AI alongside SERM...Good idea or no???

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    AI alongside SERM...Good idea or no???


    Im in the process of putting together a PCT for my upcoming Estane cycle and have run across a question, being, would it be wise to run an AI(Triazole) alongside a SERM(Tamox citrate) for any amount of time or at all for that matter.

    My PCT for 4-6 weeks of Estane is as follows:

    PCT: D.S. Activate Extreme 4/4/4/4/0/0/4/4/4/4/0/0
    D.S Triazole 3/3/3/3/0/0/0/0/3/3/3/3
    D.S. Lean Xtreme 0/0/3/3/3/3/0/0/3/3/3/3
    with either:
    Nolva 40/20/10 but tapering down from 40mgs to 10mgs in about 14 days if possible
    OR
    Torem 90/80/80/60-Im still pretty unsure about Torem dosing as info can be kinda hard to obtain.


    My reason behind the above question is, by running a strong AI while also running a SERM would I stand the chance of supressing estrogen too much?
    I tried doing a search but that yeilded too many threads which didnt contain the info Im looking for and it was kind of annoying trying to pick through them all

    Thanks fellas
    Last edited by TheBreeze; 04-07-2011 at 11:30 PM. Reason: incorrect Triazole dosages

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    I don't think you would need nolva WITH an AI. If you dose the AI use torem instead of nolva.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakaveliThaDon View Post
    I don't think you would need nolva WITH an AI. If you dose the AI use torem instead of nolva.
    What would be the difference/benefit of using Torem instead of Nolva?
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    You'll likely not need an AI for a cycle of epi. Though if you want to run one have a look at this thread... specifically post 5. It talks about using AI's in PCT with Epi. It's an older thread, but one of the best out there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    You'll likely not need an AI for a cycle of epi. Though if you want to run one have a look at this thread... specifically post 5. It talks about using AI's in PCT with Epi. It's an older thread, but one of the best out there.

    Neoborn's Epistane FAQ - Q and A baby!
    Good link.

    From what I read it seems I would be ok running the two together as long as each was tapered opposite the other.

    Im still curious as to why and how much better Id be running Torem over Nolva cause all Ive read is good stuff regarding Torem.

    So I am thinking somewhere along the lines of my PCT going :
    PCT: D.S. Activate Extreme 4/4/4/4/0/0/4/4/4/4/0/0
    D.S Triazole 1/2/3/3/0/0/0/0/3/3/3/3
    D.S. Lean Xtreme 0/0/3/3/3/3/0/0/3/3/3/3
    with either:
    Nolva 40/20/10 but tapering down from 40mgs to 10mgs in about 14 days if possible
    OR
    Torem 90/80/80/60-Im still pretty unsure about Torem dosing as info can be kinda hard to obtain.


    Does this sound appropriate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
    Good link.

    From what I read it seems I would be ok running the two together as long as each was tapered opposite the other.

    Im still curious as to why and how much better Id be running Torem over Nolva cause all Ive read is good stuff regarding Torem.

    So I am thinking somewhere along the lines of my PCT going :
    PCT: D.S. Activate Extreme 4/4/4/4/0/0/4/4/4/4/0/0
    D.S Triazole 1/2/3/3/0/0/0/0/3/3/3/3
    D.S. Lean Xtreme 0/0/3/3/3/3/0/0/3/3/3/3
    with either:
    Nolva 40/20/10 but tapering down from 40mgs to 10mgs in about 14 days if possible
    OR
    Torem 90/80/80/60-Im still pretty unsure about Torem dosing as info can be kinda hard to obtain.


    Does this sound appropriate?
    I've taken both before, both will get the job done. They are very different compounds though. Nolva is much more of an anti estrogen, where as torem and clomid for that matter are somewhat both an estrogen antagonist/inhibitor.

    That's why I say if you are going to run an AI with it for estrogen, you'd be better off not using the nolva and using the torem instead. If you are not gonna use the AI then it's really personal choice between the two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakaveliThaDon View Post
    I've taken both before, both will get the job done. They are very different compounds though. Nolva is much more of an anti estrogen, where as torem and clomid for that matter are somewhat both an estrogen antagonist/inhibitor.

    That's why I say if you are going to run an AI with it for estrogen, you'd be better off not using the nolva and using the torem instead. If you are not gonna use the AI then it's really personal choice between the two.
    It sounds to me like I should use Torem then cause I want to run the DS stack the way its designed.

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBreeze View Post
    It sounds to me like I should use Torem then cause I want to run the DS stack the way its designed.

    Thanks
    Torem also directly stimulates LH and FSH, does not lower GH and IGF-1 and it's also known for increasing libido a ton during PCT. Significantly less toxic as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Torem also directly stimulates LH and FSH, does not lower GH and IGF-1 and it's also known for increasing libido a ton during PCT. Significantly less toxic as well.
    That's good to hear, cause I kinda want to run Torem instead anyways just due to my first and only run with Tamox.

    If I were to go the Torem route, would the above dosing scheme suffice? Or should I start at 120mgs for 2-3 days then 90 for 4-5 days then 60 for 2 weeks and finish up with 30 for a week, and honestly, these doses are right off the top of my head and its about 12:15am and I just go home from work so I might be a little off.

    Anyways, I am ridiculously stoked to get this Epi in my system and start seeing the BF fall off like it did with H-drol for my first ever cycle. And that was kinda poorly planned as well, so I have high expectations for this cycle which will be #3 for me.
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    90/60/60/30 should be good for Torem, if you want to keep it a bit higher, 120/90/60/30 can be used as well.
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    I usually used torem at 120 for the first 3 days then finish the wk at 90 with the rest 60/60/30. Been happy with that method for myself.

    One of the links in the epistane Q&A thread gives some info on the various torem dosages.
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    Very good link CopyCat. That was highly informative as well as easy to understand.

    Honestly, I think I am gonna go with the Torem simply due to the lower possibility for negative sides. Now I just hope my supplier is legit.

    Also in going with the Torem I think I will stick with one of the more common dosing schemes of 120-3, 90-4/60/60/30. And if I were to run the Estane for 6 weeks total would I still be safe with these dosages?

    As I said the other day, I am getting more and more excited to start this cycle with every passing day. So I want to make sure I have everything all set prior to popping that first little white capsule.

    Thanks
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    After a considerable amount of time and reading I believe I have come across my final set of for my Estane cycle. It is as follows:

    Preload: x 2 weeks
    Hawthorne Berry
    Milk Thistle

    Cycle:
    Cycle Assist as directed throughout time ON
    Estane 30/40/40/40-possible 40/40 if sides:gains are tolerable
    Fish Oil 5-10g ED
    MultiVitamin 1 tablet ED
    MiraLAX 1-2 capfulls/day(cause I get very constipated on CA)

    PCT:
    D.S. Activate Extreme 4/4/4/4/0/0/4/4/4/4/0/0
    D.S Triazole 1/2/3/3/0/0/0/0/3/3/3/3
    D.S. Lean Xtreme 0/0/3/3/3/3/0/0/3/3/3/3
    Torem 120-3, 90-4/60/60/30


    Does this sound adequate to those of you who are far more experience than myself?

    I am EXTREMELY excited to get this mo-fo underway cause I DO NOT like what I see in the mirror lately.
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    [quote=CopyCat;2825442]You'll likely not need an AI for a cycle of epi. Though if you want to run one have a look at this thread... specifically post 5. It talks about using AI's in PCT with Epi. It's an older thread, but one of the best out there.

    [
    actually.... technically you would... if youve seen some of the blood work on epi it looks like estro sides are suppressed, but numbers remain high meaning binding affinity is there, but ability to reduce is not. so its SERM like not AI like. as most would say from studies in japan.

    with that said i would use an AI the middle weeks of the SERM to reduce "rebound" and estadiol levels Nolva doesnt reduce estradiol, but reduces estrong sulphate which has a long halflife and long after cycles over converts to estradiol hence rebound gyno... which doesnt occuer from strictly AI use.
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssbackwards View Post
    [
    actually.... technically you would... if youve seen some of the blood work on epi it looks like estro sides are suppressed, but numbers remain high meaning binding affinity is there, but ability to reduce is not. so its SERM like not AI like. as most would say from studies in japan.

    with that said i would use an AI the middle weeks of the SERM to reduce "rebound" and estadiol levels Nolva doesnt reduce estradiol, but reduces estrong sulphate which has a long halflife and long after cycles over converts to estradiol hence rebound gyno... which doesnt occuer from strictly AI use.
    .
    So what are recommending is wait a week or so before starting the AI?

    And concerning estrogen rebound, I should be ok cause I'll keep the AI around for 12 weeks post cycle, correct?
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    unless your prone to gyno I don't see a need for an ai. I'd run femara or forma stanzol if you have to run an ai on cycle.
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    To be honest, IDK if Im gyno prone but I have had prolactin issues in the past which have improve greatly over the past few years, but either way, I definitely dont want any gyno popping up. Im already super self conscious about my body the way it is.

    As for the AI, to my understanding an aromatize inhibitor is mainly to prevent testosterone from being converted into estrogen, am I wrong? Im not saying this to be a jerk but rather to better understand what will be going into my body.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    unless your prone to gyno I don't see a need for an ai. I'd run femara or forma stanzol if you have to run an ai on cycle.
    My bad Mich29 I misread your post. I was not planning to run the AI while ON cycle but only during PCT along with Torem.

    I will also use this post to 'bump' this thread for more confirmation or question to my PCT.

  

  
 

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