My PCT "stash", what would you do

DLM5

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I'm 2 n half weeks from coming off my Tren Xtreme cycle. This is my first ever cycle, I'm 37 years old.
My cycle...
Tren 90/90/90/90/90/90
A.I. Cycle Support and Vitex, B-6 for prolaction, other regular supps..

I have a pile of PCT products.. Here they are..
Clomid 50MG/ML - 60ML
Toremifene 60MG/ML - 30ML ( not enough for 4 weeks of PCT )
Aromasin 10MG/ML - 30ML
Adex 1MG/ML - 30 ML
A.I. PCS - 1 bottle
6-OXO - 1 bottle
P.P's TRS - 1 bottle sustain, 1 tub Toco 8, 1 tub EndoAmp

My status... Well I don't feel shut down, but I'm sure I just can't tell. I'm able to tap the GF everyday and still shoot a good volume of gunk on her. This being my first cycle though, I have no idea how to judge my shutdown.
I've had no probs with my nips, I don't play with them and mind fcuk myself. My GF knows I'm on cycle and she thinks my nips look normal. If she touches my nips it doesn't bother me. So far so good on the nips.. Cycle has been great and a breeze so far.. I was up 12lbs on day 23 of the cycle..
I'd like some guys to give me their PCT they'd make from my stash for this cycle.

One of my idea's was this..
Clomid 100/100/50/50
Aromasin 10/10/10/10
P.P's TRS weeks 1-4
A.I PCS weeks 5-8 - 2 caps AM and 2 caps PM
 
Wilderbeast

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If you want to use a SERM for this PCT go with clomid as it is better suited for a progestin like tren. If you're going to use a SERM i prefer to run an AI concurrently. Adex at .25 to .5 mg ED or EOD should do fine (exemestane is better suited for on-cycle).

Clomid weeks 1-4 PCT
Anastrozole weeks 1-4(6) PCT
PCS / Sustain weeks 3-6 PCT

Note: Be sure to taper off of anastrozole at the end of PCT so you avoid any estrogen rebounding.
 
DLM5

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Thanks for your take, I could run the EndoAmp for a cort blocker if I went with your protocal. I have the clomid for the Tren, but some guys seem to think the Tore can be used as well.
I'm interested in getting anyones ideas who wants to chime in. I have my own ideas I've learned, but I can always learn something new if I keep a open mind.
 
Wilderbeast

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Torem really seems to be the new preferred SERM by many. If you want to try it out I would say go for it. I think alot of people are recovering fine with torem alone where they would have used a nolva/clomid combo before. As for the anti-cort, it's defiently not gonna hurt you to use one.
 

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I am doing a simiilar PCT next week..

Clomid 100/100/50/50
Stoked weeks 3-6

Should I also add Anastrozole? I dont think i will be able to get hold of it in time. Is there an alternative?
 
pistonpump

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you have been off for 2.5weeks and still havent PCTd? Am i reading that right?
 
pistonpump

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torem 90/60/60/30
PP TRS stack rec dose til out
week 4-7 PCS rec dose
 
crazyfool405

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thats soo much stuff for a tren Xtreme cycle

clomid PCS for this one (or save clomid for a diff one and use torem)

the clomid aromasin combo is awesome tho
 
silverSurfer

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I don't have access to a SERM so my PCT for the last 2 cycles of Xtreme Tren was as follows:
* AI's PCS
* P-5-P

I felt great after PCT, although I didn't get any blood work to prove I was fully recovered. I am also 37 yo.
 
pistonpump

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thats soo much stuff for a tren Xtreme cycle
well, agreed..... xtreme tren isnt that bad to wear you need a big pct but i figure since you have all these things you want the best pct possible. If you would like to save some things then a SERM and PCS would be the easiest route but certainly not the best you could do.
 
DLM5

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torem 90/60/60/30
PP TRS stack rec dose til out
week 4-7 PCS rec dose
Thanks for the feedback.
I like this idea. :bruce3: The other route I'd go will be like CF mentioned.
Question Piston, why no Aromatose Inhibitor? I know Eric from PP isn't to hip on a AI unless you used a compound that can aromatize.

This idea with either the Tore or Clomid for the SERM. Then the PP TRS stack gives me the cort blocker that I don't have to taper from the first day of PCT. The Sustain with the 7,8 Benzoflavone and resveratol stims the pituitary for LH and FSH release. The Toco-8 is supposed to increase the testies response to the LH & FSH.
Then the A.I. PCS makes a long PCT.
The catch, PP calls for a low dose of SERM with their TRS stack. I don't know if I trust that. I'd keep the SERM doses standard.
 
DLM5

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thats soo much stuff for a tren Xtreme cycle

clomid PCS for this one (or save clomid for a diff one and use torem)

the clomid aromasin combo is awesome tho
CF, ya i got enuff stuff to do 2 PCT's.. Never hurts to stock up, lol..
My other idea was more of your thinking. What do you think of this. Also help me understand why I never see any taper on the Aromasin, bcuz it's a suicide AI? Hows the doses look on this Bro, any tweaks you'd make I go this route?
Thanks.

Clomid 100/100/50/50
Aromasin 10/10/10/10
EndoAmo week 1-4 for cort blocker
A.I. PCS weeks 3-6
 
crazyfool405

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CF, ya i got enuff stuff to do 2 PCT's.. Never hurts to stock up, lol..
My other idea was more of your thinking. What do you think of this. Also help me understand why I never see any taper on the Aromasin, bcuz it's a suicide AI? Hows the doses look on this Bro, any tweaks you'd make I go this route?
Thanks.

Clomid 100/100/50/50
Aromasin 10/10/10/10
EndoAmo week 1-4 for cort blocker
A.I. PCS weeks 3-6
because 10mg of aromasin is equal to 20mg of aromasin in terms of getting you back to normal,

the estrogen inhibition isnt as much as adex or letro, more like 6bromo, at reall high doses it can have some androgenic activity, but it will not hurt your recovery.

aromsin also lowers SHBG and increases igf 1. these are also important in the recovery phase.

what you have above looks good, i LOVE aromasin.
 
DLM5

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because 10mg of aromasin is equal to 20mg of aromasin in terms of getting you back to normal,

the estrogen inhibition isnt as much as adex or letro, more like 6bromo, at reall high doses it can have some androgenic activity, but it will not hurt your recovery.

aromsin also lowers SHBG and increases igf 1. these are also important in the recovery phase.

what you have above looks good, i LOVE aromasin.
Reps on the way BRO!!
Thanks for helping a bro out..
 
pistonpump

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the pcs i just added there is to keep you going natty after the serm and trs are tapering off, the pcs just keeps your test climbing imo. after the standard 4 week pct i like to remain on some sort of natty test booster or ai like product for good measure.
 
DLM5

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torem 90/60/60/30
PP TRS stack rec dose til out
week 4-7 PCS rec dose
Thanks for the feedback.
I like this idea. :bruce3: The other route I'd go will be like CF mentioned.
Question Piston, why no Aromatose Inhibitor? I know Eric from PP isn't to hip on a AI unless you used a compound that can aromatize.

This idea with either the Tore or Clomid for the SERM. Then the PP TRS stack gives me the cort blocker that I don't have to taper from the first day of PCT. The Sustain with the 7,8 Benzoflavone and resveratol stims the pituitary for LH and FSH release. The Toco-8 is supposed to increase the testies response to the LH & FSH.
Then the A.I. PCS makes a long PCT.
The catch, PP calls for a low dose of SERM with their TRS stack. I don't know if I trust that. I'd keep the SERM doses standard.
the pcs i just added there is to keep you going natty after the serm and trs are tapering off, the pcs just keeps your test climbing imo. after the standard 4 week pct i like to remain on some sort of natty test booster or ai like product for good measure.
What I was gettin at is.. why did you not suggest a AI to run with the SERM with the PCT you laid out above for me? The whole AI ran inverse to the SERM thing?... ala.. DR. D.

I know Eric from PP is not a AI fan for PCT unless you use a compound that aromatizes. It seems most of these 5a reduced compounds aren't supposed to aromatize, from what i know. Eric says your estrogen is low at the end of your cycle and you need estrogen, not to supress it. At least that's what I gather he's saying, and it seems his approach is diff than most peeps. For arguments sake say he's right about low levels of estrogen when you come off cycle. During PCT when test levels rise back up suddenly, then you can possibly have conversion of the test to excess estrogen?
So wouldn't you need to run a AI at some point in PCT? I guess i need to go back and read Eric's stuff over again, see if I missed sumthin.
The diff views and sorting them can be confusing..
Anyhow Bro, help me out here. Throw me your take would ya.
Thanks
 
DLM5

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This comes from a write up from Eric at PP, it's only the part dealing with AI's..

quote:

Over Use of Anti-Estrogens


Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.

More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.

Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -

Lower Sex Drive / Erectile dysfunction
Joint Pain
Lower HDL levels
Increased Risk of Heart Disease
Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.
end quote:
 
pistonpump

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basically i have not been using AIs for PCT for some time...i only used 6oxo during my first cycle. I believe the same thing that you have posted Eric saying and thats why i stick to Serms because they allow estrogen to be produced while keeping them out of the receptors (gyno prevention) Serms already effect my libido negatively and adding in a true AI will only make that worse plus you get bad skin, joint pain, worse cholesterol, etc. Stick with estrogen modulators that keep good estro circulating, a good one i have used is I3c. Ingredients in sustain are said to act the same, they are not inhibiting estrogen aromatase but simply put they keep estro in check and the good estro around. I dont mind using a mild AI for its test boosting characteristics once i finish my true PCT, as a natty run so to speak and for good measure should any rebound come from the SERM, which shouldnt happen if tapered down right.
 
DLM5

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Right on, thanks for the reply..
So we have two camps with BRO"s on the thought on the AI in PCT...
I'll say you got some sharp minds in both camps..
It's all sorta way over my head.. I just gotta choose a route and run with...
 
pistonpump

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youll catch on with research and experience. Sometimes you gotta just see what works for you.
 
DLM5

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Ya I do alot of research, but it still can be hard to get my head around.. one of the links crazyfool threw me was over my head for me being able to comprehend.. I got part of it, but not all of it for sure, lol..
It seems as if guys developed the AI route to fight estro rebound gnyo.. some guys even after they reverse taper the AI from the SERM, then they taper the AI back down after the SERM is done for a few weeks longer.. a long steady estrogen control..
At least I'm set up with the stuff do PCT both ways..
 
Eric Potratz

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Hey guys…

I didn’t get a change to read the whole thread… just got requested over here.

The doses of SERM’s you listed will be counterproductive to what you’re trying to achieve. I have no studies to reference here because no studies use doses as high as 100mg/day of clomid. I just speak from personal experience and years of counseling hundreds of bodybuilders and athletes going through PCT.

Stick with 25mg/day of the clomid or 40mg/day of the toremifene and stack this with the TRS… or don’t use the TRS… you will recover better with the low/moderate dose of SERM either way.

Anyway, Im subscibed now if you have more questions DL

-Eric
 
DLM5

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Hey guys…

I didn’t get a change to read the whole thread… just got requested over here.

The doses of SERM’s you listed will be counterproductive to what you’re trying to achieve. I have no studies to reference here because no studies use doses as high as 100mg/day of clomid. I just speak from personal experience and years of counseling hundreds of bodybuilders and athletes going through PCT.

Stick with 25mg/day of the clomid or 40mg/day of the toremifene and stack this with the TRS… or don’t use the TRS… you will recover better with the low/moderate dose of SERM either way.

Anyway, Im subscibed now if you have more questions DL

-Eric
Eric, thanks for your input on this thread. I have a few more questions I hope you could educate me on. I hope I don't ask to much, but I ask bcuz your opinions are a contrasting view to the masses in general.
How is the high dose of SERM's like 100mgs of Clomid, or 90mgs of Toremifene counterproductive? Are thier studies showing a point of diminishing return in stimulating LH and FSH over a certain mg dose?
It seems like so many guys run high doses of their SERM's, what are we missing or not getting? New guys like me tend to go with the flow, and the flow is high dosed SERM's for the most part.
Last I'd like to ask about AI's.. for a non aromatizing compound you don't recomend a AI.. once again it seems most guys do the AI ran inverse to the SERM thing, then taper the AI after the SERM is done.. the whole attempt to control rebound gyno.. What's your personal thoughts on the AI ran inverse to the SERM, do you feel it delays your body finding it's own hormonal balance. It would seem it sets you up for some estrogen rebound even with a AI tapered, since estrogen is being supressed and testosterone is not?
 
Eric Potratz

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Eric, thanks for your input on this thread. I have a few more questions I hope you could educate me on. I hope I don't ask to much, but I ask bcuz your opinions are a contrasting view to the masses in general.
How is the high dose of SERM's like 100mgs of Clomid, or 90mgs of Toremifene counterproductive? Are thier studies showing a point of diminishing return in stimulating LH and FSH over a certain mg dose?
It seems like so many guys run high doses of their SERM's, what are we missing or not getting? New guys like me tend to go with the flow, and the flow is high dosed SERM's for the most part.
Last I'd like to ask about AI's.. for a non aromatizing compound you don't recomend a AI.. once again it seems most guys do the AI ran inverse to the SERM thing, then taper the AI after the SERM is done.. the whole attempt to control rebound gyno.. What's your personal thoughts on the AI ran inverse to the SERM, do you feel it delays your body finding it's own hormonal balance. It would seem it sets you up for some estrogen rebound even with a AI tapered, since estrogen is being supressed and testosterone is not?
No, that’s the problem. There are no studies showing that higher doses of SERMs are more effective, but there is clear evidence that higher doses will cause side-effects, such as what Ive discussed in my article here –


Guy take high doses of SERM’s, sometimes even as much as say 300mg/day of Clomid, because these compounds are cheap and the guys just follow the more-is-better mentality. It’s a problem, but I think people are slowing going back down to the more reasonable dose range, and realizing that SERM’s are fairly toxic compounds that should be avoided when possible.

As far as the AI, I generally don’t recommend an AI for PCT because estrogen is generally suppressed rather than elevated, especially with all these fast clearing, non-aromatizing or progestin based designer steroids on the market. For most of you guys, AI’s do more harm than good during PCT.

Using an AI during this PCT (even during SERM therapy) is probably not necessary either. Besides, AI’s such as Arimidex and Letrozol can cause estrogen rebound by themselves. On the other hand if you use an steroidial based (non-rebound) AI like exemestane or formestane for PCT you risk direct interaction with the AR and possible direct inhibition of testosterone production. In most cases, I’d say it’s best to avoid an AI for PCT unless you are running something that is causing major estrogen formation, such as high-dose hCG.

-Eric
 
crazyfool405

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No, that’s the problem. There are no studies showing that higher doses of SERMs are more effective, but there is clear evidence that higher doses will cause side-effects, such as what Ive discussed in my article here –


Guy take high doses of SERM’s, sometimes even as much as say 300mg/day of Clomid, because these compounds are cheap and the guys just follow the more-is-better mentality. It’s a problem, but I think people are slowing going back down to the more reasonable dose range, and realizing that SERM’s are fairly toxic compounds that should be avoided when possible.

As far as the AI, I generally don’t recommend an AI for PCT because estrogen is generally suppressed rather than elevated, especially with all these fast clearing, non-aromatizing or progestin based designer steroids on the market. For most of you guys, AI’s do more harm than good during PCT.

Using an AI during this PCT (even during SERM therapy) is probably not necessary either. Besides, AI’s such as Arimidex and Letrozol can cause estrogen rebound by themselves. On the other hand if you use an steroidial based (non-rebound) AI like exemestane or formestane for PCT you risk direct interaction with the AR and possible direct inhibition of testosterone production. In most cases, I’d say it’s best to avoid an AI for PCT unless you are running something that is causing major estrogen formation, such as high-dose hCG.

-Eric
i really like reading your posts eric, but i know we but heads on a few things here, and i dont reeally wanna start debating, i just want to show other ways of looking at things so here it goes

Ive seen studies with 50-100mg of clomid in hypogonadal men, and the increase in testosterone is quite signifigant, if i remember correctly there is a thread on AM showin us his clomid results and his test levels in the upper 900s i believe.

As far as AIs are concerned it does lower HDL and libido and dry joints, however the results for Cholesterol in a few studies i have posted show little to no effect on cholesterol for Adex and Aromasin (dose dependant and user dependant of course) however theres actually an increase in LH and FSH which are important as well after a cycle as for the most part they are low, as well as testosterone.

with regaurds to AIs in PCT, with 5a reduced steroids acting as a mild AI, lowers E2 somewhat but the fact remains that there is a HIGHER amount of E2 after cycle then testosterone. this effects the feedback loop thus making recovery harder. SERM will increase the T levels and keep E2 the same (for the most part). i would rather lower e2 while raising T levels making recovery a tad faster.

Aromasin (being steroidal) is the only one that MAY have androgenic sides, but none are shown at the dose that we use. it also decreases SHBG slightly (which SERMS raise) and increase IGF1 slightly which SERMs decrease (torem and Nolva mor so then clomid), and it increase LH and FSH by about 40% in one study i found.

just my .02
 
zacklewis

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What would you typically dose most serms at Primordial after an OTC cycle -
 
crazyfool405

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Restoration of plasma testosterone levels in uremic men with clomiphene citrate.
Lim VS, Fang VS.

Five men with chronic renal failure and symptoms suggestive to androgen deficiency were treated with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) at a dose of 100 mg/day for a period of 5 to 12 months. The treatment resulted uniformly in increased libido, sexual potency, and a general sense of well-being. Circulating testosterone rose from mean basal value of 223 +/- 164 to 879 +/- 171 ng/dl (SD), representing a mean increment of 290%. Mean serum lutenizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) values before treatment were 76 +/- 40 and 143 +/- 85 ng/ml (SD). During treatment, both LH and FSH increased dramatically to 518 +/- 302 and 787 +/- 291 ng/ml (SD), respectively. Both serum gonadotropin values are expressed as ng/ml of LER 907. The effect of clomiphene on spermatogenesis in these subjects was inconclusive as either improvement or deterioration occured. In these five patients, serum prolactin was not related in any way to testicular function as its values were consistently in the normal range throughout the entire study period. Serum total estrogen, however, was elevated in all; the significance of this high circulating estrogen in relation to gonadal dysfunction in uremia is not clear at the present time. However, we found that normalization of circulating androgen was beneficial to our patients and that long-term clomiphene treatment achieved this goal by increasing pituitary gonadotropin secretion and secondarily stimulating testicular hormonogenesis.
 
Eric Potratz

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As far as AIs are concerned it does lower HDL and libido and dry joints, however the results for Cholesterol in a few studies i have posted show little to no effect on cholesterol for Adex and Aromasin (dose dependant and user dependant of course) however theres actually an increase in LH and FSH which are important as well after a cycle as for the most part they are low, as well as testosterone.

with regaurds to AIs in PCT, with 5a reduced steroids acting as a mild AI, lowers E2 somewhat but the fact remains that there is a HIGHER amount of E2 after cycle then testosterone. this effects the feedback loop thus making recovery harder. SERM will increase the T levels and keep E2 the same (for the most part). i would rather lower e2 while raising T levels making recovery a tad faster.

Aromasin (being steroidal) is the only one that MAY have androgenic sides, but none are shown at the dose that we use. it also decreases SHBG slightly (which SERMS raise) and increase IGF1 slightly which SERMs decrease (torem and Nolva mor so then clomid), and it increase LH and FSH by about 40% in one study i found.

just my .02

AI’s increase LH & FSH in normal men, not men who have sub-physiological levels of estrogen. As in, suppressing estrogen, when it is already suppressed, is not going to have benefit.

Ive seen enough blood tests to know that PCT yields a sub-physiological levels of estrogen after most cycles. The only time you may have high estrogen during PCT is if you ran high amounts of an aromatizing steroid (eg, testosterone) and didn’t use an AI during the cycle. It is a common misconception that E2 is high during PCT, especially with the current practice of cycling. (don’t forget you need testosterone to make E2)

-Eric
 
Eric Potratz

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What would you typically dose most serms at Primordial after an OTC cycle -
In the perferred order -

Toremifene – 40mg
Nolvadex – 10mg
Clomid – 25mg

Possibly double those doses in a more aggressive protocol.

-Eric
 
Eric Potratz

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Restoration of plasma testosterone levels in uremic men with clomiphene citrate.
Lim VS, Fang VS.

Five men with chronic renal failure and symptoms suggestive to androgen deficiency were treated with clomiphene citrate (Clomid) at a dose of 100 mg/day for a period of 5 to 12 months. The treatment resulted uniformly in increased libido, sexual potency, and a general sense of well-being. Circulating testosterone rose from mean basal value of 223 +/- 164 to 879 +/- 171 ng/dl (SD), representing a mean increment of 290%. Mean serum lutenizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) values before treatment were 76 +/- 40 and 143 +/- 85 ng/ml (SD). During treatment, both LH and FSH increased dramatically to 518 +/- 302 and 787 +/- 291 ng/ml (SD), respectively. Both serum gonadotropin values are expressed as ng/ml of LER 907. The effect of clomiphene on spermatogenesis in these subjects was inconclusive as either improvement or deterioration occured. In these five patients, serum prolactin was not related in any way to testicular function as its values were consistently in the normal range throughout the entire study period. Serum total estrogen, however, was elevated in all; the significance of this high circulating estrogen in relation to gonadal dysfunction in uremia is not clear at the present time. However, we found that normalization of circulating androgen was beneficial to our patients and that long-term clomiphene treatment achieved this goal by increasing pituitary gonadotropin secretion and secondarily stimulating testicular hormonogenesis.
I wouldn’t say those above results are typical by any means.

Ive seen hundreds of anecdotes to support the fact that clomid will do the exact opposite – suppress libido, reduce sexual potency, and ruin a general sense of well being.

Real-world results with SERMs (Clomid & Nolvadex) tend to be more in line with what we find in this study-

Tamoxifen administration is associated with a high rate of treatment-limiting symptoms in male breast cancer patients.
Anelli TF, et al.
Department of Surgery, Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, New York, New York 10021.


-Eric
 
crazyfool405

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]AI’s increase LH & FSH in normal men, not men who have sub-physiological levels of estrogen[/B]. As in, suppressing estrogen, when it is already suppressed, is not going to have benefit.

Ive seen enough blood tests to know that PCT yields a sub-physiological levels of estrogen after most cycles. The only time you may have high estrogen during PCT is if you ran high amounts of an aromatizing steroid (eg, testosterone) and didn’t use an AI during the cycle. It is a common misconception that E2 is high during PCT, especially with the current practice of cycling. (don’t forget you need testosterone to make E2)

-Eric
do you have a study supporting this? i would like to see it.

your E2 may very well be in the mid 20s which is normal when you come off a cycle. which will give you just about a 4:1 ratio of E:T which is not what we want

of course you need T to make E2 but, the higher E2 than T is NOT normal and lowering E2 will increase recovery time.

the PCT protocols that are on here that are SERM only. there should be no reducing of E2, SERMs (with the exception of Torem) do not lower E2 levels.
 
Eric Potratz

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I’m familiar with that study. I presume the same results would have been realized had the 50mg/day dose been continued. Most historical data you will find on Clomid uses doses in the lower range (eg, 25-50mg/day) Same thing with Nolva. (eg, 10-20mg/day)

100mg day is not quite as insane as some of the other protocols we see, such as 300/200/150 type crap. This is just flat out idiotic.

-Eric
 
crazyfool405

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In the perferred order -

Toremifene – 40mg
Nolvadex – 10mg
Clomid – 25mg

Possibly double those doses in a more aggressive protocol.

-Eric
(torem)ive seen a study indicating that 30mg was almost useless in HPTA recovery, where as 60-90 was much better.

nolva and clomid though i agree,

you also have to remember most people on here take research chemicals in which potency is not always something we can count on.
 
Eric Potratz

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do you have a study supporting this? i would like to see it.
It’s from years of experience and hundreds if not thousands of personal anecdotes and blood results that Ive seen.

Go run a cycle with a non-aromatizing or progestin based AAS. Then get your E2 tested 2-3 weeks after the cycle… it will be at sub-physiological levels.

there should be no reducing of E2, SERMs (with the exception of Torem) do not lower E2 levels.
Im not sure what you’re saying here. If T levels are increased without antagonism of aromatase, E2 is going to increase by default.

-Eric
 
crazyfool405

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i hate when that happens...

Treatment and Management

Treatment of male infertility associated with hypogonadism differs considerably from the treatment of hypogonadism when fertility is not desired. If fertility is not desired, exogenous testosterone administration to hypogonadal men is the most simple and well-studied method for raising serum testosterone levels.

Testosterone therapy often improves sexual function, libido, well-being, bone density, and body composition,[13] although the long-term effects of the therapy on cardiovascular health and on the risk of prostate disease have not yet been determined.[14] Despite its benefits, exogenous testosterone is counterproductive if fertility is desired since it provides negative feedback to the pituitary, thereby decreasing LH and FSH stimulation to the testes and thus further inhibiting spermatogenesis (Figure 1).

Treatment of male infertility due to hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism focuses upon direct testicular stimulation to increase Leydig-cell production of testosterone, and Sertoli-cell support of spermatogenesis. Standard therapies include human chorionic gonadotropin, which acts as an LH analog within the testes, either alone or in combination with human menopausal gonadotropin or recombinant FSH. Alternatively, some men with hypothalamic hypogonadism are treated with gonadotropin-releasing hormone administered via a pump, although no data have shown that this more complex and expensive treatment improves efficacy. Although not all men with hypogonadism respond to hormonal treatment for infertility, men who previously had normal spermatogenesis are most likely to respond.[14]

The use of aromatase inhibitors in the treatment of male infertility is a novel approach that has not been widely used or studied. The results of an uncontrolled study of 140 heterogeneous, infertile men by Raman and Schlegel suggested a role for aromatase inhibitors in the treatment of infertility. Not all the men had infertility caused by hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism secondary to obesity, but interestingly all the men responded to treatment with aromatase inhibitors with improved sperm analyses, increased serum testosterone levels and decreased serum estradiol levels.[2]

Three aromatase inhibitors -- anastrozole, letrozole, and testolactone -- have been studied for the treatment of hyperestrogenic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism.[15] Although all three have been shown to be effective in increasing serum testosterone levels and decreasing estradiol levels, letrozole has not been evaluated in the treatment of male infertility and the appropriate dose for treatment of men with hypogonadism is less well characterized.[16] Testolactone, while equally effective compared with anastrozole in improving semen parameters, is a steroidal aromatase inhibitor that requires dosing four times daily and has been shown to have other hormonal effects, including a theoretical risk of adrenal steroid inhibition.[2] Anastrozole was chosen for the treatment of the case patient as it is easy to dose, has few adverse effects, and because effectiveness at improving sperm parameters has been demonstrated.

In addition to the therapeutic strategies discussed above, it is important to note that weight loss via lifestyle changes, medical therapy, or bariatric surgery should also be a primary goal of treatment for men with obesity.



i cant get any other page, it wont let me as i do not have an account. i wish i could so i can see the studies they use
 
DLM5

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Crazyfool and Eric,
Thanks to both of you for droping your smarts on this thread! My learing curve is still steep on this stuff, I don't know if I'll ever wrap my head around all this.
I'm a 8 days from starting PCT.. I still haven't decided what route to go between thease two PCT's, though I have on hand all the products for both.

Clomid, Aromasin, EndoAmp, A.I. PCS..
or
Torem, PP's TRS

Either way, I live 5 minutes from ZRT Labs. I will have blood work done post PCT, I might just have it done last day of my cycle too, hell I should have had it done before cycle too. Regardless I'll know where my Test level is 30 days after PCT..
 
pistonpump

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living close to zrt labs must be nice. can you just walk in and request only certain areas to be tested as opposed to full panels? and how much do they cost, you could be very valuable to giving research feedback from steroid usage n cycling should you decide to keep on cycling.
 
DLM5

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living close to zrt labs must be nice. can you just walk in and request only certain areas to be tested as opposed to full panels? and how much do they cost, you could be very valuable to giving research feedback from steroid usage n cycling should you decide to keep on cycling.
Funny story.. My GF is a crazy hot chic.. she knows I'm on.. But before I went on, I was reading a thread on the PP's TRS Eric referanced ZRT Labs in Beaverton. Well I told her there was a lab local I could get work done at, she knew the place. Her Dr. had lab work done on her crazy ass from ZRT. She hooked me up with the number, lol! How crazy is she? She was on like Lexipro, Cymbalta, and I think Depicane when I hooked up with her. But she's hot and DG4L, DIRTY GIRL FOR LIFE.
Anyhow I called em. All I have to do is call the day before and put in a order. Show up the next day, pay for and get my kit. They want you to test yourself first thing when you wake up. Then I drive the kit back over and 7 days later I have the results. The siliva only tests for free test. The blood does total test. I can get a blood total test done for like $35.00 or get my E2 with it for $70 I think. I think they have a 4 panel on the silivia. I know they have a 4 panel on the blood, and you get to pick what you want tested. They also do a full hormone panel on the blood. I'm not sure what the cost on those are.
I was gonna go cheap and just do the blood for total test. See if I'm in a good normal range a month after my PCT.
If I had it to do over. I'd have done a total test before cycle, the last day of the cycle, last day of PCT, 30 days after PCT. I could have done that for a $140.00. That would be some good info to have had being this was my first cycle. Now I will never know what my total test was at 37 prior to my first cycle.
 
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oh im well aware of ZRT labs i was just wondering if things would be different by having them right there and going in in person but i guess its the same thing as mailing in tests.
 
DLM5

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Ya I still have to self test myself..
I'm guessing there is some loophole hole in my state where they can test blood without a DR's work order if the sample is not taken by ZRT...
MY GF went in and had her work done there by DR's orders, she also thinks they do piss tests for drugs..
 
pistonpump

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im sending in my blood test for LH and FSH today.
 
Wilderbeast

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I agree with Eric on this one as well. More is not always better. SERMs are so overused and overdosed these days --do you really wonder why gyno is an epidemic??? When users use absurd dosages of estrogen receptor modulators, the body (specifically the estrogen receptors) can become oversensitive to estrogen and normal levels of estrogens can begin to cause physiological side effects (where under pre-SERM abuse conditions this would not be the case).
 

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