get a serm, there's no excuse (newbs read this!)

bualls23

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i'm new to the board and just wanted to post a thread for the newbs(which i am) about nolva/clomid/tor as a serm. i see alot of people buying the cycle of their choice, starting them, and then wondering about otc pct, where their balls/gains went, why their moobs (man boobs) leak, or if they should have nolva, or how to get it. i may be new to this,but common sense would tell me to you get your pct sorted first, and then look into what cycle to do. and as for the difficulty in acquiring nolva/clomid/tor etc, stop being silly about it being prescription only, and its too hard to get. i have been reading on here a few months, and decided to try and get the most difficult buy first, ie: nolva. suprisingly, it took about 20 minutes of googling and a credit card, and i now have 2 pct's worth of nolva in my hands. total time: 20 minutes searching, 3 days waiting for the post, and about 10 seconds opening the said post.it is unbelievebly easy, just put the effort in. i still have no intention of doing a cycle any time soon, but at least i know i have a decent serm ready just in case. bottom line. don't rely on otc pct, a serm is as simple to acquire as m-drol or 6-oxo, or whatever else you choose to use. be smart, get your serm, cover your bases, then buy your m-drol, i don't think they'll sell out anytime soon.
 

2k2ser

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Getting a SERM is not as difficult as some people make it out to be. The entire process should take less than a week, shipping included. Find another source if it takes any longer! I still keep reading "I've been waiting for almost a month", etc. Someone with 2 posts is saying it's easy.....time for everyone to stop making it into a big ordeal. Good post!
 

bualls23

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as well, when someone tells you to try google, or search, don't get all pissy and think they're being a smart-ass,give it a try! its the best advice someone can give you.
 
Usf97j4x4

Usf97j4x4

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Don't spout this serm-only rhetoric please. Full recovery is completely attainable for most cycles using OTC products.
 
Usf97j4x4

Usf97j4x4

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Getting a SERM is not as difficult as some people make it out to be. The entire process should take less than a week, shipping included. Find another source if it takes any longer! I still keep reading "I've been waiting for almost a month", etc. Someone with 2 posts is saying it's easy.....time for everyone to stop making it into a big ordeal. Good post!
The company I get research chemicals gets me them in 4 days.
 

bualls23

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i'm not spouting a 'serm only' approach, i'm justy verifying what seems to be in the majority for pct. people obviously choose a serm for a reason...it works. over the counter is fine, if thats what you want to do then great, but alot of the products are new to the market, and can be confusing in terms of what does what. there's only one name for nolvadex or clomid.otc can also be included with a serm for a more well rounded pct.i'll include otc products in my pct as well i'm sure. i'm simply saying that a serm seems to be the most effective and clinically reliable form of pct,and if your new to designers like me, and insist on superdrol or phera as a first cycle(not me personally),wouldn't you want to have the most effective/strongest pct just in case, whether you use it or not? there's no excuse not to have a serm if you really want one. alot of people say they want one but can't find it/ don't know how to get it. if you want one, its out there en masse, just don't expect it to be wrapped up and given to you..... i'm not saying everyone get a serm and go nuts with a superdrol/m1t/phera stack! or whatever you want, there obviously is a level or responsibility implied as well.
 
Usf97j4x4

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FWIW many folks do not like to toy with the legal gray area that is research chemicals
 
Trauma1

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It largely depends on a few factors, such as the compound(s) used, cycle length, and dosing of compound(s).

There are MANY more compounds overall that require a SERM in pct than not. Anabolic Innovations "Post Cycle Support" is a great OTC PCT product that i hightly recommend.

It works well for PCT from certain compounds like Halodrol as pembroke stated. :)
 
TripDog

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Get a serm!
 
Kristofer68SS

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Don't spout this serm-only rhetoric please. Full recovery is completely attainable for most cycles using OTC products.

Thank you...........After seeing some IForce Reversitol bloodwork......there is not a doubt in my mind.

"MOST CYCLES"
 
TripDog

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Don't spout this serm-only rhetoric please. Full recovery is completely attainable for most cycles using OTC products.
Have fun with breasts.
 

bualls23

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i understand the doubt with gray market, but its seemed pretty easy to find 10mg tabs of nolva (15.2mg as tamoxifan citrate)in 100 tab packs.from this one experience it seemes that even avoiding research nolva was fairly straight forward, even with having to go through customs.
 
Kristofer68SS

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lets remember.

SERM does not equate to "no boobies".

And vice versa.

NO SERM does not equate to "boobies".

Facts gentlemen, Facts.

I have L-tor sitting next to me. I dont hate research chems, but i dont think they are "The Almighty Pct" and shall be no other.
 
Usf97j4x4

Usf97j4x4

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Have fun with breasts.
You neg me accusing me of saying a SERM is not necessary in order to sell products..? Last I checked our company does not sell PCT products.

Read my post thoroughly before you spout your nonsense.

"Most cycles"

That being said I've seen bloodwork results from OTC PCT recovering from SD and M1T cycles. I do bloodwork before and after every cycle I run and have never had an issue. I use OTC products 90% of the time. It is possible. Your out of your skull if you think otherwise.
 
Kristofer68SS

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You neg me accusing me of saying a SERM is not necessary in order to sell products..? Last I checked our company does not sell PCT products.

Read my post thoroughly before you spout your nonsense.

"Most cycles"

That being said I've seen bloodwork results from OTC PCT recovering from SD and M1T cycles. I do bloodwork before and after every cycle I run and have never had an issue. I use OTC products 90% of the time. It is possible. Your out of your skull if you think otherwise.

wow...... Something personal brewing here guys?

There is legitimate arguments for both sides of this SERM vs OTC debate.

I think it is a personal choice, ONCE one is familiar with both OTC and SERM based Post cycle therapies and there individual ramifications.

Cant we all just get along?
 
Usf97j4x4

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wow...... Something personal brewing here guys?

There is legitimate arguments for both sides of this SERM vs OTC debate.

I think it is a personal choice, ONCE one is familiar with both OTC and SERM based Post cycle therapies and there individual ramifications.

Cant we all just get along?
I have my side and my belief that a SERM is not always necessary. I don't like being accused of taking that side to sell products when my company doesnt even make PCT products. Its not a big deal though.

A big problem is that many people do not know how to run proper OTC protocols.
 
Trauma1

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You neg me accusing me of saying a SERM is not necessary in order to sell products..? Last I checked our company does not sell PCT products.

Read my post thoroughly before you spout your nonsense.

"Most cycles"

That being said I've seen bloodwork results from OTC PCT recovering from SD and M1T cycles. I do bloodwork before and after every cycle I run and have never had an issue. I use OTC products 90% of the time. It is possible. Your out of your skull if you think otherwise.
I'd think REAL hard before being bold enough to say "Spout your nonesense". You've put your damn foot in your mouth so many times it isn't funny.

It's seriously a GOOD thing CEL has Ziquor as a competent rep, because you clearly don't have a damn clue what you're talking about the majority of the time.

You're more than deserving of my negs, enjoy dumbazz! :thumbsup:
 
TripDog

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You neg me accusing me of saying a SERM is not necessary in order to sell products..? Last I checked our company does not sell PCT products.

Read my post thoroughly before you spout your nonsense.

"Most cycles"

That being said I've seen bloodwork results from OTC PCT recovering from SD and M1T cycles. I do bloodwork before and after every cycle I run and have never had an issue. I use OTC products 90% of the time. It is possible. Your out of your skull if you think otherwise.
It's really a shame a company like cel had to settle for a substandard rep like yourself. Here's a little tip kid, as a rep you need to conduct yourself a TAD more professional...because now you are making CEL look as foolish as you are. Take a drink from your sippy cup and grow up little boy.
 
Jayhawkk

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I would have to disagree with MOST cycles not needing a SERM. If you're able to fully recover on a harsh cycle like M1T, in a minimal or equivilent time using an OTC, I would like to see proof. Ive tried the no SERM approach using OTC (having SERM on standby) and it was a night and day result, in my personal experience.
 
Iron Lungz

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I would have to disagree with MOST cycles not needing a SERM. If you're able to fully recover on a harsh cycle like M1T, in a minimal or equivilent time using an OTC, I would like to see proof. Ive tried the no SERM approach using OTC (having SERM on standby) and it was a night and day result, in my personal experience.
The whole OTC PCT thing is a scam, IMO. No herb is going to bring me back, or block esrto rebound like a SERM. The only herb that I would even consider while in PCT shows up on drug test, so that's a no no... :(

OTC therapy for M1T? OUCH! Say buh-bye nuts!
 
Trauma1

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I have my side and my belief that a SERM is not always necessary. I don't like being accused of taking that side to sell products when my company doesnt even make PCT products. Its not a big deal though.

A big problem is that many people do not know how to run proper OTC protocols.
Really now......then educate us oh great guru? :lol: :rolleyes:

Pardon the laughter that surely permeates the air in the process (Many fold). :thumbsup:
 

bualls23

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i have to agree with the above few posts here. serms are clinically proven with research to back it that they are effective, and they work. maybe not 100% of the time, but well enough to be extremely effective and popular. otc is more of a grey area to me than serms personally. 1 day a product is there, the next its been discontinued. then 1 company makes a good product, so 10 other companies use the same name and add an apostrophe or an 'extreme' on the end to try and make some money as well.'novadex xt' comes to mind here incidently. there's a million and 1 otc products to do the job of one serm, and some otc crap doesn't really do any job at all. it just seems that a serm is the simple, effective,logical way to go about it. why buy 10 bottles of otc for god knows how much, when all you need is maybe a serm and a couple other otc products to support it? otc has its uses; cycle support is essential, as are other things, but to try and compete with scientifically manufactured treatments that have years and years of research behind them, is a bit much. this is why someone new to designers like myself would go for a serm in my opinion. researching otc pct is overwhelming, everybody uses different things, so you just end up more confused. this does this, that does that,that does this but not that, and that won't do this, but it'll help with those. a serm is a serm, there's no confusing what its designed for, what is used for, and how to use it. thats pretty safe and simple in my opinion.
 
Iron Lungz

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Really now......then educate us oh great guru? :lol: :rolleyes:

Pardon the laughter that surely permeates the air in the process (Many fold). :thumbsup:
OTC protocals? Whatever...
Some supplements have their place (IN) PCT, but in NO WAY should one be the BASIS of PCT. SERM(period)
 
lennoxchi

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FWIW many folks do not like to toy with the legal gray area that is research chemicals
WOW, Usf97j4x4......i have read many of your posts, and your quite knowledgeable on many subjects, you know your stuff. but i have to ask you to check your estro level ASAP(i say that out of concern) WTF are you talking about? Many folks? who, no one i know. i'm not trying to piss you off, or talk down or bad about you, but dam man, if we start telling people who are taking sdrol or whatever that OTC works for most cycles, we might wind up with a bunch of newbies w/"chest-tecules". listen my point is this, and always has been, have a serm first, use it if you need to, not just because you have it. OTC does not work for all compounds, not all people, not all the time.
 
Trauma1

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OTC protocals? Whatever...
Some supplements have their place (IN) PCT, but in NO WAY should one be the BASIS of PCT. SERM(period)
I know, but the "guru" said we didn't know what we're doing. :lol:

Sad, on so many levels.

Edit: Not only that, but he altered a PM after making fun of dsade's "Russell The Mussell". Class all the way there.....:thumbsup:
 
Iron Lungz

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I know, but the "guru" said we didn't know what we're doing. :lol:

Sad, on so many levels.

Edit: Not only that, but he altered a PM after making fun of dsade's "Russell The Mussell". Class all the way there.....:thumbsup:
Altered - WTF?
That's not cool.

And about the gray area of RC... I hope you realize that most of the products that are repped for CEL fall in to that gray area. Hell, everything is gray in the BB world!
 
Trauma1

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Altered - WTF?
That's not cool.

And about the gray area of RC... I hope you realize that most of the products that are repped for CEL fall in to that gray area. Hell, everything is gray in the BB world!
Yeah, and i can prove it, that's the best part. This clown made fun of a childrens book (Russel The Mussel). Wow!
 
lennoxchi

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Not everyone is strong enough to be a father, or possibly try to understand anything about kids. signing off now, to spend sometime with my daughter, and put her to bed.
 
Trauma1

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Just being a b*tch must be hard...
I mean, who knocks a educational kids book? :think:
The best part is he screwed up to no end in the process. He altered the thought in my bracket when it was supposed to be in his as a "savior" response.

What a gem man. :lol:
 
Trauma1

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That being said I've seen bloodwork results from OTC PCT recovering from SD and M1T cycles. I do bloodwork before and after every cycle I run and have never had an issue. I use OTC products 90% of the time. It is possible. Your out of your skull if you think otherwise.
Where's the proof prophet?

We still have yet to see your seemingly failed "points" of reference........
 
raginfcktard

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by your avi trauma...you need some sperm..ahem SERM i mean
 
slow-mun

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Where's the proof prophet?

We still have yet to see your seemingly failed "points" of reference........
I think he's referring to Voodoo's results on another site. I'm not going to touch this one too much, but I've gone both ways with harsh compounds. SERMs vs. OTC is like night and day as Jayhawk said earlier(with SERMs being the best route to take). I'd also probably say that people should wait and see if there ever is any bloodwork from someone who is not affiliated with a supplement company before claiming a new OTC product with old ingredients works. Just my $00.02 about everything.
 
Trauma1

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I think he's referring to Voodoo's results on another site. I'm not going to touch this one too much, but I've gone both ways with harsh compounds. SERMs vs. OTC is like night and day as Jayhawk said earlier(with SERMs being the best route to take). I'd also probably say that people should wait and see if there ever is any bloodwork from someone who is not affiliated with a supplement company before claiming a new OTC product with old ingredients works. Just my $00.02 about everything.
Agreed sol.
 
poopypants

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I personally would advocate the use of a SERM. If someone has a problem using a grey area PCT regimen then they should have the same problem using a grey area product period, that being anabolic steroids and prohormones. I prefer to do it ALL the way everytime. Can it be done and equilibrium achieved without a SERM and use OTC? yes. Can one do NOTHING and achieve equilibruim? eventually and possibly yes. But at what cost?

I for one would prefer to get it done fast, get it done for sure and most importantly maintain all my hard earned gains. Not to mention the health BENIFITS of using a SERM like restoring the lipids... even if at a VERY LOW exposure of toxins to your liver... people do much worse in a weekend with alchohol.

Im not going to get into the argument that has transpired before this BUT I feel that an OTC PCT has its place (ie, superdrol NG and MMV2 run at rec length and doses or after a pulse) but if one has to question then there is no question. Better safe then sorry... I wasnt safe after SD and was sorry... been paying for it ever since.
 
Usf97j4x4

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I guess I was mistaken. It's probably best to use a SERM for harsher cycles. Just because I personally have recovered fine using OTC methods does not mean it works for everyone.

Also, I never argued that a SERM worked better by any means. I have yet to find anything that brings me back faster than clomid, torem, etc.
 
Usf97j4x4

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I think he's referring to Voodoo's results on another site. I'm not going to touch this one too much, but I've gone both ways with harsh compounds. SERMs vs. OTC is like night and day as Jayhawk said earlier(with SERMs being the best route to take). I'd also probably say that people should wait and see if there ever is any bloodwork from someone who is not affiliated with a supplement company before claiming a new OTC product with old ingredients works. Just my $00.02 about everything.
See my post above. I concur with this. I also agree that Voo's bloodwork is questionable as he is in fact a rep of the company. This was not my sole referral.

I base my results on my bloodwork pre/post from my cycles. Admittedly I only test free and total and dont go after LH, FSH values and the like. Bloodwork is pretty expensive, especially when you fork out the cash for a cycle.

There is no argument about the night and day difference between SERMs and OTC. My argument was more oriented towards the possibility of recovery with OTC products. I agree you'll feel a HELL of a lot better on a SERM and it will do the job in a much shorter time.
 
Usf97j4x4

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Altered - WTF?
That's not cool.

And about the gray area of RC... I hope you realize that most of the products that are repped for CEL fall in to that gray area. Hell, everything is gray in the BB world!
I agree with you completely...

You have to understand though, our products (however questionable they may be) are intended for human consumption. Research chemicals are not. I agree that there are a lot of grey areas in BB, especially when it comes to "prohormones" and "designer steroids."
 
Usf97j4x4

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The best part is he screwed up to no end in the process. He altered the thought in my bracket when it was supposed to be in his as a "savior" response.

What a gem man. :lol:
I did nothing of the sort. Nor was I making fun of Russel. I think Russel is pretty good outside the box thinking as I commented originally in the first post about Russel.

I assumed by your relationship to RPN it might have been a funny avatar idea but I guess my assumption of your sense of humor was a bit of an oversight.

The thing is, I stated an opinion saying that OTC recovery is possible. I never said it was better than a SERM, nor did I say it was possible for every cycle. I said "most cycles" as in mildly suppressived PHs. Would I run an OTC PCT for superdrol, m1t or bold? Definitely not, especially because for the harsher PH cycles an OTC PCT, if it did work for the individual, would cost a hell of a lot more than a SERM would.

You and your boy trip jumped me on this, just like you've jumped everyone who's shared this opinion. Sending nasty PMs and negative reps full of profanity really don't bother me all that much. The irony is you spoke of professionalism earlier. That's why my responses back to you have been tongue and cheek.

I really have no issue with you two though.

Being new on this board I had no idea how touchy of a subject SERM use was. In the future I will swallow my opinions.

I also want to address your other concern for the last time... my opinion on SERMs has nothing to do with selling products... it is simply a personal opinion. I could see how you would assume bias if CEL sold numerous PCT products but we dont. We sell cycle assist and PH clones. We are not in the business to make stand alone PCT products like iForce and whoever else. The reason is that there is no standalone PCT product that would work for every cycle, and this I will argue to no end.
 
Usf97j4x4

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I personally would advocate the use of a SERM. If someone has a problem using a grey area PCT regimen then they should have the same problem using a grey area product period, that being anabolic steroids and prohormones.
Poppy, I agree with you... however as I previously stated prohormones and designer steroids are intended for human consumption whereas research chemicals are not. Just a taste of liquid clomid makes you think twice even giving it to a lab rat.

I would say the average consumer gets a better warm fuzzy with a legally purchased, for human consumption encapsulated product versus ordering from a research chemical site with a disclaimer a mile long.
 
Usf97j4x4

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Altered - WTF?
That's not cool.

And about the gray area of RC... I hope you realize that most of the products that are repped for CEL fall in to that gray area. Hell, everything is gray in the BB world!
Thanks for picking up my spelling error on that one. It's a pretty common error although believe it or not the use of "gray" is accepted these days, even in some formal writing.
 
Usf97j4x4

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Just being a b*tch must be hard...
I mean, who knocks a educational kids book? :think:
Don't play into the schoolyard mentality here. I wasn't knocking it, it was a joke in response to one of trauma's nastygrams. Go look at the russel thread, I was one of the first ones saying how great of an idea it was.
 

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