Will Israel Attack Iran? - AnabolicMinds.com

Will Israel Attack Iran?

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    Will Israel Attack Iran?


    Will Israel Attack Iran?
    Dennis Prager
    Tuesday, July 22, 2008

    It is difficult to imagine Israel attacking Iran.

    It is, however, more difficult to imagine Israel not attacking Iran.

    Consider three questions:

    First, does Iran mean what it says about destroying Israel? When its leaders repeatedly call for Israel's annihilation, after referring to it as a cancer and using other rhetoric not heard on a national level since the Nazi regime's depiction of Jews, is this just rhetorical flourish? Or do they really hope and plan to destroy Israel?

    Second, can Iran do it? One can hope and even plan to do something outrageous, but that does not necessarily mean that one can accomplish it. So, the second question is whether Iran can destroy Israel or at least murder a high enough percentage of its population and destroy enough of its infrastructure to enable surrounding Arab states to invade and do the rest of the job that the majority of Arabs favor (even if some of their governments have a peace treaty with Israel).

    It seems to me that the answers to the first two questions are so obvious that any burden of proof rests on those who argue otherwise. Do they think Iranian leaders are bluffing? Why would these leaders bluff? And why would one think they are bluffing given their faith-based hatred of Israel? I write "faith-based" not to argue that Islam necessarily demands the destruction of the Jewish state, but because that is what the Iranian leaders believe Islam demands.

    Iran is ruled by people who believe it is God's will to destroy the Jewish state. It is also a country rapidly acquiring the ability to use nuclear weapons to achieve this goal -- through direct attack, handing nuclear weapons to terrorists or both.

    There has never been a hatred as deep as Jew-hatred nor is there one today. And hatred of the Jewish state is similarly unparalleled. The depth of Iran's hatred for Israel was made evident again last week in a story from the Olympic swim trials in Croatia. The Iranian government ordered its athlete not to participate when it learned that one of the other swimmers was a Jew from Israel. There are no nationals other than Israeli Jews with whom nationals of another nation would refuse to enter a swimming pool.

    This unique hatred explains why the forms of deterrence that have worked in the past do not seem applicable to the Iranian regime. The most obvious one, the one that rendered nuclear war highly improbable during the Cold War, was MAD, Mutually Assured Destruction. MAD was so simple a child could understand it: You bomb me; I bomb you. Our people die en masse; your people die en masse. No matter how vile the Soviet regime was, MAD worked because Soviet leaders wanted to live.

    But MAD works only with the sane.

    We regard a defining element of sanity as the desire to live. And we regard a defining element of morality as the valuing of human life. Neither applies to Islamists such as those who govern Iran. Their motto, as so often expressed by its Hamas and Hezbollah allies, is "We value death as much as you [Jews, Americans, Westerners in general] value life." For people like Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the vision of millions of Iranian Muslims dying from a counterstrike while Israel burns is not frightening; it is a necessary sacrifice.

    If the answers to the first two questions are as clearly in the affirmative as I have argued, the only remaining question is whether Israel or anyone else can stop these plans from materializing.

    The one nonviolent way of doing so is sanctions. A worldwide vise of economic, social and political sanctions against the Iranian regime should be tried and might work. That is certainly my first choice and, one presumes, Israel's as well.

    But it now appears unlikely that the world is willing to suffocate the Iranian regime as it did the South African apartheid regime. Iran has oil; South Africa had none. Iran has worldwide support from Muslim regimes, which do not threaten a fellow Muslim regime, especially over its being too anti-Israel; South Africa had virtually no such allies. Iran has almost automatic support from at least two Security Council members, Russia and China; South Africa had no equivalent support. And much of the world is more exercised about white racism against blacks than about genocidal threats against Jews.

    Therefore, if the world does not unite in ostracizing the Iranian regime, there remains only one other way to stop it from attempting to destroy Israel -- destroy its nuclear facilities.

    There are strong arguments against Israel doing so. But if Israel believes that Iran will soon have the ability to attack it with nuclear weapons, and that Iran will do so, it is difficult to argue that Israel wait and run the risk of experiencing another Holocaust.
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    Yes, I believe Israel will attack BEFORE the Russian s-300 is delivered to Iran. It was expected this year, but Russia had delayed until next year.
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1004840.html

    The Bush Administration also reassured Barack that the US's stance against Iran has NOT softened, so it may be a joint venture to destroy Nuclear development.

    The Russian alliance with Iran (as well as other Middle East countries) is inevitable and their MAIN goal is to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth as well as the "Great Satan" (USA). This is what unites them, and the President of Iran feels he is "called" to do this.
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    I think this is a bit short sighted. DOes Iran want to, well if they did they might have attempted already or are waiting for some allies to help.

    Now, can they? On their own, absolutely not. If Iran was foolish enough to attempt an attack on Israel, the IDF would level Iran to a brand new type of hell. However, if Russia for example were to help, that would be a different kettle of fish altogether.

    At the end of the day we need to make a decision about our alegiance to Israel. Is it worth the possibility of war with Russia and even to a lesser extent China?

    As someone born and raised Jewish, with family in Israel, it is a tough question to answer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    However, if Russia for example were to help, that would be a different kettle of fish altogether.
    Russia IS helping them.
    They are supplying material and armiment to Iran.

    At the end of the day we need to make a decision about our alegiance to Israel. Is it worth the possibility of war with Russia and even to a lesser extent China?

    As someone born and raised Jewish, with family in Israel, it is a tough question to answer
    If I have a say in the decision, we should STAND with Israel.

    Politically--They are a recognized nation state and should be supported by the US. Our nation had no problem going to war over Kuwait, why should we turn our head when they are threatened by tyrants. The Jewish people have suffered slavery, hardship, hatred, and genocide since Biblical times. I believe they deserve their own nation.

    Reaper, I was raised in a Christian home and still believe in the Bible to this day. My parents showed me this passage of scripture years ago...
    "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)

    Nuff said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotTest View Post
    Russia IS helping them.
    They are supplying material and armiment to Iran.


    If I have a say in the decision, we should STAND with Israel.

    Politically--They are a recognized nation state and should be supported by the US. Our nation had no problem going to war over Kuwait, why should we turn our head when they are threatened by tyrants. The Jewish people have suffered slavery, hardship, hatred, and genocide since Biblical times. I believe they deserve their own nation.

    Reaper, I was raised in a Christian home and still believe in the Bible to this day. My parents showed me this passage of scripture years ago...
    "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)
    Nuff said.
    I am a Christian, and I believe in the Bible as well. But I have a question to ask you:

    How many of the people in Israel today are Hebrews ie. Semetic descendants of Abraham? Clearly the promise that you quoted into the Bible was made to Abraham who is the ancestor of two groups of people: The covenant people, and possibly the Hebrews.

    The Covenant people are today Christians, as Christ is the New Covenant.

    The Hebrews are the genetic descendants of Abraham, and the world was blessed through these people, via Christ.

    All that being said, how many Jews in Israel are just people who converted to Judaism hundreds of years ago, and not actual semetic peoples?

    Just things to think about when pondering the possibilites of going to war with the whole world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    I am a Christian, and I believe in the Bible as well. But I have a question to ask you:

    How many of the people in Israel today are Hebrews ie. Semetic descendants of Abraham? Clearly the promise that you quoted into the Bible was made to Abraham who is the ancestor of two groups of people: The covenant people, and possibly the Hebrews.

    The Covenant people are today Christians, as Christ is the New Covenant.

    The Hebrews are the genetic descendants of Abraham, and the world was blessed through these people, via Christ.
    I agree with this statement, but I think you're leaning a little out of context from my point of Israel as a nation (as the scripture is quoted):
    "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)

    Yes, Christians have been "grafted into the vine" through Christ and have the same blessings bestowed upon us through Christ. Agreed.

    But don't forget, the "Promised Land" (follow me?)
    The "land of Israel" is a key part of ALL Bible prophecy.
    I could go on and on about this topic...
    (Wow, am I really on a "muscle board" )
    Just things to think about when pondering the possibilites of going to war with the whole world.
    I am seeing this same thought pattern when it comes to standing behind Israel. When I was younger, most had a "protect Israel" mentality.
    Now it seems most would rather turn their back to avoid conflict.
    However this only makes sense, because Bible prophecy states that Israel will stand alone against their enemy. Well not exactly "alone"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post

    The Covenant people are today Christians, as Christ is the New Covenant.
    not to get off on a religious rant, but this is debateable at best. There is a reason that million sof Muslims believe they are the 3rd covenant, and millions of Jews think they are still the first and only covenant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    not to get off on a religious rant, but this is debateable at best. There is a reason that million sof Muslims believe they are the 3rd covenant, and millions of Jews think they are still the first and only covenant
    agreed, this is the sticking point.

    I was just addressing the idea of the US's Christian based support of Israel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GotTest View Post
    I agree with this statement, but I think you're leaning a little out of context from my point of Israel as a nation (as the scripture is quoted):
    "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." (Genesis 12:2-3)

    Yes, Christians have been "grafted into the vine" through Christ and have the same blessings bestowed upon us through Christ. Agreed.

    But don't forget, the "Promised Land" (follow me?)
    The "land of Israel" is a key part of ALL Bible prophecy.
    I could go on and on about this topic...
    (Wow, am I really on a "muscle board" )

    I am seeing this same thought pattern when it comes to standing behind Israel. When I was younger, most had a "protect Israel" mentality.
    Now it seems most would rather turn their back to avoid conflict.
    However this only makes sense, because Bible prophecy states that Israel will stand alone against their enemy. Well not exactly "alone"
    You will not find any disagreement with me concerning the importance of Israel in these days. No doubt that the geographical location of Israel is one of the upmost prophetic importance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    agreed, this is the sticking point.

    I was just addressing the idea of the US's Christian based support of Israel.
    I understand, and no dispute there. It is funny to listen to "firm" believers, as they truly do believe they are the covenant.

    I was born Jewish and over time have become more Buddhist in my beliefs, and I gotta be honest, the covenant issue was never a big one for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    I understand, and no dispute there. It is funny to listen to "firm" believers, as they truly do believe they are the covenant.

    I was born Jewish and over time have become more Buddhist in my beliefs, and I gotta be honest, the covenant issue was never a big one for me.
    Don't get me wrong, I believe in the New Covenant personally, but this is just a matter of faith for me, I do not begrudge any Jewish person or Muslim for believing as they do.

    Out of sheer curiosity though, if you turned on the television and saw Jewish Rabbi's proclaiming the ar***** of the Messiah what would be your thoughts on the matter?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadof2 View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I believe in the New Covenant personally, but this is just a matter of faith for me, I do not begrudge any Jewish person or Muslim for believing as they do.

    Out of sheer curiosity though, if you turned on the television and saw Jewish Rabbi's proclaiming the ar***** of the Messiah what would be your thoughts on the matter?
    thats an interesting question. I remember being a kid in hebrew school and the rabbi told me a messiah was going to come. Now being an a$$ of a kid I asked for a time and date, and said "we can do lunch".

    However, if today I saw that, I would probably feel sorry for the rabbi. I am very cynical in these matters, and highly doubt that any supreme being would be getting involved in this way, considering all the writings talking of free will and all.

    Good question though!!!
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    In the red corner: Iran, Russia and China

    In the blue corner: Israel, USA, Britain

    There is still a degree of MAD - the Iranians will not attack as long as Russia and China are allies.
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    In response to the Jewish convert question. Jewish law, which I think even Christians believe is the word of God, says that converts should be discouraged from converting, as there's no need for a non-Jew to convert, he only has to follow the 7 Noahide laws. But if someone insists on conversion, they should be welcomed, and honored, because the convert is more sincere than the born Jew: he seeked it out, and chose it.

    Jews through conversion or intermarriage (Jewish woman being married or raped by non-Jew) is still a Jew, according to the Torah.

    <<<Jewish convert.
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    With religion aside, this is an interesting debate just from a foreign policy standpoint. It raises many interesting questions. The first one being this. Do we stand with a nation (Israel) that we have sworn to defend as allies or do we turn our backs on them because we are afraid of offending the Russians or Chinese?

    If we did turn our back on them, what does that say to our other allies? Mainly the members of NATO? What does that also say to our enemies? I firmly believe that the long term repercussions of turning our back on an ally are far worse than any that could occur by standing with a nation that has for years been our only "friend" in the region.
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    Well, ask Georgia how they, as our ally right now, feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Well, ask Georgia how they, as our ally right now, feel.
    I've been reading about that some today. That really has the potential to get messy.

    I know people have said it before, but Putin really scares me. I saw coverage of their Mayday parade this year and it reminded me of the mid 80's with all pomp and circumstance of those huge military parades.
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    inshahallah ...lol



    Yes, hopefully they will attack and we will of course join in. I think the US is doing a misinformation campaign, distancing itself from Israel and the idea of attacking Iran.

    The way Syria has been working with North Korea and Iran on nuclear activities and the recent take over of two peaks in Lebanon by Hizballah, means Israel is now between the hammer and the anval.
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    This is somehow connected:

    Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

    DEBKAfile Exclusive Report

    August 8, 2008

    Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital of breakaway South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, early Friday, Aug. 8, bringing the Georgian-Russian conflict over the province to a military climax.

    Russian prime minister Vladimir Putin threatened a “military response.”

    Former Soviet Georgia called up its military reserves after Russian warplanes bombed its new positions in the renegade province.

    In Moscow’s first response to the fall of Tskhinvali, president Dimitry Medvedev ordered the Russian army to prepare for a national emergency after calling the UN Security Council into emergency session early Friday.

    Reinforcements were rushed to the Russian “peacekeeping force” present in the region to support the separatists.

    Georgian tanks entered the capital after heavy overnight heavy aerial strikes, in which dozens of people were killed.

    Lado Gurgenidze, Georgia's prime minister, said on Friday that Georgia will continue its military operation in South Ossetia until a "durable peace" is reached. "As soon as a durable peace takes hold we need to move forward with dialogue and peaceful negotiations."

    DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.

    The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

    Saakashvili need only back away from this plan for Moscow to ditch the two provinces’ revolt against Tbilisi. As long as he sticks to his guns, South Ossetia and Abkhazia will wage separatist wars.

    DEBKAfile discloses Israel’s interest in the conflict from its exclusive military sources:

    Jerusalem owns a strong interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines reach the Turkish terminal port of Ceyhan, rather than the Russian network. Intense negotiations are afoot between Israel Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan and Azarbaijan for pipelines to reach Turkey and thence to Israel’s oil terminal at Ashkelon and on to its Red Sea port of Eilat. From there, supertankers can carry the gas and oil to the Far East through the Indian Ocean.

    Aware of Moscow’s sensitivity on the oil question, Israel offered Russia a stake in the project but was rejected.

    Last year, the Georgian president commissioned from private Israeli security firms several hundred military advisers, estimated at up to 1,000, to train the Georgian armed forces in commando, air, sea, armored and artillery combat tactics. They also offer instruction on military intelligence and security for the central regime. Tbilisi also purchased weapons, intelligence and electronic warfare systems from Israel.

    These advisers were undoubtedly deeply involved in the Georgian army’s preparations to conquer the South Ossetian capital Friday.

    In recent weeks, Moscow has repeatedly demanded that Jerusalem halt its military assistance to Georgia, finally threatening a crisis in bilateral relations. Israel responded by saying that the only assistance rendered Tbilisi was “defensive.”

    This has not gone down well in the Kremlin. Therefore, as the military crisis intensifies in South Ossetia, Moscow may be expected to punish Israel for its intervention.
    If true, what are the israeli 'consultants' learning about russian military gear and defenses? This is the same stuff Iran has.

    Is russia saying 'stop threatening Iran, our ally, or we'll **** with yours, georgia?
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    Damn things are getting messy, only to get worse
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakellpet View Post
    Damn things are getting messy, only to get worse
    Its does get worse.

    elp
    Ukraine says it reserves right to bar Russian navy

    Sun Aug 10, 6:26 AM ET

    Ukraine warned Russia on Sunday it could bar Russian navy ships from returning to their base in the Crimea because of their deployment to Georgia's coast.

    Ukraine's Foreign Ministry said the deployment of a Russian naval squadron to Georgia's Black sea coast has the potential of drawing Ukraine into the conflict.

    "In order to prevent the circumstances in which Ukraine could be drawn into a military conflict ... Ukraine reserves the right to bar ships which may take part in these actions from returning to the Ukrainian territory until the conflict is solved," said the statement which was posted on the ministry's Web site.

    Both Ukraine and Georgia have sought to free themselves of Russia's influence, integrate into the West and join NATO.

    The statement reflected a strong Ukrainian support for Georgia and is certain to anger Moscow, further straining Russian-Ukrainian relations.

    Russia's deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn said Sunday he was aware of the statement, but added that the Russian government must analyze it before making comment.

    "It makes a third party involved, and it's quite unexpected," Nogovitsyn said said at a news conference.

    A 1997 agreement between Russia and Ukraine lets the Black Sea Fleet remain in Sevastopol through 2017, but Ukrainian officials have said they want it out after that. The issue adds to emotions over Crimea, which was part of the Russian Federation but ceded to Ukraine during the Soviet era and became part of the independent Ukraine when the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.

    Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
    Copyright © 2008 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
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    Awesome! Who else is in for the Russian gang-bang? Pile on folks!

    Seriously, Russia can take the whole region, but seriously, **** Russia. Putin is still in the Cold war, it never ended, and much of their political agenda is based on irritating the US/West, like backing anyone who opposes the WEST (think Iran, China, Hizbullah, Syria), or ****ing with our allies (see Israel, Georgia, etc). Georgia wanted in NATO, so Russia says 'screw you'.

    I mean really. Go to hell, Russia. I back anyone who's willing to spit in Russias eye.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Seriously, Russia can take the whole region, but seriously, **** Russia. Putin is still in the Cold war, it never ended, and much of their political agenda is based on irritating the US/West, like backing anyone who opposes the WEST (think Iran, China, Hizbullah, Syria), or ****ing with our allies (see Israel, Georgia, etc). Georgia wanted in NATO, so Russia says 'screw you'.

    This is sooo true poison! Putin's agenda is to bring Russia back to the old regime of total control and expanding Russia's territory. As President he eliminated the voting of Governors and appointed them instead, and stated that the "Worst thing to happen in this century was the loss of power of the Kremlin"
    Take notice who is doing all the "talking" for Russia. NOT the President, but the Prime Minister...Putin.
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