For how long after finishing a SERM cycle should you continue an AI?

[conkertheking]

I'm going to do an unsponsored log of BLR's new AI, Letrone, and their SERM Rebirth, in the next month or so (depending on when I get a chance to get pre bloods done).

What I'm wondering is this: SERMs increase gonadotropins and thus testosterone as the body is fooled into thinking that E2 is too low and more needs to be made. Therefore, it's always recommended that ideally one would take an AI alongside a SERM to make sure that there isn't a nasty rebound from all the extra E2 created during the SERM cycle to go to town on the estrogen receptors once the SERM has been stopped.

What I'm wondering is, how long *after* finishing the SERM do levels tend to settle back down? I currently have a one month supply of the SERM, while the AI can either be dosed at one cap or two caps per day. With 60 caps per bottle, that can either be a one or two month cycle depending on how heavily you dose it.

So my plan is as follows: Begin the AI (Letrone) and the SERM (Rebirth) on the same day. Dose Letrone at one cap per day for the first 30 days (which will be the length of the Rebirth cycle) and then after the last day of Rebirth, up the Letrone dose to two caps per day, which means it should last approximately two more weeks before I run out. Will be getting bloods done at the end of Rebirth, at the end of Letrone, and finally a month after stopping both, to see how long-lasting the effects are.

Essentially what I'm asking is, is two weeks enough time to keep aromatase suppressed, after finishing a SERM cycle? Or would it be better if I did a full extra month of AI at a lower dose? I'd really like to do the two caps per day just so as my log could include a discussion of how big a difference the double dose makes, but obviously safety comes first, and if two weeks isn't considered long enough to avoid an estrogen rebound (I have enough estrogen related issues leftover from being the fat kid in school during puberty >_> ) then I'd seriously consider abandoning that idea and just doing a separate log some time down the line with a two cap dosage.

Thoughts?

 

[Canes325]

Why not stagger the rebirth and AI like you would in a PCT?
Rebirth
2/2/2/2/0/0
Letrone
0/0/2/2/2/1/1 something like that. Regardless I wouldn't be overly concerned with rebound from rebirth.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

AI during (if needed), SERM only, in PCT. See:

This, works every time for me. People have to realize the body is working on its own via the CYP450 family of enzymes to metabolize any excess estrogen that would be present. This happens relatively quickly. Far more quickly than Gyno could ever form. That's another thing. People have to understand what Gyno is. It isn't swollen breast tissue or sensitive breast tissue is is the formation and presence of a fibrous mass in breast tissue. Quite often what people refer to as "Gyno" is in fact not Gyno at all. There are certain times in your cycle, primarily in the beginning and at the end , where hormonal fluctuations are taking place and the aforementioned conditions will occur and people jump to the erroneous conclusion that it is Gyno and start throwing compounds at it unnecessarily. That's a big mistake. Then you are chasing your tail. Following what you have outlined has worked for years. I do not feel there is a place for an AI at all in PCT. The estrogen agonist and antagonist activity SERMs provide are optimal for restoring HPTA function and the body on its own, will metabolize any excess estrogen long before Gyno could form. It doesn't occur overnight. Gyno takes time to actually form.

Now, things may be different when using a natural compound for SERM functions.

 

[vujade]

You could also try something like this....

Rebirth: 2 / 2 / 2 / 2 / 0 / 0 / 0
Letrone: 1 / 1 / 1 / 1 / 2 / 2 / 2

If you run the 3 weeks after PCT @ 5 days on and 2 days off, you could get 3 weeks out of your Letrone
after the PCT Is over.

 

[Canes325]

AI during (if needed), SERM only, in PCT. See:



Now, things may be different when using a natural compound for SERM functions.

Yea I followed that thread as well. A lot of what Stanley said makes sense, but if the body was so efficient at removing excess estrogen why do we still see estro rebound that later forms gyno months after a pct? it makes more sense to me and I'll try and explain why. Serms block E from binding to receptors, which tricks the body into thinking there isn't enough E in the body. The body turns around and increases T production in hopes of converting that T to E. What else does the body need to do this? The enzyme aromatase. So I *imagine* it increase production of both T and Aromatase. So a few weeks into PCT we got more T and A floating around which in turn converts to E. But that E has no where to bind to because of the serm. (Hence why you always taper your serms). Then we drop the serm after the 4th week and our body works on balancing everything out. Theoretically, of we still have too much E that the body can't process and eliminate quick enough what's the next most logical thing for the body to do? Decrease T production in order to decrease aromatizaton. To then in turn decrease E.
My whole thought process is this, why not help the body out by using a serm(kickstart the hpta) then introduce an AI to keep aromatase from converting too much T to E. Tapering off the AI just like you do with a serm to make recovery more linear and less peaks and valleys with your hormone levels.

I really hope that post turned out coherent as I typed that out on my phone lol. That's how I look at pct anyway. I Look forward to those more knowledgable than I to chime in.

 

[warbird01]

Just stagger it like people do with PCTs. Run it 2 weeks after your "SERM."

I wouldn't worry about it though.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

warbird01 - If it's not intentional, your PM Box is full

 

[brundel]

I would run them both at 2 caps for 30 days.
So long as you have Letrone running the whole time estro will wind up lowish and test will end up High ish.
Aromatase will also be low so....
The body will of course seek homeostasis and estro will rise a bit and test will drop a bit leaving you in a favorable state.
On the cycle your estro will be low and test high so also favorable. = win win.

Im a fan of pedal to the metal so long as there is no reason to do otherwise.

Or you can stagger......but... The effects of Letrone validate running it full bore man. Ive seen the combo raise post cycle test levels above pre cycle numbers.
Ive seen Letrone alone raise test from 100-600.
Its a magic combo for some and worth just running them full dose/30 days.

 

[warbird01]

warbird01 - If it's not intentional, your PM Box is full

just cleared it

 

[conkertheking]

I would run them both at 2 caps for 30 days.
So long as you have Letrone running the whole time estro will wind up lowish and test will end up High ish.
Aromatase will also be low so....
The body will of course seek homeostasis and estro will rise a bit and test will drop a bit leaving you in a favorable state.
On the cycle your estro will be low and test high so also favorable. = win win.

Im a fan of pedal to the metal so long as there is no reason to do otherwise.

Or you can stagger......but... The effects of Letrone validate running it full bore man. Ive seen the combo raise post cycle test levels above pre cycle numbers.
Ive seen Letrone alone raise test from 100-600.
Its a magic combo for some and worth just running them full dose/30 days.

While this sounds epic, my one hesitation (and it's a fairly big one) is that since I haven't actually taken any steroids or PHes and just have a naturally crappy hormone ratio, I fear taking two caps / day would risk plunging E2 far too low. I noticed over time when I was on 200mg Formestane / day (transdermal) that I became quite lethargic and unmotivated, compared to the epic energy blast I experienced when I was only on 100mg / day - and that was the first time I got a lab test done which regarded my E2 as being below the normal range.

The other issue is that as I'm trying to test the water to see if I can get rid of some gyno, I feel like having the combined effect of this cycle for 6 weeks as opposed to 4 might be more beneficial,

And finally, let's suppose I dose Letrone at 2 caps per day along with Rebirth at the same time, starting both on the same day and finishing both on the same day.

After having finished, would I not run the risk of Letrone's absence allowing aromatase to start rising and going to town on all the extra text created by Rebirth? And furthermore, since we don't yet know whether Letrone is suicidal or not, would this not add an additional rebound risk?

I know I'm overthinking this, but I very much want to get this right both for my own benefit and for the sake of having a comprehensive log for those interested. Of course, if you reckon my caveats here are irrelevant or not something to worry about, I'd be inclined to listen to that considering you invented the stuff

 

[brundel]

I think you would be ok but if your sensitive to AIs its possible Letrone will cause estro to drop too much.
Because estro will be low post cycle and test will be high yes some will aromatize but itll slowly creep up and test will slowly drop.
If your worried...stagger it brother. I just love seeing what these products do at full dose. Its very impressive.
I still think itll work well if staggered. Keep us posted with what you plan on doing and updated on results.
Maybe log it?

 

[conkertheking]

I think you would be ok but if your sensitive to AIs its possible Letrone will cause estro to drop too much.
Because estro will be low post cycle and test will be high yes some will aromatize but itll slowly creep up and test will slowly drop.
If your worried...stagger it brother. I just love seeing what these products do at full dose. Its very impressive.
I still think itll work well if staggered. Keep us posted with what you plan on doing and updated on results.
Maybe log it?

Oh I'm definitely logging it, with bloods for hormones and also liver and renal function just to see if either compound has side effects in those areas. Just been too busy lately to book my bloods appointment, will start as soon as I have the pre bloods results in my hand.