Questions about PCT

[Liftingstud]

Let me start by staying I have used a few of todays PH and DS: SD, Hdrol, old 1AD w/ 4AD, Epidrol and Tren. I have had successful cycles with good recovery using PCT. I was just thinking on how proper PCT should be run and wanted to brainstorm some ideas..

Usually for these "legal" AAS most people use a SERM for PCT to help restore there natty levels. Also some have used an AI. Some have started with a high dose of the AI then tapered but other advocate a ramp up then taper. Then to go one further some start the SERM day 1 PCT then starting week 3 add in the AI and then do one of the following tech I described above.

What got me started thinking about this was I was thinking about switching over to the "darker side" to take some stress of my liver with all these methyls. So as I was researching cycles I noticed something interesting...

When people run "steroid cycles" they often run a AI with the cycle, often Arimidex EOD depending on the cycle. And this makes sense because anytime you raise your Test above baseline you will get some conversion to estrogen which can lead to bloating and unwanted estro side effects. You dont want to eliminate estrogen because that can lead to problems too. But you want to inhibit some of the conversion.

What happens when Test is way higher than estrogen in the body and it cant convert the extra test into estrogen it will up regulate the number of estrogen receptors... Hence why for PCT you need and SERM. To block these receptors while your body restores its natty test production. Some take Clomid to help jump start this process at the beginning of PCT.

So my question come... Is my thinking correct on these issues? Should we be using an AI when we run these designer steroid (DS) cycles? I know some say they are "mild" and not like these hardcore cycles but still even if considered mild shouldnt we still be very safe about what we are doing to help minimize side effects? I know lots of these DS say they do not convert to estrogen but we all know this is not true... Yes maybe the orginal compound does not but what about the metabolites?

And I wonder why people say you can get away with an AI containing compound (might have a test booster included) for PCT. If you increase your test by taking ANY legal or not AAS and do not use an AI on cycle when you finish your estrogen levels will also be increased. It is just simple human physiology... you body is always trying to create homeostasis. So now you go into PCT with high test (possibly some or all shut down of your natty test) and higher estrogen levels. What is an AI going to do? The answer I see is nothing to this already high level of estrogen. Yes you will prevent further conversion from test to estrogen. But now you have high estrogen levels free to cause problems. Hence the need for a SERM during PCT. Correct???
But one thing the higher level of estrogen would cause would be used to jump start your body's production of natty test again to acheive that homeostasis again, but this process would only start once the clearance of the AAS has occured and test levels are low and estrogen levels are high.

So maybe we should used a moderate dose of AI while using these "legal" AAS while on cycle to control estrogen levels, but not eliminate estrogen. Then when you go into PCT you have high test and mod estrogen... then once the AAS clears you have low test due to some shut down of natty production and mod estrogen... then you used a SERM to block the receptor and use the mod levels of estrogen to increase your natty test production back to normal levels. Also you can use a natty test booster to help with this process.

I dont know I was just thinking out loud. Not sure if I understand all the physiology correctly so feel free to correct me. But was just curious and trying to throw some info out there to start some chatter. And help design a better PCT for all. What you guys think?

 

[EasyEJL]

Usually for these "legal" AAS most people use a SERM for PCT to help restore there natty levels. Also some have used an AI. Some have started with a high dose of the AI then tapered but other advocate a ramp up then taper. Then to go one further some start the SERM day 1 PCT then starting week 3 add in the AI and then do one of the following tech I described above.

yeah, broscience has come up with all sorts of crazy ass ideas over time

What got me started thinking about this was I was thinking about switching over to the "darker side" to take some stress of my liver with all these methyls. So as I was researching cycles I noticed something interesting...

When people run "steroid cycles" they often run a AI with the cycle, often Arimidex EOD depending on the cycle. And this makes sense because anytime you raise your Test above baseline you will get some conversion to estrogen which can lead to bloating and unwanted estro side effects. You dont want to eliminate estrogen because that can lead to problems too. But you want to inhibit some of the conversion.

all of this is correct so far

What happens when Test is way higher than estrogen in the body and it cant convert the extra test into estrogen it will up regulate the number of estrogen receptors... Hence why for PCT you need and SERM. To block these receptors while your body restores its natty test production. Some take Clomid to help jump start this process at the beginning of PCT.

Here is where you start to go wrong. the estrogen receptors would only upregulate if there wasn't enough estrogen to bind to them. So if you use an AI reasonably on cycle, and there is still some estrogen, this wont happen.

So my question come... Is my thinking correct on these issues? Should we be using an AI when we run these designer steroid (DS) cycles? I know some say they are "mild" and not like these hardcore cycles but still even if considered mild shouldnt we still be very safe about what we are doing to help minimize side effects? I know lots of these DS say they do not convert to estrogen but we all know this is not true... Yes maybe the orginal compound does not but what about the metabolites?

Non aromatizing is non aromatizing. So using an AI on one of these cycles all you will do is crash estrogen to 0 and make things worse.

And I wonder why people say you can get away with an AI containing compound (might have a test booster included) for PCT. If you increase your test by taking ANY legal or not AAS and do not use an AI on cycle when you finish your estrogen levels will also be increased. It is just simple human physiology... you body is always trying to create homeostasis. So now you go into PCT with high test (possibly some or all shut down of your natty test) and higher estrogen levels. What is an AI going to do? The answer I see is nothing to this already high level of estrogen. Yes you will prevent further conversion from test to estrogen. But now you have high estrogen levels free to cause problems. Hence the need for a SERM during PCT. Correct???

Heres where you go WAY wrong "If you increase your test by taking ANY legal or not AAS and do not use an AI on cycle when you finish your estrogen levels will also be increased. " Other than taking testosterone (or 4AD) NONE of the anabolics increase testosterone levels. And only aromatizing ones cause estrogen levels to go up. What the AI will do is lower estrogen, which is one of your body's signals to produce more testosterone.

But one thing the higher level of estrogen would cause would be used to jump start your body's production of natty test again to acheive that homeostasis again, but this process would only start once the clearance of the AAS has occured and test levels are low and estrogen levels are high.

A higher level than normal of estrogen would inhibit testosterone production as your body would want to avoid driving estrogen higher.

So maybe we should used a moderate dose of AI while using these "legal" AAS while on cycle to control estrogen levels, but not eliminate estrogen. Then when you go into PCT you have high test and mod estrogen... then once the AAS clears you have low test due to some shut down of natty production and mod estrogen... then you used a SERM to block the receptor and use the mod levels of estrogen to increase your natty test production back to normal levels. Also you can use a natty test booster to help with this process.

The only part of this that works is the taking the natty test booster. I like starting a natty booster the last week of a cycle, so it has time to start to get into system and get up to full operation.

 

[Liftingstud]

Here is where you start to go wrong. the estrogen receptors would only upregulate if there wasn't enough estrogen to bind to them. So if you use an AI reasonably on cycle, and there is still some estrogen, this wont happen.

Okay so only if you totally kill or lower it significantly estrogen will it increase the receptors.

Non aromatizing is non aromatizing. So using an AI on one of these cycles all you will do is crash estrogen to 0 and make things worse.

Even the metabolites...? So when these non aromatizing get broken down they dont loose that ability? I mean SD wasnt suppose to aromatize and I bloated like a mofo!

Heres where you go WAY wrong "If you increase your test by taking ANY legal or not AAS and do not use an AI on cycle when you finish your estrogen levels will also be increased. " Other than taking testosterone (or 4AD) NONE of the anabolics increase testosterone levels. And only aromatizing ones cause estrogen levels to go up. What the AI will do is lower estrogen, which is one of your body's signals to produce more testosterone.

Okay gotcha... That makes sense... except you last statment, "...estrogen, which is one of your body's signals to produce more testosterone" because of what you say later...

A higher level than normal of estrogen would inhibit testosterone production as your body would want to avoid driving estrogen higher.

Or did you mean as long is estrogen is within normal levels it will cause an increase in natty test production? And when it gets too high it will neg affect natty test production???

The only part of this that works is the taking the natty test booster. I like starting a natty booster the last week of a cycle, so it has time to start to get into system and get up to full operation.

Okay... So since I have been smarter with my PCT than the first cycle I can here is what I normally do for PCT

week 1: 40mg Novla, test booster
week 2: 20mg Novla, test booster
week 3: 20mg Novla, test booster, start AI at highest dose
week 4: 10mg Novla, test booster, tapper AI
week 5: test booster, keep tappering AI
week 6: test booster, even lower tapper of AI

Just wondering if it should be tweaked?

Also possibly looking at the One... saw you were an AN rep... love you guys and SOOOO generous with the samples at the Arnold!!! An NC boy has to support and NC company!!!

 

[EasyEJL]

Even the metabolites...? So when these non aromatizing get broken down they dont loose that ability? I mean SD wasnt suppose to aromatize and I bloated like a mofo!

estrogen isn't the only cause of bloating

Or did you mean as long is estrogen is within normal levels it will cause an increase in natty test production? And when it gets too high it will neg affect natty test production???

if estrogen levels are low it will cause your body to try and increase of test levels, thats precisely how Novedex XT works to raise test levels. Your body uses its creation of test to control how much estrogen is in your body, as it has no way to directly control aromatase levels. If estrogen is too high it will cause a signal to produce less testosterone.

As far as the PCT goes, i dunno, my PCT feelings are different than many peoples. I have yet to use a SERM at all, as I feel they do more harm than good. When you are talking about 4 week cycles of nonaromatizing substances you generally aren't seeing max suppression till late in week 2, or later. So at most you've gone 2-3 weeks with low testosterone and that really isn't enough to cause resensitization of estrogen receptors from what i've seen. On a 3 week cycle of superdrol, I think PCTs like what you propose are more of the reason for "rebound gyno" than the superdrol itself If I was going to tweak it, i'd drop nolva to 10mg max, start the test booster at week 0 or -1, and drop the AI entirely for most oral cycles. or drop the nolva and use low dose AI only (but the specifics of dosing depend on the cycle)

I guess thats the other thing to mention too, the cycle itself has HUGE impact on PCT needs. A 3 week superdrol cycle is different than a 6 week estra prodienolone cycle, or a 5 week epistane cycle, or a 5 week cycle of The ONE.

 

[JOHNJESSICA20]

Some great insight here!

 

[Liftingstud]

estrogen isn't the only cause of bloating


if estrogen levels are low it will cause your body to try and increase of test levels, thats precisely how Novedex XT works to raise test levels. Your body uses its creation of test to control how much estrogen is in your body, as it has no way to directly control aromatase levels. If estrogen is too high it will cause a signal to produce less testosterone.

As far as the PCT goes, i dunno, my PCT feelings are different than many peoples. I have yet to use a SERM at all, as I feel they do more harm than good. When you are talking about 4 week cycles of nonaromatizing substances you generally aren't seeing max suppression till late in week 2, or later. So at most you've gone 2-3 weeks with low testosterone and that really isn't enough to cause resensitization of estrogen receptors from what i've seen. On a 3 week cycle of superdrol, I think PCTs like what you propose are more of the reason for "rebound gyno" than the superdrol itself If I was going to tweak it, i'd drop nolva to 10mg max, start the test booster at week 0 or -1, and drop the AI entirely for most oral cycles. or drop the nolva and use low dose AI only (but the specifics of dosing depend on the cycle)

I guess thats the other thing to mention too, the cycle itself has HUGE impact on PCT needs. A 3 week superdrol cycle is different than a 6 week estra prodienolone cycle, or a 5 week epistane cycle, or a 5 week cycle of The ONE.

Cool... Yeah, I under some human phsyiology from being a biology major and taking a grad level physiology class but not much test/estrogen stuff was discussed. So figure I would try and get some insight as to what was going on. I feel all too often people dont know whats going on.

So what your saying is estrogen is the main control for your body's test production? low it produces more in the hope that it will get converted by aromatase to estrogen... too high it shuts it down hopefully to lower the amount of estrogen? Am I understanding you?

So you feel most PCT for these non aromatizing substances is way over blown? Like I said was looking into doing my first 12 wk test cycle or just go with the The One. But understand these would be two completely different cycles. I love ANs products and figure this would be just as good as the nasty Drive/RPM/IGF-2 stack, gotta love it for a natty stack.

Being a PH to Methyl-test (I think thats the target compound) do you think there is the need to run a very low dose AI with The One? Or due to its structure it will not aromatize?

 

[EasyEJL]

So what your saying is estrogen is the main control for your body's test production? low it produces more in the hope that it will get converted by aromatase to estrogen... too high it shuts it down hopefully to lower the amount of estrogen? Am I understanding you?

I'm not sure its the main control for testosterone production, but it is one of the controls.

So you feel most PCT for these non aromatizing substances is way over blown? Like I said was looking into doing my first 12 wk test cycle or just go with the The One. But understand these would be two completely different cycles. I love ANs products and figure this would be just as good as the nasty Drive/RPM/IGF-2 stack, gotta love it for a natty stack.

Being a PH to Methyl-test (I think thats the target compound) do you think there is the need to run a very low dose AI with The One? Or due to its structure it will not aromatize?

Yeah, I just look at 50 years worth of Olympias and other bodybuilding + powerlifting competitions where they had steroids, but no SERMs. Unless you have existing gyno (which a cycle would be stupid) or previously had and are prone to gyno I think its generally unnecessary to use a serm. Is it valuable to have on hand in case you start to develop gyno? yes

And The ONE is a PH to DHT, so its at the end of the chain, it can't aromatize either

 

[nattydisaster]

Lots of good advice in this thread. Check out "The Perfect PCT" link in my signature for a nice summary.