Tired of liver supplements that are under-dosed herbal crap

[BigBlackGuy]

Title pretty much explains it. Liver Longer (TUDCA), UDCA (Research chem sites) and Liver Juice (PPs high-dosed Milk thistle) I believe are the three effective products in terms of liver health.

AND lots of water.

 

[rulk22]

Title pretty much explains it. Liver Longer (TUDCA), UDCA (Research chem sites) and Liver Juice (PPs high-dosed Milk thistle) I believe are the three effective products in terms of liver health.

AND lots of water.

Ive got to look into TUDCA, but I agree, I like to get ingrediants solo and run them at high doses. And lots of water.

 

[airvine91]

Milk Thistle prevents the activated Androgen receptor from activating genes in DNA to promote muscle synthesis. So I hear at least.

I just used N-Acetyl-Cysteine and Liv52 instead. I also up my fiber and probiotics to keep the gut healthy which helps clear the liver.

 

[oze]

so, pp's utlra potent milk thistle (liver juice) is ultra detremental to aas?

 

[OnTheRoadTo]

I too doses of liver juice 4 hours spaced away from my orals and still gained 27 lbs in 6 weeks and have the stretch marks on my biceps to prove it. Don't overthink it.

 

[Rodja]

I too doses of liver juice 4 hours spaced away from my orals and still gained 27 lbs in 6 weeks and have the stretch marks on my biceps to prove it. Don't overthink it.

This.

Ultimately, it's still in each person's interest to take care of their health.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Milk Thistle prevents the activated Androgen receptor from activating genes in DNA to promote muscle synthesis. So I hear at least.

I just used N-Acetyl-Cysteine and Liv52 instead. I also up my fiber and probiotics to keep the gut healthy which helps clear the liver.

Liv-52 I've used (both the capsulated version and tablets) and I can say it's decent, but it's hard to find a lot of independant studies on all the ingredients (would appreciate links if you have any, btw, lol). NAC is another good one.

Protecting liver vs. losing minimal gains on cycle? Easy for me to choose.

 

[rulk22]

I like the timing of Milk thistle prior to dosing anabolics, and its good to use it 2 weeks before and after the cycle as well. I also hear its good to double up on vitamin versus nac. Ill even use ala with nac as I hear it kind of makes you insulin resistant. Last is double up your water, the most under-rated strategy imo.

 

[kain1012]

does purus organ shield count as a decent liver support? I will be starting Epol soon and everything is covered just asking a question I can always change. I want the best when I go on.

 

[Yaz]

Title pretty much explains it. Liver Longer (TUDCA), UDCA (Research chem sites) and Liver Juice (PPs high-dosed Milk thistle) I believe are the three effective products in terms of liver health.

AND lots of water.

Exactly, that's what i usually prefer/recommend to others.

UDCA i believe has 3,5 days of half life, so 2 times per week dosing is a common protocol.

 

[drofwarc]

Exactly, that's what i usually prefer/recommend to others.

UDCA i believe has 3,5 days of half life, so 2 times per week dosing is a common protocol.

2 times per week? Wow cool. At what dosage though? And would you still recommend Liv 52 or milk thistle?

 

[Yaz]

2 times per week? Wow cool. At what dosage though? And would you still recommend Liv 52 or milk thistle?

Milk Thistle as last resort due to negative inhibition with AR receptors(i have posted a study in another thread).

NAC, Liv52, ALA are good.

UDCA is usually being run at 500-1000mg/week in 2 split doses.

 

[drofwarc]

Milk Thistle as last resort due to negative inhibition with AR receptors(i have posted a study in another thread).

NAC, Liv52, ALA are good.

UDCA is usually being run at 500-1000mg/week in 2 split doses.

Oh sweet. I'll have a search for that thread too

 

[Yaz]

Oh sweet. I'll have a search for that thread too

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/171683-milk-thistle-hurts.html

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Anyone ever try N2Guard? I've thought about picking that up for a future cycle (especially now that I'm a rep )

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Anyone ever try N2Guard? I've thought about picking that up for a future cycle (especially now that I'm a rep )

Nope. I posted in another thread about how it's severely underdosed on several ingredients, there doesn't seem to be any standard for the extracts and that it is much easier to simply use UDCA, NAC or Milk Thistle (all proven and effective).

 

[TML499]

Does the TUDCA found in liver longer (not RC UDCA) also have a long half life? I want to buy 1 instead of 2 so wondering if it will be cool to do a dosage of like 2/1/2/1 switching off every other day.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/171683-milk-thistle-hurts.html

Can you direct me to where the study shows muscle AR is being blocked? Sorry I don't have the time to look though the study atm, though I have seen it before.

 

[Yaz]

Does the TUDCA found in liver longer (not RC UDCA) also have a long half life? I want to buy 1 instead of 2 so wondering if it will be cool to do a dosage of like 2/1/2/1 switching off every other day.

To be honest i personally haven't found anything through the net about this issue months now and still looking for. Some say around 24-28hours but i can't be certain.

Can you direct me to where the study shows muscle AR is being blocked? Sorry I don't have the time to look though the study atm, though I have seen it before.

Of course i can.

Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.
Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Mayo Graduate School, Mayo Clinic/Foundation, Rochester, MN 55905, USA.

Abstract
A number of reports have shown that the polyphenolic flavonoid silymarin (SM) is an effective anticancer agent. Agents with novel mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of SM, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line, LNCaP, by arresting the cell cycle at the G(1) phase without causing cell death. This study further delineates the potential molecular mechanism by which SM and SB exhibit antiproliferative effects on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that SM and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2). Additionally, for the first time, we show that an immunophilin, FKBP51, is androgen regulated and that this up-regulation is suppressed by SM and SB. We further demonstrate that transactivation activity of the AR was diminished by SM and SB using gene transfer of PSA promoter and hK2 androgen-responsive element constructs. However, expression and steroid-binding ability of total AR were not affected by SM in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens using western blotting assay and immunocytochemical staining. This study provides a new insight into how SM and SB negatively modulate androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

Link: Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen recept... [Carcinogenesis. 2001] - PubMed result

 

[RickRock13]

Anyone ever try N2Guard? I've thought about picking that up for a future cycle (especially now that I'm a rep )

Its what I'm using next cycle. I actually like the ingredient profile of it, and how it doesn't just have a few overdosed items in it.

 

[warbird01]

Title pretty much explains it. Liver Longer (TUDCA), UDCA (Research chem sites) and Liver Juice (PPs high-dosed Milk thistle) I believe are the three effective products in terms of liver health.

AND lots of water.

You list Liver Juice (milk thistle) in your thread of stuff that is not under dosed?

What single ingredient milk thistle product is under dosed? That makes no sense...

 

[BB12]

http://www.physorg.com/news190631886.html

http://mayoresearch.mayo.edu/mayo/research/lindor_lab/udca.cfm

 

[EasyEJL]

Outside of t-bone, how many people have had any lasting liver issue from any cycle whether using liver support or not? unless you get your liver to the point of cell necrosis, it bounces back and rapidly. Cholesterol support on cycle is way more important for health.

 

[SinewySig]

YAZ, good recommendation of NAC, Liv-52, and ALA. I'm surprised I don't see more posts on Liv-52.

I must say though, the Milk Thistle study you posted appears very weak. I would like to see more solid data and more than one study. Guys have been using Milk Thistle for years with great gains.

 

[SinewySig]

EasyEJL, great point about cholesterol levels. You don't hear a lot of people talking about taking high amounts of a good Omega-3 supplement while using orals.

 

[ryansm]

Outside of t-bone, how many people have had any lasting liver issue from any cycle whether using liver support or not? unless you get your liver to the point of cell necrosis, it bounces back and rapidly. Cholesterol support on cycle is way more important for health.

I agree, but cover all bases, my position...don't half ass your cycle.

 

[rulk22]

EasyEJL, great point about cholesterol levels. You don't hear a lot of people talking about taking high amounts of a good Omega-3 supplement while using orals.

I take Krill and efa's year round and hopefully guys do this and not just while on cycle.

 

[Yaz]

High dose UDCA therapy does not improve overall liver histology in obesity related hepatitis

High Dose UDCA in PSC

Interesting but still UDCA is approved for primary biliary cirrhosis and for AAS users is useful for preventing 17aa steroid induced cholestasis - it's a bile excreting agent. Even though i don't have any serious knowledge in chemistry, i believe it has different mechanism of action that's why in the studies you posted did not help.

PS UDCA is proven to also lower LDL.

Outside of t-bone, how many people have had any lasting liver issue from any cycle whether using liver support or not? unless you get your liver to the point of cell necrosis, it bounces back and rapidly. Cholesterol support on cycle is way more important for health.

Cannot agree more with you :yup:

YAZ, good recommendation of NAC, Liv-52, and ALA. I'm surprised I don't see more posts on Liv-52.

I must say though, the Milk Thistle study you posted appears very weak. I would like to see more solid data and more than one study. Guys have been using Milk Thistle for years with great gains.

First of thank you.

Don't trying to be a smartass by no means, but there's nothing more solid than a medical study in my book. I don't know if i can find any others on this particular subject but i will try.

Edit:
- Isosilybin A induces apoptosis in human prostate c... [Mol Carcinog. 2010] - PubMed result (Isosilybin is one of the polyphenols of MT)
- Silibinin up-regulates insulin-like growth factor-... [Cancer Res. 2000] - PubMed result (Silibilin is one of the polyphenols of MT)
- Targeting silibinin in the antiproliferative pathw... [Expert Opin Investig Drugs. 2010] - PubMed result
- Isosilybin B causes androgen receptor degradation ... [Oncogene. 2008] - PubMed result

 

[BigBlackGuy]

You list Liver Juice (milk thistle) in your thread of stuff that is not under dosed?

What single ingredient milk thistle product is under dosed? That makes no sense...

I list liver juice because milk thistle has a poor bioavailability. In the LV tech, the absorption/bioavailability is increased. Not so with regular milk thistle. It is also a product I am very familiar with, have used on cycle and is one I would recommend to most guys.

To be fair, I would recommend TDUCA or UDCA before milk thistle/Liver Juice anyway. But if someone wants to use milk thistle, it'll be the one I recommend.

 

[rulk22]

I list liver juice because milk thistle has a poor bioavailability. In the LV tech, the absorption/bioavailability is increased. Not so with regular milk thistle. It is also a product I am very familiar with, have used on cycle and is one I would recommend to most guys.

To be fair, I would recommend TDUCA or UDCA before milk thistle/Liver Juice anyway. But if someone wants to use milk thistle, it'll be the one I recommend.

Id 2nd that. If suggesting a milk thistle product, im goin to say Liver Juice regardless of association.