EXTREMELY High Liver Enzymes....do I take the Toremifene?

[monsterbox]

I took pplex for 3 week and it did nothing, so I switched to M-drol. I stopped taking it yesterday (day 8).

I had extremely huge reaction and anxiety to ephedra pill which has lasted 48+ hours.

Had a blood test and AST - 284 and ALT - 523. I have no appetite but I can't tell if its from the anxiety I have now, or from liver.


I need to PCT. My nuts are'nt smaller, its been 48hrs since my last Superdrol pill. My sex drive is still here. I'm just very anxious and look worn out.

My plan was Toremifene 90/60/60/30 and Reversitol 0/0/3/2/2/2/1

WHAT should I do consider my values are so high. I'm seeing a specialist tomorrow about my liver and having it examined in detail as this is off the charts for any heptatoxic drug.


Will toxic effects of toremifene outweigh the hormonal help or vise versa?

 

[monsterbox]

funny how all these getting bigger threads have lots of responses but when it comes to serious health issues no one really knows

 

[Space]

Well I always tell people you should get a liver test if your cycle exceeds 4 weeks!

I suppose this really comes down to a matter of priorities. If you haven't been experiencing any symptoms of gynecomastia or testicular shrinkage and your main priority is your health give your body a break to recuperate then skip the PCT. Otherwise continue with PCT as normal.

Going without a PCT is less than ideal though it was common place back in the 60's when people took dianabol only cycles for 8 weeks.

What's more disturbing about this post is you did everything right, running support supplements and you barely exceeded 4 weeks and your liver enzymes are in the danger zone. There are people on this board bridging superdrol into phera for +6 weeks and don't have the foresight to get blood tests and may never know the damage they are doing to themselves.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

funny how all these getting bigger threads have lots of responses but when it comes to serious health issues no one really knows

monster, I hope you will share with us what the doctor told you - most of the PCT stuff has not been developed by MDs, but by common-sense bodybuilders, and the ideas are then supported by quoting studies. Studies that rarely, if ever, were done with roid users in mind (this goes for the Nolva / Tamoxifene stuff).

I hold my fingers crossed that everything will work out fine. A guy on a german board did everything "right", too, in terms of PCT and might have to take medication for the rest of his life because his blood lipids got messed up horribly.

You ask "Will toxic effects of toremifene outweigh the hormonal help or vise versa?" - you cannot expect anyone knows for sure.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

What was your bilirubin?

 

[EasyEJL]

I took pplex for 3 week and it did nothing, so I switched to M-drol. I stopped taking it yesterday (day 8).

I had extremely huge reaction and anxiety to ephedra pill which has lasted 48+ hours.

Had a blood test and AST - 284 and ALT - 523. I have no appetite but I can't tell if its from the anxiety I have now, or from liver.


I need to PCT. My nuts are'nt smaller, its been 48hrs since my last Superdrol pill. My sex drive is still here. I'm just very anxious and look worn out.

My plan was Toremifene 90/60/60/30 and Reversitol 0/0/3/2/2/2/1

WHAT should I do consider my values are so high. I'm seeing a specialist tomorrow about my liver and having it examined in detail as this is off the charts for any heptatoxic drug.


Will toxic effects of toremifene outweigh the hormonal help or vise versa?

Was the blood test while you were still taking the superdrol?

 

[monsterbox]

Was the blood test while you were still taking the superdrol?

yes, exactly 24hrs after the last pill was consumed.

 

[EasyEJL]

one more question, had you worked out that morning before the blood draw?

I think in those shoes i'd skip the PCT at least for a few more days, and see about getting another set of blood draws for liver values. other than that I'd see about getting some SAM-e at a moderately high dose, as that should help a bit

 

[monsterbox]

one more question, had you worked out that morning before the blood draw?

I think in those shoes i'd skip the PCT at least for a few more days, and see about getting another set of blood draws for liver values. other than that I'd see about getting some SAM-e at a moderately high dose, as that should help a bit

no I didn't workout that morning...I didn't sleep that entire night or day before the blood test and was anxious as hell. I still am.

I feell like this anxiety is withdrawls from superdrol and ephedra pill. I feel like the ephedra pill hit me really hard because my liver is messed up I donno. I'm loosing my mind now.


I should at least take reversitol with AI's? Are these heptatoxic?

 

[EasyEJL]

not really hepatoxic, but processing anything extra can keep levels elevated. waiting another 3-4 days to start PCT isn't optimal, but if you can get another liver values test done then and its closer to normal then starting a regular PCT would seem better than trying anything more now

 

[futurepilot]

What was your bilirubin?

X2.

Those kind of levels would make me go to the hospital, just to be safe.

 

[Space]

I hate to add to your concern, but if your prepared for another shock you should get your cholesterol checked also.

 

[Iron Lungz]

Will toxic effects of toremifene outweigh the hormonal help or vise versa?

The choice is yours, my friend. This sort of thing is best left to those (Doctors) who have the instruments to treat and diagnose you.
I will say, however, with your elevated levels, I would get another panel done before making any final decision. Skewed liver function reading happen all the time for various reasons. Your anxiety could be the manifestation of the struggle that you're having on deciding the correct route.
Best advice, get more test and go from there.
Food for thought from a study that I just read… The web site is in the quote.

ASHP. ORG
Because only minimal amounts of toremifene (about 10%) are excreted in urine, and because the pharmacokinetics of toremifene citrate and N-demethyltoremifene, an active metabolite of the drug, are not altered in patients with renal impairment, dosage adjustment is not necessary in such patients.1 10

Toremifene is extensively metabolized in the liver, and the drug is eliminated more slowly in patients with hepatic impairment (e.g., cirrhosis or fibrosis).1 10 In patients with hepatic impairment, toremifene should be used with caution and liver function should be monitored carefully

 

[maurice02]

you need a PCT but I would be straight up with your doctor in all honesty and see his recommendation on the toxicity it could have on your liver.......off hand I can't tell you how much more of an effect this could have on your liver.

 

[Space]

you need a PCT but I would be straight up with your doctor in all honesty and see his recommendation on the toxicity it could have on your liver.......off hand I can't tell you how much more of an effect this could have on your liver.

The doctor is going to tell him to discontinue all non-prescription medicines. This is good advice under the circumstances.

Wait till your liver enzymes return to normal and then get your testosterone values checked. If you haven't recovered naturally run a cycle of clomid.

 

[maurice02]

The doctor is going to tell him to discontinue all non-prescription medicines. This is good advice under the circumstances.

Wait till your liver enzymes return to normal and then get your testosterone values checked. If you haven't recovered naturally run a cycle of clomid.

true....any studies I did previously were only in rats with estradiol, tamox, etc...
And I don't wanna give any advice to a person regarding hepatotoxicty in rats.......lol.

 

[monsterbox]

well i'm going to stick with reversitol..theres nothing in it thats heptatoxic

 

[crazyfool405]

when you went for the blood work and the enzymes came back super high did they do a hepatitis check? are you getting a liver sonagram? my enzymes were never that high.

 

[TripDog]

well i'm going to stick with reversitol..theres nothing in it thats heptatoxic

Thats a good plan for the time being, as reserv is a potent antioxidant. I strongly recommend getting some Alpha lipoic acid from walmart as soon as possible. Try to drop all other supplements right now as anything u put in your body will add to liver stress. I really never heard of any hepitoxic effects of torm thought.

Dam the pplex is straight rat poison.... what doses were u taking?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

when you went for the blood work and the enzymes came back super high did they do a hepatitis check? are you getting a liver sonagram? my enzymes were never that high.

I feel ya.. the highest mine got was like 80/40 and they ran a Hep panel on me even at that..

For the 3rd time.. Did you have Bilirubin tested? If so what was the results.

 

[futurepilot]

well i'm going to stick with reversitol..theres nothing in it thats heptatoxic

Dude, in all honesty i've run pplex as high as 76.8mgs for 2 wks, and my enzymes didnt get above 70 on either AST/ALT.

You wouldnt want to be in cholestasis and not deal with it.

 

[crazyfool405]

I feel ya.. the highest mine got was like 80/40 and they ran a Hep panel on me even at that..

For the 3rd time.. Did you have Bilirubin tested? If so what was the results.

mine were up to almost 200 at one point.

but my 7 week pplex mdrol bridge liver enzymes didnt get more then 170 i dont think i gotta recheck bloods

 

[Frank Reynolds]

mine were up to almost 200 at one point.

but my 7 week pplex mdrol bridge liver enzymes didnt get more then 170 i dont think i gotta recheck bloods

What are your ast/alt/bilirubin now?

 

[crazyfool405]

What are your ast/alt/bilirubin now?

i need to pick up my blood work from post cycle along with get more blood work. i dont remember bili but alt 73 ast 40 something.

 

[monsterbox]

I just don't understand why they are so high...this is unhead of. I used milk thistle and liv52 i'm scared as f*ck

 

[EasyEJL]

your doctor didnt talk about getting you retested to make sure it wasn't an error? and he didn't send you someplace to get liver scans?

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I just don't understand why they are so high...this is unhead of. I used milk thistle and liv52 i'm scared as f*ck

How many methyl cycles have you done in the past year? Your not on any other meds, or anything?

 

[dg806]

These levels are high, but fortuantely, if they were caused by the pplex and mdrol, they should come back down own their own over time. Many people do not and can not get blood work done while they run this stuff. I think if more people did, you would see more results like this. I have heard or seen several cases where liver values have been in the hundreds. But that is why we say ALWAYS use support supps. This cannot be stressed enough. If you are one of the lucky ones that it doesn't affect that bad, good, but I would be the one it DID affect. I would not take any more supps until this comes down and don't drink any alcohol.

 

[boo99]

I just don't understand why they are so high...this is unhead of. I used milk thistle and liv52 i'm scared as f*ck

Monster

they are high but NOT that high.
Ive seen patients go home (asymptomatic ones) with enzymes in the 10,000s from the hospital and they are rechecked again in like 5-7 days.

If you needed a hospital, your MD would have sent you but theres little to be done there. Its just a matter of time till they return to baseline man.

do what you said (the reversitol) lay off all toxic stuff, try that liver flush I suggested as well, get them checked again, and whats the bilirubin (as someone else asked here )?

You WILL rebound back from this, you are young and the liver is VERY regenerative.



You have all our support here, chill out some, you WILL be fine dude.



boo

 

[dg806]

I went back and read some of your plex thread. You have taken Plex, sdrol, Epi, 3ad, drank alcohol while on cycle, and that may not be all....I didn't finish reading. It does not surprise me that your liver values are this high. You may think you allowed enough time between cycles, but I will say you were not even close.....thus the reason the values are high. This is not a flame, but just a post to get you to realize what you really did. Also, you were around 140 when you started cycles? Not too smart IMO. Anyway, good luck. I think you need to lay off everything for a year!

 

[boggs67ss]

This is why they tell people wait till your 21 to use steroids. Not saying that 21 is a magic number or anything, but you got to wait till your fully developed, or your gonna have f**ked up values, and might need to take medication the rest or your life. Not tryin to talk sh*t or anything, but you need to recover, and stay off the gear for a couple years, then hit up some test. Best of luck.

 

[nateo1979]

I went back and read some of your plex thread. You have taken Plex, sdrol, Epi, 3ad, drank alcohol while on cycle, and that may not be all....I didn't finish reading. It does not surprise me that your liver values are this high. You may think you allowed enough time between cycles, but I will say you were not even close.....thus the reason the values are high. This is not a flame, but just a post to get you to realize what you really did. Also, you were around 140 when you started cycles? Not too smart IMO. Anyway, good luck. I think you need to lay off everything for a year!

Agree.. In addition, I have weird feeling that you are still pretty young. Maybe just 21.

 

[monsterbox]

Agree.. In addition, I have weird feeling that you are still pretty young. Maybe just 21.

I was 160, correction.

I took 3-ad for a week.

I ran havoc 4wks and then 20days.

I drank 3-4 shots on the second day of pplex. Thats all.


I do agree I should Have waited longer, but I really haven't extremely stupid about this. My only mistake was the minor drinking accident. I'm definitely taking much time off from Orals....more than a year. I'm going to hone in on a perfect diet and take advantage of my fast metabolism and new size.

 

[nateo1979]

I was 160, correction.

I took 3-ad for a week.

I ran havoc 4wks and then 20days.

I drank 3-4 shots on the second day of pplex. Thats all.

Dude...You just stated you are 20 years old, so you starting taking ds/ph when you were 19 (havoc at 19). Your body is still is growing naturally...I know, I know this is going in one ear out the other, but your the one with high liver enzymes.. GET RID OF THE ZERO TO SIXTY SYNDROME. ITS NOT A SPRINT BUT A MARATHON TO GET BIGGER.

 

[SpargelJanusz]

GET RID OF THE ZERO TO SIXTY SYNDROME. ITS NOT A SPRINT BUT A MARATHON TO GET BIGGER.

Very good advice. And monsterbox, no flaming here, but you seem to have set a new standard in irresponsible oral roid use.

 

[EasyEJL]

Very good advice. And monsterbox, no flaming here, but you seem to have set a new standard in irresponsible oral roid use.

i've seen worse, at least he is being honest and outright about it. And I think he realizes now that it wasn't the best idea.

 

[zacklewis]

Yes this post has really re-elucidated the stress your liver is under during a cycle.

 

[monsterbox]

I just don't understand why it has to be me.

Of all the stupid idiots that run winstrol tabs for 10 weeks...run superdrol at 40-50mg, run mythl stack and no pct's or liver supports, I'm the one who ends up with life threatening liver values.

 

[EasyEJL]

I just don't understand why it has to be me.

Of all the stupid idiots that run winstrol tabs for 10 weeks...run superdrol at 40-50mg, run mythl stack and no pct's or liver supports, I'm the one who ends up with life threatening liver values.

maybe or could be a lab error. it happens. Wait and see what a retest shows

 

[monsterbox]

maybe or could be a lab error. it happens. Wait and see what a retest shows

I'm going to list the only other things I've taken...

B6 50/100mg/day
Bulk 1-c
Vitamin c - 1g/day
10g fish oil
liv 52 and milk thistle
Cissus <---- I parachute it in toilet paper every day...anyway this could cause elevation?

Other than that its been 2 havoc cycles and this recent cycle over the course of a year...just sounds outragous to me. Maybe I have some kind of pre-existing condition.

I could understand like 100pts above normal but I'm 450 above normal.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

maybe or could be a lab error. it happens. Wait and see what a retest shows

I agree.

Keep your s h i t clean. Take the Reversitol, and do some liver cleansing. Then get retested as soon as possible. I say within the next week or two.

Unless you have other genetic liver issues, you will bounce back.

Also, learn to manage that anxiety. Stress can do all kinds of crazy stuff to the body.

CHILL. The liver is a bad mofo.

 

[monsterbox]

I agree.

Keep your s h i t clean. Take the Reversitol, and do some liver cleansing. Then get retested as soon as possible. I say within the next week or two.

Unless you have other genetic liver issues, you will bounce back.

Also, learn to manage that anxiety. Stress can do all kinds of crazy stuff to the body.

CHILL. The liver is a bad mofo.

I already retested today...waiting on results tomorrow. I'm just in to much disbelief.

They had to have dropped 50 or so points over the past 2 days without superdrol. I just wanted to make sure its not a lab error, cost me 20 bucks. Ill retest a third time 2 weeks from now.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I already retested today...waiting on results tomorrow. I'm just in to much disbelief.

They had to have dropped 50 or so points over the past 2 days without superdrol. I just wanted to make sure its not a lab error, cost me 20 bucks. Ill retest a third time 2 weeks from now.

Relax.

Post them up when you get them.

 

[maurice02]

The liver is a hearty organ, but you need to stop worrying about it. You are causing excess stress on your system right now worrying.

I would tend to think that you might also have some other signs right now if they were that bad since those values would lead me to believe that your immune system would be pretty low at this point.

Any other sides at all?

 

[EasyEJL]

and SAM-e is your friend

 

[Kristofer68SS]

and SAM-e is your friend

Kind of lazy E.

Is Sam-E just for the liver, doesnt it help with depression also?

 

[monsterbox]

The liver is a hearty organ, but you need to stop worrying about it. You are causing excess stress on your system right now worrying.

I would tend to think that you might also have some other signs right now if they were that bad since those values would lead me to believe that your immune system would be pretty low at this point.

Any other sides at all?

I had massive anxiety, complete loss of appetite, and depression...thats why I went to the doctor.

However, I feel ABSOLUTELY way better today after sleeping two nights with Ambien. I'm on NO drugs at all right now, only Reversitol and two doses of Toremifene in me. Sex drive is back, balls ache/feel full, no skin itching, no yellowness, and Appetite finally returning today. If I hadn't have seen my results I'd be thinking I was 100% perfectly fine and waiting for another cycle of something different.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Did you test bilirubin or what? Do you realize that this is an important test? It will tell you more about what is going on with your liver, and possible damage.

It has been asked about 5 times now..lol

 

[monsterbox]

Did you test bilirubin or what? Do you realize that this is an important test? It will tell you more about what is going on with your liver, and possible damage.

It has been asked about 5 times now..lol

I asked for it today...I asked for a full hepatic panel. It will be here tomorrow.

 

[EasyEJL]

no, its valuable for joints + mood too