Rebirth by Black Lion Research

[UncleSarm]

Can anyone weigh in on how effective Rebirth is compared to Nolva in PCT and whether you would recommend it over Nolva?

A paper was published in 2013 titled "Comparison of tamoxifen with edible seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) extract in suppressing breast tumor."
In the abstract it says (bold added by me):
The tropical edible red seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) is rich in nutrients and polyphenolic compounds that may suppress cancer through its antioxidant and antiproliferative properties. The study reports on rat mammary tumor suppression and tissue antioxidant status modulation by E. cottonii ethanol extract (ECE). The effect of orally administered ECE (100 mg/kg body-weight) was compared with that of tamoxifen (10 mg/kg body-weight). Rat was induced to develop mammary tumor with subcutaneous injection of LA-7 cells (6 × 10(6) cells/rat). The ECE was more effective than tamoxifen in suppressing tumor growth (27%), improving tissues (plasma, liver, and kidney) malondialdehyde concentrations, superoxide dismutase activity and erythrocyte glutathione concentrations (P < 0.05). Unlike tamoxifen, the ECE displayed little toxicity to the liver and kidneys. The ECE exhibited strong anticancer effect with enzyme modulating properties, suggesting its potential as a suppressing agent for mammary gland tumor.

The amount of ECE was 10x Nolva, but easier on the liver and kidneys. This would seem to suggest that a Nolva 20/20/10/10 ED PCT could be replaced with ECE 200/200/100/100 ED PCT with better results.

 

[NattyBoy]

Can anyone weigh in on how effective Rebirth is compared to Nolva in PCT and whether you would recommend it over Nolva?

A paper was published in 2013 titled "Comparison of tamoxifen with edible seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) extract in suppressing breast tumor."
In the abstract it says (bold added by me):
The tropical edible red seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) is rich in nutrients and polyphenolic compounds that may suppress cancer through its antioxidant and antiproliferative properties. The study reports on rat mammary tumor suppression and tissue antioxidant status modulation by E. cottonii ethanol extract (ECE). The effect of orally administered ECE (100 mg/kg body-weight) was compared with that of tamoxifen (10 mg/kg body-weight). Rat was induced to develop mammary tumor with subcutaneous injection of LA-7 cells (6 × 10(6) cells/rat). The ECE was more effective than tamoxifen in suppressing tumor growth (27%), improving tissues (plasma, liver, and kidney) malondialdehyde concentrations, superoxide dismutase activity and erythrocyte glutathione concentrations (P < 0.05). Unlike tamoxifen, the ECE displayed little toxicity to the liver and kidneys. The ECE exhibited strong anticancer effect with enzyme modulating properties, suggesting its potential as a suppressing agent for mammary gland tumor.

The amount of ECE was 10x Nolva, but easier on the liver and kidneys. This would seem to suggest that a Nolva 20/20/10/10 ED PCT could be replaced with ECE 200/200/100/100 ED PCT with better results.

I don't believe it, but if you run it, I'd still run it with a serm and play it safe.

 

[BlockBuilder]

Can anyone weigh in on how effective Rebirth is compared to Nolva in PCT and whether you would recommend it over Nolva?

A paper was published in 2013 titled "Comparison of tamoxifen with edible seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) extract in suppressing breast tumor."
In the abstract it says (bold added by me):
The tropical edible red seaweed (Eucheuma cottonii L.) is rich in nutrients and polyphenolic compounds that may suppress cancer through its antioxidant and antiproliferative properties. The study reports on rat mammary tumor suppression and tissue antioxidant status modulation by E. cottonii ethanol extract (ECE). The effect of orally administered ECE (100 mg/kg body-weight) was compared with that of tamoxifen (10 mg/kg body-weight). Rat was induced to develop mammary tumor with subcutaneous injection of LA-7 cells (6 × 10(6) cells/rat). The ECE was more effective than tamoxifen in suppressing tumor growth (27%), improving tissues (plasma, liver, and kidney) malondialdehyde concentrations, superoxide dismutase activity and erythrocyte glutathione concentrations (P < 0.05). Unlike tamoxifen, the ECE displayed little toxicity to the liver and kidneys. The ECE exhibited strong anticancer effect with enzyme modulating properties, suggesting its potential as a suppressing agent for mammary gland tumor.

The amount of ECE was 10x Nolva, but easier on the liver and kidneys. This would seem to suggest that a Nolva 20/20/10/10 ED PCT could be replaced with ECE 200/200/100/100 ED PCT with better results.

Well there has been some blood work showing it works hoping to see more. Still relatively new. If you go that route at least have a SERM on hand just in case

 

[BEAST73]

I ran Anabolic Trinity for 8 weeks,and now I am on day 26 into my PCT using Rebirth.. I have not lost any Gains nor Strength and I feel Great..

 

[UncleSarm]

Well there has been some blood work showing it works hoping to see more. Still relatively new. If you go that route at least have a SERM on hand just in case

Ah, so there is some empirical evidence beyond a single study done who knows where.

It's interesting to see the answers ranging the entire spectrum from "only with a SERM" to "currently running it". Of course, running it with a SERM means that there is no conclusive proof. We know the SERM works, so even if the PCT is exceptionally smooth, it could just be due to how the individual responds to Nolva/Clomid. The flip side of that coin is that if someone did a successful PCT with Rebirth, it could just be due to how the individual responds to it.

So pretty much this comes down to having enough people trying it and showing that it is or isn't (whichever the case may be) a effective alternative. Which makes it also interesting that most of us are willing to risk taking new and unknown compounds in a cycle, but not in PCT. Of course, PCT is where you want to get your nuts jumpstarted and up and working again, however that would not be of much use if the compound used in the cycle made your nuts fall off to begin with.

 

[UncleSarm]

I ran Anabolic Trinity for 8 weeks,and now I am on day 26 into my PCT using Rebirth.. I have not lost any Gains nor Strength and I feel Great..

Anabolic Trinity is Osta at 25mg, Epiandro, and Laxogenin. I am currently running a 6 week cycle of Osta at 25mg ED, so I would be very interested in how your PCT works out. Are you running it at 4 weeks or longer? Also, are you planning on getting bloods done at the end, or if you feel good you will simply call it done?

 

[BEAST73]

I am running my PCT for 6 weeks,and no blood work.. IMO Rebirth is really good for a mild cycle,any thing stronger a SERM need to be added..

 

[UncleSarm]

I am running my PCT for 6 weeks,and no blood work.. IMO Rebirth is really good for a mild cycle,any thing stronger a SERM need to be added..

Are you using anything else in your PCT other than Rebirth?

 

[BEAST73]

Are you using anything else in your PCT other than Rebirth?

Rebirth and SUP3R PCT.

 

[UncleSarm]

Any Black Lion Research (BLR) reps that would be interested in exchanging a free bottle of Rebirth for logging before-PCT and after-PCT bloods?

According to the study above, it should be as good as or better than Tamox/Nolva. So if my after-cycle-pre-PCT bloods come back as not too bad, I am willing to experiment with an OTC-only PCT, with just Rebirth.
Nolva would be three weeks at 20/10/10 and the study showed that the E. Cottonii was administered at about 10x the Nolva dose, so it would be 200/100/100. Rebirth has a little higher than that, but I can always either split the amounts or go eod. I was also thinking Sup3rPCT, but it has a lot of compounds in it, so hard to say what worked and what didn't, while in Rebirth it is only one of two ingredients. Personally I am curious about the E. Cottonii itself.

For completeness, I am currently on a 25mg ED Osta cycle (logged on this forum).

 

[T-Bone]

You could run it with an actual SERM. However I wouldn't run it in place of one.

 

[T-Bone]

Can anyone weigh in on how effective Rebirth is compared to Nolva in PCT and whether you would recommend it over Nolva?



The amount of ECE was 10x Nolva, but easier on the liver and kidneys. This would seem to suggest that a Nolva 20/20/10/10 ED PCT could be replaced with ECE 200/200/100/100 ED PCT with better results.

What? Why?. The only thing that that ABSTRACT possible proves is that ECE has little toxic effects to the kidney and liver. This abstract or study has absolutely nothing to do with PCT.

 

[UncleSarm]

This is speculative at the moment, very much dependent on post cycle bloods. If they come back reasonable I'm happy to experiment and see how well E. Cottonii works for a mild cycle with minor suppression. If the bloods come back not that good, then my PCT will be Nolva. I'm not going to play Russian roulette here.

That said, the rationale for running it without a SERM, is that if you run them together, how can you determine if the compound is actually doing anything?

 

[UncleSarm]

What? Why?. The only thing that that ABSTRACT possible proves is that ECE has little toxic effects to the kidney and liver. This abstract or study has absolutely nothing to do with PCT.

Did I totally read it wrong?

 

[lamapuppy]

Any Black Lion Research (BLR) reps that would be interested in exchanging a free bottle of Rebirth for logging before-PCT and after-PCT bloods?

According to the study above, it should be as good as or better than Tamox/Nolva. So if my after-cycle-pre-PCT bloods come back as not too bad, I am willing to experiment with an OTC-only PCT, with just Rebirth.
Nolva would be three weeks at 20/10/10 and the study showed that the E. Cottonii was administered at about 10x the Nolva dose, so it would be 200/100/100. Rebirth has a little higher than that, but I can always either split the amounts or go eod. I was also thinking Sup3rPCT, but it has a lot of compounds in it, so hard to say what worked and what didn't, while in Rebirth it is only one of two ingredients. Personally I am curious about the E. Cottonii itself.

For completeness, I am currently on a 25mg ED Osta cycle (logged on this forum).

Jebrook might be a person to talk to. I know he's a BLR rep.

 

[T-Bone]

Did I totally read it wrong?

Yes, it was a study about using ECE instead of tamox for cancer treatment on rats.

The study reports on rat mammary tumor suppression and tissue antioxidant status modulation by E. cottonii ethanol extract (ECE)

 

[UncleSarm]

Thanks for the comments.
I went and re-read the study and it says "The ECE is antiestrogenic, much like TAM, which affected the cancer-associated estrogen receptors, signaling molecules, and gene expression". It's not very clear here if ECE is the same as Tamox in the fact that it "affected the cancer-associated estrogen receptors" or if it's similar to Tamox, which works in said way, while being silent about how ECE works.
A bit like "rugby is a sport for men with odd shaped balls" if you ask me, not being clear if it's the sport or the men that have odd shaped balls.
Glad you called me on it, as it now has raised questions about it.

 

[UncleSarm]

However, seaweed (which is what ECE is derived from) is high in lignans, that are converted into phytoestrogens in the human body, which in turn compete for estrogen receptors in the human body. So it may be possible that ECE may work in a similar fashion as Tamox.
Studies are being made to use seaweed extract as a replacement in women. I don't have a reference for these though.

Edit: Adding link to article on Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators and Phytoestrogens
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2587438/

Dietary Seaweed Modifies Estrogen and Phytoestrogen Metabolism in Healthy Postmenopausal Women
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/5/939.full

The spectrum of phytoestrogens in nature: our knowledge is expanding
http://www.hormones.gr/183/article/article.html

 

[Jebrook]

Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner. Thanks Iamapuppy for the tag. UncleSarm if you have a Rebirth question the best place to ask is in the BLR sub forum where brundel (creator) would see your questions. No worries though and I'll do my best to help.
I've use Rebirth twice for pct without a traditional pharma SERM like Nolva or Clomid. I did use Viron and Letrone(test booster and AI, respectively) with it and really enjoyed it. The first cycle was 1 andro solo and the other was Msten solo. Anecdotally, I recovered well and maintained my gains and had a raging libido. The only bloods I've done recently the past year are baseline bloods before starting each cycle. A month after using Rebirth I was returned to baseline and I cycled again. I can link you to vujade's Rebirth log if you have not seen it yet. He had a very long and suppressive cycle and very detailed before and after blood work. I will look for helpful links as well.

 

[BlockBuilder]

If using rebirth what would be an acceptable dose of formeron to use to get HPTA running well. Here's my predicament with formeron. 1 pump does its job controlling estro sides no matter what for me. 2 pumps gives me a strange euphoric alpha feeling and it makes my balls really firm and hard, balls hang super low and libido goes through the frickin roof. But...joint issues begin to arise. Not sure what to do. Joint pain sucks ya know

 

[Jebrook]

If you haven't seen these threads yet there is a lot of good info in them:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/265587-vujades-blr-rebirth.html?highlight=Rebirth

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/black-lion-research/256488-who-wants-new.html

Also, as a side note. The ECE was added late in the formulation as it was found to be cost effective and had supporting evidence of being an effective estrogen modulator. The ellagic acid cyclidextrin complex was always intended to be the heart of this product and it is what Brundel based his research upon, I believe.
As far as making comparisons on Rebirth being as or more effective than Nolva, I would never do that. Nolva is simply too well researched with decades of usage and Rebirth is extremely new and innovative. It will take time and inquiring open minds to truly realize exactly how effective it is. But from my experience it is solid especially for lighter shorter cycles. Anecdotally, I've used Nolva before and really noticed very little difference between PCT with it or Rebirth. I had no bloods to compare. Both had my libido back up and helped me feel better again and maintain most of my weight. I never had atrophy or gyno so no comparisons can be made there.

 

[Jebrook]

If using rebirth what would be an acceptable dose of formeron to use to get HPTA running well. Here's my predicament with formeron. 1 pump does its job controlling estro sides no matter what for me. 2 pumps gives me a strange euphoric alpha feeling and it makes my balls really firm and hard, balls hang super low and libido goes through the frickin roof. But...joint issues begin to arise. Not sure what to do. Joint pain sucks ya know

I would stick with 50 mg (1 ml.). You could try 75 mg (1.5 ml) if you have an oral syringe. Just pour out into an small airtight Tupperware container. Above 100 mg you will get conversion into a ph so it would be counterproductive to PCT. I would only use higher does alongside a heavily aromatizing compound on cycle.

 

[vujade]

I you've used Rebirth twice now after both a heavy cycle, and a lighter cycle, and
i have recovered both times. But i was also using Viron and Letrone as well.

 

[T-Bone]

If using rebirth what would be an acceptable dose of formeron to use to get HPTA running well. Here's my predicament with formeron. 1 pump does its job controlling estro sides no matter what for me. 2 pumps gives me a strange euphoric alpha feeling and it makes my balls really firm and hard, balls hang super low and libido goes through the frickin roof. But...joint issues begin to arise. Not sure what to do. Joint pain sucks ya know

Tells us more about your balls. Be descriptive. Maybe post a few selfies.

 

[Jebrook]

Tells us more about your balls. Be descriptive. Maybe post a few selfies.

Lol. Uh oh OP. T-Bone has taken notice of your boyz. Better watch out. Don't ever accept a spot from strangers even if they have candy!

 

[Cutty636]

Bump for reference

 

[UncleSarm]

After finishing a 6-week Osta cycle, I am doing an OCT PCT. My log is here: First Osta cycle

 

[jakelocker93]

Finished a msten and dmz cycle, gained 14lbs, on week 4 of rebirth along with 75mg of arimistane and I've only lost 1 pound, strength is up and I've leaned out somehow.. So I'm thinking rebirth is pretty solid of a product. I'd give it a go

 

[hairygrandpa]

By any chance, could you post bloods before PCT, during and -after?

This would be GREAT!!!!

 

[UncleSarm]

By any chance, could you post bloods before PCT, during and -after?

This would be GREAT!!!!

I have bloods on my log. Still missing post-PCT bloods as I'm not done yet.

 

[rowdyroddy]

Have used OTC PCT successfully for three cycles of Ostarine @ 25mg, 15mg and 10mg. Last two cycles of Ostarine was also with Lecheek Andro 5A.
PCT each time was OL Sup3r PCT and Wicked Supplements RES100 + other ancillaries.

 

[SwoleNation]

Bump, One year later.

Rebirth....

Good enough as a SERM?

 

[PoSiTiVeFLoW]

I am gonna say no, not comparable to Novla for me... i did post cycle bloods after a long dmz, m1ad, and epi research cycle with German Pharma and used BLR rebirth... and Armistane ad-3 pct.

Anyway, shutdown as a mofo, and free test didn't recover until weeks 4-8, between monthly bloods maybe week 5-6.

However using purerawz Novladex liquid, my free test recovered in under a week last PCT (total test was still low at this point of course). If started at end of cycle, Novla started my free test up way faster...