I doubt you guys would be interested. Bloodwork during cycle. Just shows test >1500, free test >60, and e2 at 15.
My doc will prescribe whatever bloodwork I want to be done. So if u have any questions or curiosities I'll add it to my next panel which I'll get in about 1-1.5 months. (Unlike many other posters, Who forget or disappear, ill make sure to update whoever is interested as much as possible) cheers
I'm down with it.

out of curiosity, why did you choose this PCT instead of a regular SERM PCT?
 
gannicus419

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I had the regular SERM Pct on hand. So that at anytime i could switch to it if need be.
The only reason I chose it was because my doctor was so adamant about it. From his own personal use and his experience with athletes. This PCT protocol seems to work "better than SERMS" that "SERMS are old school, now days there are better more effective alternatives" that people haven't become aware of or accepted yet.
Which I found hard to believe. But I trusted him enough to try it. My test levels came back strong in mid 600's Where as normally test will be around 400 post Pct (SERM protocol) for a little while longer.
I also talked to John meadow's team. Who said the PCT was fine. But they do use a different protocol for their athletes.
Sorry for the long response. But I hope it answered your question!
 

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Random thought: did your Doc administer the HCG or did he allow you to do it on your own?

I've seen a similar PCT proposed by a doc on another thread, and was thinking about the cost of the various PCT's.

personally, I've never done the HCG/A-dex version, so I can't comment on the effectiveness for me. However, I have used clomid (25 mg/day) several times and have used it to get my testosterone levels from the high 200's to the mid 800's.

Anyway, the cost between pharm grade clomid and pharm grade A-dex/HCG is pretty significant..... maybe 1/3 of the price? if we're talking "research chemicals," then I suspect it would be more like 1/5 of the price, since I can only get HCG as a pharm product. I guess needles would technically pump the total up a bit more, too.

^so I guess my point there, is the cost effectiveness.... just something to think about, I guess.
 
gannicus419

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I administered everything at home. Had to prepare the HCG as well. Very careful. Proper storage, no shaking. 1 month of TrT, HCG, and adex. Cost me total about $75. It's Extremely cheap.
 

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I administered everything at home. Had to prepare the HCG as well. Very careful. Proper storage, no shaking. 1 month of TrT, HCG, and adex. Cost me total about $75. It's Extremely cheap.
so, are you on TRT now? I guess I'm confused about doing PCT then...
 
gannicus419

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"Someone who isn't me. May or may not get pharma grade testosterone to do cycles under the name of Trt.
 

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"Someone who isn't me. May or may not get pharma grade testosterone to do cycles under the name of Trt.
LOL... right on.

thanks for the info. I just started TRT, so it's interesting that my out of pocket expenses there are much cheaper than I thought they would be...
 

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Random thought: did your Doc administer the HCG or did he allow you to do it on your own?

I've seen a similar PCT proposed by a doc on another thread, and was thinking about the cost of the various PCT's.

personally, I've never done the HCG/A-dex version, so I can't comment on the effectiveness for me. However, I have used clomid (25 mg/day) several times and have used it to get my testosterone levels from the high 200's to the mid 800's.

Anyway, the cost between pharm grade clomid and pharm grade A-dex/HCG is pretty significant..... maybe 1/3 of the price? if we're talking "research chemicals," then I suspect it would be more like 1/5 of the price, since I can only get HCG as a pharm product. I guess needles would technically pump the total up a bit more, too.

^so I guess my point there, is the cost effectiveness.... just something to think about, I guess.

Do you have any update on this protocol ? how many more times since 2017 have you done this?

Im starting it tomorrow to try for myself, i HATE clomid. is 0.25mg arimidex to low and is 0.5mg needed? will try 1000mg hcg eod with 0.25mg aimidex
 

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Do you have any update on this protocol ? how many more times since 2017 have you done this?

Im starting it tomorrow to try for myself, i HATE clomid. is 0.25mg arimidex to low and is 0.5mg needed? will try 1000mg hcg eod with 0.25mg aimidex
Why dont you try tamoxifen?

Btw i wouldnt use hcg alongside serm use it before.
 

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