SERMs and potential blod clots and stroke.

[steakboy]

I'm going to bring up an interesting question that's been spinning around in my head ever since i went to a urologist to check if the soldiers are still fit for duty.

After speaking with the doc he says the constant cycling of on and off and your testes rebounding so often is detrimental to the long term of your sperm count. eventually leading to possible infertility. He said quote,"they will rebound only so many times". He pointed me to the method of HRT which seems to be a bit safer. He also seemed to be a strong proponent of testosterone gels for delivery rather than injections.

Additionally he almost feinted when i told him i used SERMs after a cycle. He said that there's a rather fatal side effect with blood clots and strokes. This isn't talked about much on the boards or... well anywhere for that matter. I had to specifically look up this problem and it seems that the people who use it for what the drug is intended (fertility) are having issues with this.

So on to my question... there has to be a safer way. I've used DIM coming off mdrol before with moderate success. is there a way to cover MOST of the bases without resorting to dangerous substances like SERMs?

 

[BigBlackGuy]

That's why I try to always recommend a low dose SERM, just to try and negate some of the toxicity levels of SERMs.

The low dose SERM needs to be accompanied by an OTC PCT. I know Primordial makes quality supplements and I have the most experience with their line. The Testosterone Replacement Stack is going to work great with a low dose SERM.

If you want to only run the TRS, then it will suffice for shorter cycle. Anything over 6 weeks it may not be as effective unless you run it longer. 8 weeks instead of 4, but you'd need two of them. And that's just flat out too expensive.

 

[HereToStudy]

I'm going to bring up an interesting question that's been spinning around in my head ever since i went to a urologist to check if the soldiers are still fit for duty.

After speaking with the doc he says the constant cycling of on and off and your testes rebounding so often is detrimental to the long term of your sperm count. eventually leading to possible infertility. He said quote,"they will rebound only so many times". He pointed me to the method of HRT which seems to be a bit safer. He also seemed to be a strong proponent of testosterone gels for delivery rather than injections.

Additionally he almost feinted when i told him i used SERMs after a cycle. He said that there's a rather fatal side effect with blood clots and strokes. This isn't talked about much on the boards or... well anywhere for that matter. I had to specifically look up this problem and it seems that the people who use it for what the drug is intended (fertility) are having issues with this.

So on to my question... there has to be a safer way. I've used DIM coming off mdrol before with moderate success. is there a way to cover MOST of the bases without resorting to dangerous substances like SERMs?

Personally if you are looking for the best all around PCT that you can have without going the SERM route, you should consider the TRS.

 

[steakboy]

Says here that AI's aren't anywhere near as bad. that in conjuction with a smart use of hcg would be a good way to go.

I'm thinking of running a nice long 12 weeker here soon and i'll be a little smarter about my PCT. to hell with these SERMs man... why does everybody recommend using them if they're this bad?

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Says here that AI's aren't anywhere near as bad. that in conjuction with a smart use of hcg would be a good way to go.

I'm thinking of running a nice long 12 weeker here soon and i'll be a little smarter about my PCT. to hell with these SERMs man... why does everybody recommend using them if they're this bad?

Because it's what everyone does. So people usually just follow suit. Some intelligent minds develop other products, but because the big boys want to keep their hierarchy intact, they just keep putting OTC pct down.

 

[HereToStudy]

Says here that AI's aren't anywhere near as bad. that in conjuction with a smart use of hcg would be a good way to go.

I'm thinking of running a nice long 12 weeker here soon and i'll be a little smarter about my PCT. to hell with these SERMs man... why does everybody recommend using them if they're this bad?

hCG is a very smart choice for a 12 week cycle, and will surely help with your recovery. Eric has an article on hCG usage as well.

Personally, on a 12 week cycle, I would still use a SERM, but I would do it in a lower dosage than necessary since I would be running the TRS.

 

[steakboy]

I'm glad PP is out to help. you guys have a lot of real information and scientific facts to back your **** rather than all this bro-science everybody on the boards uses.

paying three times the price for a proper PCT is a little tough to swallow BUT when it comes down to if i'm going to get a blood clot and die or not, the choice really isn't much of a choice anymore, is it?

*lol'ing at the fact my PCT is going to cost more than my gear.

 

[rulk22]

Serms is way too pushed imo. I will admit, im toying with the idea of using a serm, but the idea of being able to do it naturally interests me more. I think for my next prohormone run ill only be using ( for PCT )the Testosterone Recovery Stack and TCF-1. I have a lot of confidence in this combo right here. If it does not bring me back to 100% fast enough, ill consider more to adding a serm.

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

Is a month on a SERM really that toxic? I thought these issues only came up in patients that were on long term SERM use.

 

[jbryand101b]

or you could just not use steroids, then you'd have nothing to worry about.

wich is alot better than wondering if that hundred so dollars you spent for pct products is worth it, or even if it'll work.

trs isn't made for stronger cycles, maybe turinabol, or 1-t, or their new andro series, but something like superdrol, no way.

 

[steakboy]

no way dude i'm DONE with PH's. my LDL is messed up hardcore right now. It's only straight up test inj for me in the future.

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

What will you use for PCT after a test cycle?

 

[steakboy]

that's what i was hoping to find out here... maybe raloxifene + TRS.

 

[schwellington]

ralax and torem are supposed to have LOW toxicity levels

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

Someone should run Clomid and/or Nolva for 4 weeks and get bloods done. I don't think short term use is detrimental..

 

[steakboy]

ralox has some pretty big numbers for thrombosis within the first 6 MONTHS of treatment. obviously there's no studies out there that include 4 weeks of treatment...

anyway, i'm thinking by controlling estrogen DURING and using hcg properlly, then low dosing a SERM and going a little more natural for my PCT i may mitigate SOME of these risks. I'm not a big fan of getting blood work done, but for the sake of science i would love to get some numbers to everybody during 4 weeks of low dosing raloxifene, though i don't think there's any blood work that will show a thrombosis or embolism is on the way. correct me if i'm wrong here...

 

[steakboy]

or you could just not use steroids, then you'd have nothing to worry about.

wich is alot better than wondering if that hundred so dollars you spent for pct products is worth it, or even if it'll work.

trs isn't made for stronger cycles, maybe turinabol, or 1-t, or their new andro series, but something like superdrol, no way.

also, not to ignore the validity of this... as i see where you're coming from. steroids is playing with fire. i know this... trust me. I'm not doing this because i think there's no risk of hurting myself, or because i think i'm invincible. what i AM doing is reducing potential risk by re-assessing my options. of course there would be less or no risk of a pulmonary embolism if i didn't do this. sure i would be safer if i didn't.

Let's take a step back and understand why i'm on here. I want to know a safer (not totally safe and idiot proof) way of getting my goals with what i have available to me.

 

[steakboy]

I know ralox is a serm... I think I said that. I know serms aren't the only bad guy here. Wait wait hold on here im trying to get a safer alternative not a flame on what everybody else is saying. I think you're biased on years of broscience and wont take a forward approach on something new. And what do you mean proven? You're saying that everybody on the boards is doing it. Look my first post was about a doctor warning me... so unless you cough up a doctorite im going to believe they aren't as safe as people are lead to believe. Additionally Eric from PP has some pretty convincing evidence.

Im not entirely sure you read everything here or you're taking things out of context maybe.

I had to churn this out on my droid so excuse the grammar and spelling.

 

[Movin_weight]

I'm interested in triptorelin which is an GnRH agonist. Theres only minimal research on it's use, but from what i've seen and heard it looks promising

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Someone should run Clomid and/or Nolva for 4 weeks and get bloods done. I don't think short term use is detrimental..

Blood won't show blood clots. Or other small things that toxicity might do. But if anyone is worried about that, then don't cycle.

Honestly, if you want to use a SERM, just use toremifene. It's not going to lower IGF-1 or GH. It's purported to have lower toxicity than other SERMs.

If you want to reduce toxicity even more, run it low dose with the TRS. If you have a vendetta against OTC PCT, don't talk trash on the TRS. Unless you've used it and gotten bloodwork showing it is bad, don't lump it in with other **** like novedex.

Novedex is why OTC PCT has a bad name. Yes, that stuff IS garbage and enough testimonials from people can pretty much seal that one.

 

[HondaV65]

I've been building my body since 1985 ...

Did it totally naturally up until this year when I ran an Epistane cycle followed by Torem PCT.

But ... during all the years I was natural - I had plenty of buddies who did steroids.

Not an expert - and with the new "designer steroids" that are less suppressive - maybe OTC PCT is the way to go ... I dunno.

But I can tell you straight up - people went to SERMS because body builders were getting gyno and losing their gains after quitting the juice.

And the SERMS work. I've never known anyone who had a blood clot, or a stroke, or had their livers explode on a SERM.

If you go OTC - I won't criticize you. For me actually - I'm scared of Clomid and Nolva, due to other sides I've heard attached to them. Others love Clomid and Nolva. For me - I like Torem (thinking about buying the pills next go-round).

Different people have different views - that's fine. Some like SERMS, some don't - to each his own.

Back in 1984, my buddies didn't use anything for PCT. They accepted the fact that they'd lose a percentage of their gains - that kind of sucked.

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

Blood won't show blood clots. Or other small things that toxicity might do. But if anyone is worried about that, then don't cycle.

I know. I'm curious about liver values since these things are "toxic".

 

[BigBlackGuy]

I know. I'm curious about liver values since these things are "toxic".

Yah, liver toxicity is overstated... but when run after a course of methyls and perhaps in conjunction with drinking (only if someone is really dumb) and aspirin.... then it starts getting wacky.

 

[steakboy]

Had bloods done 30 days after mdrol PULSE with otc pct and test levels were fine... more than fine actually. But the LDL levels were waaaay high. All I used for pct was DIM and terrestris. But we all know methyls do this. Sadly my doc didn't mark estradiol in my test so who knows how that was. I had itchy nips the whole way throght the pulse.

Hey if I get bloods done after my 12 weeks of test and PCT with ralox + trs maybe that will change some minds. I will modify the dosage of ralox if I can get some advice on how I should do it. That's cool if PP wants to shed some light on the subject. Or if anybody else is in the know.

Thanks for confirming big, no test for thombosis. Guess the only test is having one... and if anybody is confused(thrombosis or deep vein thrombosis(DVT) = blood clot) another possible side effect is pulmonary embolism whish is a clot in the lung)

 

[schwellington]

I've been building my body since 1985 ...

Did it totally naturally up until this year when I ran an Epistane cycle followed by Torem PCT.

But ... during all the years I was natural - I had plenty of buddies who did steroids.

Not an expert - and with the new "designer steroids" that are less suppressive - maybe OTC PCT is the way to go ... I dunno.

But I can tell you straight up - people went to SERMS because body builders were getting gyno and losing their gains after quitting the juice.

And the SERMS work. I've never known anyone who had a blood clot, or a stroke, or had their livers explode on a SERM.

If you go OTC - I won't criticize you. For me actually - I'm scared of Clomid and Nolva, due to other sides I've heard attached to them. Others love Clomid and Nolva. For me - I like Torem (thinking about buying the pills next go-round).

Different people have different views - that's fine. Some like SERMS, some don't - to each his own.

Back in 1984, my buddies didn't use anything for PCT. They accepted the fact that they'd lose a percentage of their gains - that kind of sucked.

Designer steroids aren't less suppressive- tell me Superdrol, or pherplex, or m1t isnt suppressive

 

[HereToStudy]

Had bloods done 30 days after mdrol PULSE with otc pct and test levels were fine... more than fine actually. But the LDL levels were waaaay high. All I used for pct was DIM and terrestris. But we all know methyls do this. Sadly my doc didn't mark estradiol in my test so who knows how that was. I had itchy nips the whole way throght the pulse.

Hey if I get bloods done after my 12 weeks of test and PCT with ralox + trs maybe that will change some minds. I will modify the dosage of ralox if I can get some advice on how I should do it. That's cool if PP wants to shed some light on the subject. Or if anybody else is in the know.

Thanks for confirming big, no test for thombosis. Guess the only test is having one... and if anybody is confused(thrombosis or deep vein thrombosis(DVT) = blood clot) another possible side effect is pulmonary embolism whish is a clot in the lung)

No idea personally on the ralox, officially we tend to find torem the serm of choice. But rather than trying to just give you a google answer, I'll ask around PP for you.

 

[jbryand101b]

no way dude i'm DONE with PH's. my LDL is messed up hardcore right now. It's only straight up test inj for me in the future.

testosterone is a pro hormone btw.
just saying...
:usa2:

 

[steakboy]

Lol rage post.

Anyway let's stay on track. The topic is potential risk with current SERMs and clotting. So far none of us have heard of this happening in the BB community but is there any risk possible? Eric from PP has some interesting information available. If anybody can provide some scientific evidence in the way of medical documentation to back this up...

Its already well known that most all SERMs cause clotting and other issues but the evidence is presented in longer term patients.

My original question was how we can mitigate potential risks with some other options. Im willing to try these other options and provide bloodwork for effectiveness, but cannot provide proof that the new method will prevent or reduce risk of clotting. (If method includes any use of a SERM)

 

[madmonkey]

This is silly. SERMs like estrogen can cause blood clots etc but it is a very rare side effect. Its extremely beneficial effect on HDL cholesterol levels pretty much offsets vascular / heart risks especially for people that use it after AAS. Check out your lipid profile after say a superdrol cycle - if your doctor was so concerned about using SERMs he would probably have killed himself to see almost double digit LDL/HDL ratios. If you are so concerned about your risk for deep vein thrombosis after a month on a SERM then maybe use asprin (you shouldn't have to). Women with breast cancer take tamoxifen for upto 5 years with minimal side effects. They only stop after 5 years because of increased uterine cancer risk (raloxifen was developed for this reason).

If I had to design the perfect drug to fix the damage done by AAS it would be tamoxifen. It acts as a antagonist of ER in the brain restoring the HPTA axis rapidly, acts as an agonist in the liver helping with cholesterol, antagonist in the breast preventing gyno etc. As mentioned before AAS use is many times more dangerous than SERMs. SERMs are the theoretically perfect PCT drug with a proven safety and efficacy record. That being said, I think that they are still powerful drugs and need to used sparingly and in a well researched manner.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Lol rage post.

Anyway let's stay on track. The topic is potential risk with current SERMs and clotting. So far none of us have heard of this happening in the BB community but is there any risk possible? Eric from PP has some interesting information available. If anybody can provide some scientific evidence in the way of medical documentation to back this up...

Its already well known that most all SERMs cause clotting and other issues but the evidence is presented in longer term patients.

My original question was how we can mitigate potential risks with some other options. Im willing to try these other options and provide bloodwork for effectiveness, but cannot provide proof that the new method will prevent or reduce risk of clotting. (If method includes any use of a SERM)

I wonder when a steroid user that frequently runs PCT becomes a long term user. Depending on the length of cycles, if someone runs 3 or 4 short cycles a year, with 3 or 4 PCTs with SERMs... that adds up. 12 to 16 weeks of SERM usage.

People who use OTC PCT often just use the wrong kinds which causes everyone to think OTC is not going to work. Yes, if you use a 30 or 40 bottle of some random OTC PCT, it won't do much. IMO, nothing is going to be more effective than the TRS. It covers all the bases in a very straightforward way. No proprietary blends, no hidden ingredients. It's all up front and quality.

Also, the older one gets the harder it is to recover. Then they might NEED a pharmacological PCT.

I'm not trying to demonize SERMs. I usually recommend them for 6 week or longer cycles. Just to be on the face side HPTA wise. If people don't want adverse side effects, they probably shouldn't screw with their hormones anyway. :biggthumpup:

 

[HondaV65]

I think one key point that folks are missing here ... is that - these studies include populations of cancer patients - who may not be in the best of physical condition when the drug is administered anyway.

Anyone seen a study on healthy individuals and their reactions to the SERMS?

 

[HereToStudy]

You do realize that Eric Potratz might, just maybe, have some vested incentive to steer people away from the use of a SERM and into the use of his OTC products? While his articles are interesting and filled with relevant facts and compelling, educated arguments against the use of SERMs, I have read many of them and find them to be somewhat bias toward the use of something he sells rather than being completely objective. While I like and use some PP products, I would never support the use of their products, or any OTC products, alone for PCT. In fact, I believe Eric endorses the use of a moderate SERM in conjunction with his OTC products. This is the same approach I take. Perhaps you should dig up that article.

Take a look, accusing Eric of writing articles only to sell products is not accurate, do we carry a product for everything mentioned here?

 

[HereToStudy]

I am not accusing him of any wrong doing. Rather, I am suggesting that many of his research articles circle back to some product that PP manufactures. As mentioned above, I find Eric's articles to be very informative. However, in almost every article I have read, Eric also takes a position which is one that redirects the reader to a product he sells and supports his position. Have you read his "Educational Articles" yourself? In every one, there is a link to one of his products.

I am not suggesting that Eric is wrong for taking this approach. He has a vested interest and passion for his products and the position he takes is usually supported by a plethera of evidence. I can't blame the guy for that. However, I still maintain that people shouldn't take everything in those articles at face value, or as objective evidence, and that there could be potential for bias, considering he makes his living selling OTC PCT products, as well as other supplements.

People should consider Eric's articles as good information, however, they should also look outside of the Primordial Performance library when assessing whether or not to use a SERM.

Fair enough. I always recommend people to research until they can't possibly find anymore information, so no argument there. With the articles, however, I would state that it is obvious there would be a connection to products we sell, that is why he produces products he believes in. But not all articles are in fact related to our products. Steroid profiles on steroids we never released, hCG article (the Toco-8 and Test Boost link are supplemental).

 

[steakboy]

I think the risk of a possibly fatal side effect can be lessened by a smarter PCT. Now this makes the argument of "if you don't like side effects from substance z then don't do substance y" a moot point. Its not hypocritical to say you don't want to DIE from your pct.

Im wondering if the lessened dosage in conjuction with other methods actually lessens risk? I mean to say is clotting dosage dependant or length of time dependant? Also, is there less risk of cycling the drug? I have read some information from a clinical trial that HRT patients have exhibited clotting past the 5 year mark.

As a side note... can I use ralox or torem like tamox for intra-cycle gyno flare ups?

 

[ryansm]

I am not accusing him of any wrong doing. Rather, I am suggesting that many of his research articles circle back to some product that PP manufactures. As mentioned above, I find Eric's articles to be very informative. However, in almost every article I have read, Eric also takes a position which is one that redirects the reader to a product he sells and supports his position. Have you read his "Educational Articles" yourself? In every one, there is a link to one of his products.

I am not suggesting that Eric is wrong for taking this approach. He has a vested interest and passion for his products and the position he takes is usually supported by a plethera of evidence. I can't blame the guy for that. However, I still maintain that people shouldn't take everything in those articles at face value, or as objective evidence, and that there could be potential for bias, considering he makes his living selling OTC PCT products, as well as other supplements.

People should consider Eric's articles as good information, however, they should also look outside of the Primordial Performance library when assessing whether or not to use a SERM.

Well yes you are correct, however he is giving alternatives that he developed specifically based on the research done in those studies such as the Darkside article. Not every supplement company is out to just propagate sales based on pseudo-science or trying to make a quick buck. PP actually wants to help their customers, it's why we use all natural ingredients, and post educational articles on the dangers and proper use of some of these "supplements."

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

As a side note... can I use ralox or torem like tamox for intra-cycle gyno flare ups?

Depends on the compound you're running. Nolva can upregulate progestin receptors, making you more succeptible to gyno. As for the two you mentioned, I'm not sure if those affect receptors in that way. If not, then that would be fine.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[steakboy]

Let's be real...for a 12-week cycle of Testosterone or Deca Durabolin, using OTC products is not the most preferred PCT. Rather, the most preferred PCT would include a SERM.

i agree that lengthy cycles require a SERM, but would there be a better way of using it?

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

I think 100+ mg of clomid for longer than a few days is overkill. I run it at 100mg for the first 3 or 4 days, drop it to 50mg for a couple weeks, then 35mg for a couple weeks. As far as HPTA and such I recover very fast, even after harsh cycles. 150mg for a week seems overboard.

I agree with a moderately dosed serm with quality otc for a good pct.

 

[steakboy]

My first cycle included clomid and nolvadex both dosed higher than they probably should have been. Those clomid blues made me wanna stab a puppy...

Im gonna try something new this time around and i'll post current blood values and ending for whatever I go with. Probably hcg during and shortly after and the pct will be either ralox or torem dosed lower than what's been the recommended amount around the boards+ an otc product.

 

[ryansm]

I whole-heartedly agree with this, and beleive that Eric's articles are written in a manner that explains and supports his position and the reasons he beleives his products work in the manner they are intended. Again, I don't blame him for this. I applaud him for this.

However, there is lots of information available that supports positions contrary to Eric's regarding using SERMs. It would only be responsible of any user to consider other, relevant information in determining if a SERM is the best approach to their PCT and whether they are willing to accept the risks associated with using a SERM (which for harsher cycle baffles me as to why someone wouldn't). Let's be real...for a 12-week cycle of Testosterone or Deca Durabolin, using OTC products is not the most preferred PCT. Rather, the most preferred PCT would include a SERM.

Completely agree, and my opinion is that yes a SERM is always needed, however using OTC PCT protocols like the TRS, which I believe is the best option, can be used to minimize the amount of a SERM needed.

 

[steakboy]

Alrighty... i'm trying to formulate how i'm going to do my PCT here so start throwing in some input.
I've decided to use Toremifene (because of availability and price)

weeks 1-12 400mg/wk test cyp

weeks 1-15 arimidex 1mg ed

weeks 10-15 hcg 250iu (eod subq)YES 250 not 2500, i've read that people have been severely overdosing this because they base it off of studies done on 80 year old men with LH desensitization.

weeks 15-18 (yes 3 weeks) 40mg Toremifene

weeks 15-19 OTC product yet unnamed

 

[needtogetmuscle]

I agree that the risk of any potential side effect can be mitigated by using a PCT that is well designed. However, it does not make the arguement a moot point. PCT has become a standard component of the modern steroid cycle. Like it or not, the best current available therapy for recovery is a SERM. Using a SERM is an inherent risk of any well desigend steroid cycle (which itself poses more potential risk), in that the risks associated with not using a SERM outweigh the risks of using a SERM.

So, how is it not hypocritical of one to accept the risks associated with using a steroid, yet they are not willing to accept the risk of using a SERM to mitigate the risks associated with of discontinuing the use of said steroid? So, let me get this right...people are willing to DIE from using a steroid, yet they are NOT willing to DIE from their PCT (which carries far less risk than the steroid itself)?

I do beleive Torem can be used in a similar manner. Personally, I prefer Clomid, but I beleive lots of Nolvadex users are transitioning to Fareston/Torem as their preferred SERM. I've rad nothing but good things about it.

Do you happen to have a study on hand that has the following.

1. Shows that the person was shut down and had low tesosterone do to a steroid cycle to start.

2. The study must also show that " after not well on" his testosterone levels were back to normal and stayed normal levels after he got off the clomid and nolvadex..

I am just wondering if you have a study at all that meets this criteria? If you do please post it for me I have been looking for a wile for this. If it does not meet the criteria exactly to a T then don't bother posting it. I am looking for a study that shows these two things and these two things only. THank you so much.

 

[Chubbinmuffin]

Good call on the hcg. I think people go way overboard with that stuff too.

 

[steakboy]

Do you happen to have a study on hand that has the following.

1. Shows that the person was shut down and had low tesosterone do to a steroid cycle to start.

2. The study must also show that " after not well on" his testosterone levels were back to normal and stayed normal levels after he got off the clomid and nolvadex..

I am just wondering if you have a study at all that meets this criteria? If you do please post it for me I have been looking for a wile for this. If it does not meet the criteria exactly to a T then don't bother posting it. I am looking for a study that shows these two things and these two things only. THank you so much.

unsure this exists? do doctors prescribe SERMs to hypogonadal men?

anyway... lowering adex to .5mg daily. additionally... should i run the stuff through the WHOLE cycle? btw... i get itchy nips on superdrol which doesn't aromatize.

 

[steakboy]

alright, one last change to my cycle.

gonna start my AI 2 weeks into my cycle, assess any possible estrogen sides, possibly dose .5mg-1mg adex E3D mid cycle (week 5-6) if everything is kosher. If i can find a happy median so i don't LOSE potential gains, and still control estrogen that's where i'd like to be. I believe i'll be starting tomorrow... I'll update this thread as the gains start coming in.

my effing xbox just RRODed so now i'm in a toss up for TRS or a new xbox. GGRRRRR

 

[Alwayssee333]

Honestly and not to offend anyone, If you are willing to take the risk of using an AAS (anabolic androgenic steroid) you should be willing to accept the risks of using a SERM for PCT. In addition, the SERM would not be not be widely used in the medical field unless the positive effects greatly outweighed the negative. You take risks walking to your bathroom in the morning, driving to the bank, and of course... working out with heavy weights in the gym. Everything we do is a calculated risk, so make your best calculated decisions and stop worrying about the outcomes. Have a good PCT.

 

[Alwayssee333]

It just appears that some people out there are obviously approaching their cycle with a "PHEW!!! I made it through my cycle, Alive!, but dammit I have to run another risk now and use this other drug that doesn't make me buff, but could harm me." type of attitude. Well..LOL,this is primitive behavior and thinking. A cycle is obviously not a one step process. It's like stealing an apple and standing there with it. Now running could be risky, but its a hell of a lot less risky after you consider that you just stole an apple. Gaining the apple is worthless if you don't get to keep it, and by not keeping it, you ran an unnecessary risk. If you are planning on running a risk to obtain something, make sure you are doing whatever is within your power to keep it. Considering, of course, that the risk of such is equal or lesser than the risk of obtaining it. Such risks should be assessed before completing step one.

 

[steakboy]

Honestly and not to offend anyone, If you are willing to take the risk of using an AAS (anabolic androgenic steroid) you should be willing to accept the risks of using a SERM for PCT. In addition, the SERM would not be not be widely used in the medical field unless the positive effects greatly outweighed the negative. You take risks walking to your bathroom in the morning, driving to the bank, and of course... working out with heavy weights in the gym. Everything we do is a calculated risk, so make your best calculated decisions and stop worrying about the outcomes. Have a good PCT.

i figured everybody would take it like this, and its not what i'm getting at. ok, seriously, do you have to worry about testosterone injections giving you a stroke? ok, maybe if you mainline that sucker up an artery but besides that, the risks of testosterone are fairly low. i realize there's tons of AAS out there, all with their different line up of sides, but i was really trying to limit it down to test. seems to be the safest one for you anyway... low risk of liver failure, estro sides are the only real risk... which is where more of the toxic things come in when trying to control it.

once again, so we're all clear, i'm looking to minimize risk. i know i'll have to do a SERM, but I want to make for damn sure i'm using it as conservatively as possible.

anyway, i just took my third pin today. no real estrogenic sides quite yet so i'm holding off on the AI for now. gains are creeping in slowly... pumps are good, libido is slightly better than average. one weird thing... i find myself day dreaming about every girl i haven't had yet instead of focusing on the girl i have. right now all i want is that STRANGE.

 

[Grambo]

Just a few numbers of one study with a pretty big sample size ( Yes this is in women but research shows men and women tolerate it pretty much equally). Just for ****s and giggles

Tamoxifen Adverse Reaction in NSABP B-14 Study
Adverse reaction

Tamoxifen(n = 1,422) Placebo (n = 1,437)

Cardiovascular
DVT 0.8% 0.2%
Hematologic
Thrombocytopenia 2% 1%
Hepatic
Increased AST 5% 3%
Increased bilirubin 2% 1%
Renal
Increased creatinine 2% 1%
Respiratory
PE 0.5% 0.2%



This study is over a 5 year period.


I am a Toremifene fan myself.

 

[Grambo]

And to be fair this note is with the 5 year study.

All other adverse reactions occurred with similar frequency in the 2 treatment groups, with the exception of thrombotic events, a higher incidence was seen in tamoxifen-treated patients (through 5 years, 1.7% vs 0.4%).

And another study done over the course of 2 years showed a 10% vs 3% increase in thrombocytopenia, an observation of borderline statistical significance. (Was a smaller study I believe)