Michael Moore Schools The Wolf !!!

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    Talking Michael Moore Schools The Wolf !!!



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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino View Post
    now i can understand why michael moore wants subsidized healthcare. hes so fat and out of shape he would have to pay a fortune if he had to pay it himeself.

    and speaking of wait times, i had to go to the doctor today (family practitioner) i called at 7:30am to make an appointment and saw the doctor today at 9:00am. thats some wait time
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino View Post
    Moore is a damn pinko for sure but you're right, he DESTROYED Wolf in that clip. It was pretty embarrassing to watch.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spunkles182 View Post
    now i can understand why michael moore wants subsidized healthcare. hes so fat and out of shape he would have to pay a fortune if he had to pay it himeself.


    LMFAO!
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    I firstly want to say PWNED! and then secondly ....what's a pinko
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    michael moore is nothing more than an extreme leftist commie pinko that excels at making propaganda movies.

    even with the troubles the healthcare system has, where would anyone rather be than america when they have a true health problem?

    i apologize if i offend anyone, but I cant stand that guy
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    Er, Michael Moore's not that extreme. I'd be willing to do a comparison between him and the other pundits you can think of. People who put Moore as the left equivalent of Ann Coulter are tripping. Michael Moore is basically the left wing equivalent of Glenn Beck. "Bush sucks," "American culture romanticizes violence and we should have some gun control," and "universal health care is good" are not fringe extremist ideas. Moore does misrepresent several facts and makes trumped up conspiracy theories to make his case, but who doesn't? Moore's degree of bias is pretty standard among pundits. The two times I think Moore really stepped out of line were using that kid to boycott Wal-Mart in Bowling for Columbine and the claim in Faranheit 9/11 where he said something to the effect of Iraq having never taken one American life.


    Moore is a pundit, therefore he makes biased argumenents. But let's not pretend that he's much worse than all the other pundits out there. He's not calling for anything like genocide or a massive restriction of civil liberties.
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    You guys may hate more but I find his films refreshing and a good representative of the state of the country, more so than the evening news!

    *Note* I am a Brit living in Canada so I don't truly know what it's like, you guys live it
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    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    You guys may hate more but I find his films refreshing and a good representative of the state of the country, more so than the evening news!

    *Note* I am a Brit living in Canada so I don't truly know what it's like, you guys live it
    I am an American who has lived in several parts of the world, including Europe and South America, and I think Moore is an American hero.

    Many Americans, like some on this forum, are in denial about the state of our country. They've been so brainwashed into thinking we are the greatest country on the face of this earth, that there is no room for improvement or criticism.

    They are so backwards in their thinking that they denounce anybody who doesn't think like them as "pinkos" or "commies", as if we were still living in Joseph McCarthy's 1950s.

    These are people who will wave the American flag as our president is pissing on the U.S. Constitution. Who are more apt to vote on American Idol than the Presidential Election. Who will fight for the freedoms of their corporate slave masters as they drown in debt in desperately trying to keep up appearances.

    They are the few. The proud. The 30 percenters who still support Bush because "he sticks to what he believes in" -- regardless of reality.

    They are our sheep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    I am an American who has lived in several parts of the world, including Europe and South America, and I think Moore is an American hero.
    Doesn't surprise me. Then there are people on this forum who thank god everyday we aren't like Europe and South America.

    Many Americans, like some on this forum, are in denial about the state of our country. They've been so brainwashed into thinking we are the greatest country on the face of this earth, that there is no room for improvement or criticism.
    It must work on all those illegal immigrants trying to come here as well. We are so good at brainwashing our own citizens, we can actually extend it to other countries as well.




    They are so backwards in their thinking that they denounce anybody who doesn't think like them as "pinkos" or "commies", as if we were still living in Joseph McCarthy's 1950s.
    Funny, I don't think its the conservatives who call Bush Hitler...

    Its not the right wing that wants to shut down talk radio because the left can't hang. Its so funny you liberals talk about rights and free speech...as long as its speech you agree with. If not, you want it regulated. Hypocrites.

    These are people who will wave the American flag as our president is pissing on the U.S. Constitution.
    That was 85% of the public in 2002. Pissing on the Constitution? Yeah, he's restricted so many things in my life. I can't do nearly as much as I did back in 2000. Its so oppressive in this country...

    What a joke.

    Who are more apt to vote on American Idol than the Presidential Election.


    Who will fight for the freedoms of their corporate slave masters as they drown in debt in desperately trying to keep up appearances.
    My debt is just fine. But maybe I'm brainwashed to tihnk that.

    They are the few. The proud. The 30 percenters who still support Bush because "he sticks to what he believes in" -- regardless of reality.
    Kind of like the 26% who approve of that great Democratic Congress. They are doing a splendid job. All talk, no walk. That Pelosi is doing a GREAT job! Ask Cindy Sheehan!

    They are our sheep.
    Funny, I can't remember the last liberal President. Oh that must of been Carter..who had a worse rating than Bush WITHOUT a war.





    According to people like you, the world is ending, America is crumbling and everyone is sheep. America is to blame, we aren't that great of a country, its always our fault, and France is heaven on Earth. Adieu!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by spunkles182 View Post
    now i can understand why michael moore wants subsidized healthcare. hes so fat and out of shape he would have to pay a fortune if he had to pay it himeself.

    and speaking of wait times, i had to go to the doctor today (family practitioner) i called at 7:30am to make an appointment and saw the doctor today at 9:00am. thats some wait time
    Oh come on! You are just sheep! You are brainwashed! You didn't see your doctor that fast...you just THOUGHT you did!!!
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    Kind of like the 26% who approve of that great Democratic Congress.
    Gallup has it @ 14%.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Doesn't surprise me. Then there are people on this forum who thank god everyday we aren't like Europe and South America.


    Yeah, thank God we don't have the greater sex and drug related freedom of places in Europe or the real democracy of Latin America where you can be elected to a high office without tons of corporate sponsors helping you along.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    It must work on all those illegal immigrants trying to come here as well. We are so good at brainwashing our own citizens, we can actually extend it to other countries as well.

    Because we're the only country in the world with immigrants. And "greatest" is subjective. The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world. It does not have the highest standard of living, life expectancy, or degree of civil liberties.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Funny, I don't think its the conservatives who call Bush Hitler...

    Real conservatives would be against Bush's many radical policies. But yes, it goes both ways.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Its not the right wing that wants to shut down talk radio because the left can't hang. Its so funny you liberals talk about rights and free speech...as long as its speech you agree with. If not, you want it regulated. Hypocrites.


    Indeed, it was the right wing that protested the show Politcally Incorrect because it expressed views they disagreed with, and DID get it shut down for pointing out the obvious. And it's the nationalistic media that distorts the words of anyone who points out some of the less-than-noble aspects of US foreign policy.


    Both the left and the right do this. It's annoying that people have party loyalties that make them ignore the fact that both sides do the same thing and are devoted more to expanding their power and wealth than helping the citizens. National loyalty can blind someone's world view enough as it is without party loyalty.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    That was 85% of the public in 2002. Pissing on the Constitution? Yeah, he's restricted so many things in my life. I can't do nearly as much as I did back in 2000. Its so oppressive in this country...

    Maybe you have not been affected personally by the roll back on privacy, due process of law, etc. but other people have been. Some have been tortured in internment camps without charges just for suspicion of treason, eventually being let out because there was no proof.


    But for the most part, yeah the US is pretty free on the world scale. Not as free as most of Europe, but it's a great place to live and it's easier to make money here than in many other countries. It's what the US leaders do to the rest of the world that is oppressive.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Funny, I can't remember the last liberal President. Oh that must of been Carter..who had a worse rating than Bush WITHOUT a war.

    Mainly because he didn't BS about the state of the economy and he had conservative foreign policy which stressed diplomatic solutions over killing thousands of civilians. Actually I don't see how liberal Carter even was. He was in fact the president who made it standard to mix politics and religion.

    Both his deficit and his international body count were markedly lower than Reagan's, however. It's funny how the evil liberal media pretty much gave Reagan a free pass after his assassination attempt. Lying about selling weapons to Iran and using the money to fund terrorists was given less attention than Clinton lying about his sex life or Bush Sr. lying about taxes.







    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    According to people like you, the world is ending, America is crumbling and everyone is sheep. America is to blame, we aren't that great of a country, its always our fault, and France is heaven on Earth. Adieu!!!

    While according to people like you, American leaders are always noble and heroic in their foreign policy unlike leaders everywhere else in the world, they never put power interests over the lives of civilians, it's evil to criticize America but hating France is okay, we'd care just as much about Iraq if its main source of income was exporting coconuts instead of oil, and everyone in the world who thinks otherwise is just jealous of America.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
    Yeah, thank God we don't have the greater sex and drug related freedom of places in Europe or the real democracy of Latin America where you can be elected to a high office without tons of corporate sponsors helping you along.
    Yeah, their taxation and economic policy is going to bankrupt the continent. Real smart over there.

    Latin America's track record is something to celebrate







    Because we're the only country in the world with immigrants. And "greatest" is subjective. The US is the richest, most powerful country in the world. It does not have the highest standard of living, life expectancy, or degree of civil liberties.

    Yeah, I see Western Europe and Latin America with a real immigrant problem...oh thats right, they all come here.









    Real conservatives would be against Bush's many radical policies. But yes, it goes both ways.
    And many are.








    Indeed, it was the right wing that protested the show Politcally Incorrect because it expressed views they disagreed with, and DID get it shut down for pointing out the obvious. And it's the nationalistic media that distorts the words of anyone who points out some of the less-than-noble aspects of US foreign policy.
    Really? What "right wing" shut down politically incorrect? They must have "The Daily Show" and "Countdown" targeted now. They also must have NBC, CBS and ABC targeted as well. I can't wait to shut them all down...
    Both the left and the right do this. It's annoying that people have party loyalties that make them ignore the fact that both sides do the same thing and are devoted more to expanding their power and wealth than helping the citizens. National loyalty can blind someone's world view enough as it is without party loyalty.
    Thats stating the obvious but I also study the world view and most of the time they criticize us while their own country is in shambles....or their irrelevant.




    Maybe you have not been affected personally by the roll back on privacy, due process of law, etc. but other people have been. Some have been tortured in internment camps without charges just for suspicion of treason, eventually being let out because there was no proof.
    Every government in the world does this and their isn't a government in the world, except the US, that has passed legslation stating that parts of the Geneva Convention apply to non citizens. France, England, Germany or any Middle Eastern have nothing even close.


    But for the most part, yeah the US is pretty free on the world scale. Not as free as most of Europe, but it's a great place to live and it's easier to make money here than in many other countries. It's what the US leaders do to the rest of the world that is oppressive.

    Really? England, France and most of western Europe tax more than the US. THey have more video and surveillance cameras in public spots wathcing you than the US by far. Their surveillance of the general public is MUCH more than US ever will. England and France both have legislation that gives the government the right to video and listen to you conversations for the protection of the people.....and its been in play for a long time.

    "Public Video Surveillance in Other Countries

    Canada began operating CCTV video surveillance on public streets and areas 5 years ago. Although its use is not as widespread as in the United Kingdom, CCTV surveillance is utilized by Canadian banks, restaurants and convenience stores, and at industrial sites, offices, apartment buildings, and public transit stations. In 1995, 70 percent of all bank robberies in Canada were recorded on CCTV surveillance systems. CCTV surveillance tapes captured 75 percent of all crimes which were investigated by law enforcement or private security. CCTV video cameras in commercial areas have also been instrumental in helping to find missing persons.32

    Canadian customs agents systematically record by video the license number of every car crossing the busier boarder crossings to the United States. The British Columbia Highway Ministry even keeps video records of every car that passes through its highway toll booths. Commentators predict that CCTV surveillance will grow dramatically as a crime prevention tool in Canada in the coming years.

    The type of surveillance (active or passive) makes an important difference. Several Canadian studies show that unmonitored cameras are one of the least effective deterrents to robberies in banks and convenience stores. A spokesperson for the Peel Regional Police in Brampton, Ontario questions whether unmonitored CCTV will deter burglaries on school property (the presence of expensive and easily removed computer equipment is attractive to professional burglars).33

    In France, wiretapping and electronic and video surveillance are illegal if used to uncover information about a person's sexual life or personal finances, but are permissible for spying on a person's business or political activity.34 Because of recent terrorist activity, the French government now permits electronic and CCTV surveillance in public places, including monitoring major roads and city and urban public areas. For example, police officers have established a station in the Parisian suburb of Levallos-Perret to monitor 18 television screens connected to hundreds of CCTV cameras around the city.35 In the business and financial district of Paris, police monitor over 160 CCTV surveillance cameras which scan area streets 24 hours-a-day. The French cities of Enghein-Les Bains, Roubaix and Saint-Gratien also plan to install their own CCTV video surveillance systems.

    The French transportation system uses video surveillance on streets to regulate traffic flows, detect traffic jams, and to observe roadside disturbances. In Paris, for example, the Metro has installed 2,500 video cameras on municipal buses to identify criminal acts as they occur. A similar video surveillance system is operating on the national rapid transit (RATP), which has detected 83 percent of all criminal incidents; petty crime has declined as a result. French department stores now use video surveillance to observe all entering shoppers. Security at airline terminals includes monitored CCTV surveillance.

    In Ireland, CCTV video surveillance has been used by private companies since the mid-1980's to monitor post offices, shops, banks, building societies, and shopping malls. A privately owned security firm (Group 4 Securities) relies on CCTV video surveillance to protect the country's public and commercial rail system and its storage facilities, which have been subject to armed raids by local bandits. In an attempt to reduce increasing criminal activity, the Irish Department of Justice recently authorized CCTV surveillance cameras in several high profile downtown areas of Dublin and other selected town centers.36

    In Spain, the threat of terrorist attacks has caused extraordinary security measures to be taken by federal authorities, especially in tourist areas. The Spanish Interior Minister has also begun installing video surveillance equipment in public areas in the Basque region in an effort to combat street violence and politically motivated vandalism. According to news reports, a new law will regulate how police and judges may use CCTV surveillance to prosecute offenders. The law also gives citizens more information about surveillance methods and creates standards for access to video tapes.37

    The principality of Monaco (500,000 inhabitants) is monitored 24 hours-a-day by CCTV camera surveillance installed on buildings, rooftops, and street poles. A police spokesperson contends that if a crime is committed in Monaco and is not caught on camera, then the police are not doing their job. Ideally, video surveillance allows a crime to be prevented before it can be accomplished.38

    Russia relies on public video surveillance to protect private and state property such as banks, ATM teller machines, and state ministry buildings. Italy utilizes a limited form of CCTV video surveillance in public areas and government buildings in Rome, the Vatican, and other high profile tourist areas. Research indicates that public video surveillance is also used in China, Iran, and especially Iraq. In Iraq, video surveillance cameras are even hidden in public statues."





    Mainly because he didn't BS about the state of the economy and he had conservative foreign policy which stressed diplomatic solutions over killing thousands of civilians.
    You can't BS about the economy when you have citizend fighting at the gas pump.

    Those "diplomatic" solution worked real well with Iran (hsotages) and Israel (ask them how they feel about him).



    Both his deficit and his international body count were markedly lower than Reagan's, however. It's funny how the evil liberal media pretty much gave Reagan a free pass after his assassination attempt. Lying about selling weapons to Iran and using the money to fund terrorists was given less attention than Clinton lying about his sex life or Bush Sr. lying about taxes.
    We're you asleep during the 80's because he got POUNDED.









    While according to people like you, American leaders are always noble and heroic in their foreign policy unlike leaders everywhere else in the world, they never put power interests over the lives of civilians, it's evil to criticize America but hating France is okay, we'd care just as much about Iraq if its main source of income was exporting coconuts instead of oil, and everyone in the world who thinks otherwise is just jealous of America.

    People like me? Where did I ever say all American leaders are noble and heroic? Do you actually read what I post or does you generlaized view about everyone just force you to type your liberal talking points? There is a difference between criticizing your leaders and governement and accusing them of everything thats gone wrong in the world while stating Latin America and European are flourishing because of their leaders and government policy. Its just comical and flat out delusional. Their economies are completely sinking, their unemployment is almost double, their taxation system is archaic and their future in terms of economic progress is horrible.....

    Ask them about their freedoms when their entire country goes bankrupt and can't pay for anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Yeah, their taxation and economic policy is going to bankrupt the continent. Real smart over there.

    Latin America's track record is something to celebrate

    Who said anything about their economic policy? And they're poor to begin with, which isn't helped by drug cartels and foreign invasions. I mentioned their greater level of real democracy, nothing else.










    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Yeah, I see Western Europe and Latin America with a real immigrant problem...oh thats right, they all come here.

    Because immigration isn't one of the biggest issues for their politicians during elections means no one immigrates there? Great argument. And actually most illegal immigrants into America come from Cuba or Mexico because America's the closest.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Really? What "right wing" shut down politically incorrect? They must have "The Daily Show" and "Countdown" targeted now. They also must have NBC, CBS and ABC targeted as well. I can't wait to shut them all down...
    "Politically Incorrect" (1994) - Trivia

    "ABC cancelled the show even though its ratings were strong, and in some markets it was beating out "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno" (1992). Host Bill Maher has been quoted as saying it was because the politically conservative Walt Disney Corp., which owned ABC, didn't like his criticisms of the government of President George W. Bush."


    It was specifically stopped for this comment:

    "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly. Stupid maybe, but not cowardly."


    Which again goes back to my point about the nationalistic bias of the media.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Thats stating the obvious but I also study the world view and most of the time they criticize us while their own country is in shambles....or their irrelevant.

    A country being in shambles has little to do with its right to criticize foreign policy. For instance, the US isn't criticized for using veto power to prevent Israel from facing the consequences for recurring violations of international law just because other countries are jealous. I imagine most countries would also abused their power if they were the richest, most powerful country on Earth, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticized when it does happen.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post

    Every government in the world does this and their isn't a government in the world, except the US, that has passed legslation stating that parts of the Geneva Convention apply to non citizens. France, England, Germany or any Middle Eastern have nothing even close.

    Yes, but most of them tend to do it in secret. Bush has basically came out and declared that anyone claimed to be a "terrorist" can essentially be considered a non-entity and not subject to international law.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Really? England, France and most of western Europe tax more than the US.

    And most of Europe generally has better healthcare for the poor and longer lifespans. Here is a comparison of various levels of economic freedom between Europe and the US:

    http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...p4_TableC1.gif

    http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...p4_TableB1.gif


    I'm generally talking about actual civil liberties, for instance less oppressive attitudes towards sex and drugs, less censorship, etc.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    THey have more video and surveillance cameras in public spots wathcing you than the US by far. Their surveillance of the general public is MUCH more than US ever will. England and France both have legislation that gives the government the right to video and listen to you conversations for the protection of the people.....and its been in play for a long time.

    Yes, that much is true.






    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    You can't BS about the economy when you have citizend fighting at the gas pump.

    Sure you can. You can make some superficial tax cuts, keep spending money you don't have, and leave it to the next office to fix your mess.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Those "diplomatic" solution worked real well with Iran (hsotages) and Israel (ask them how they feel about him).

    The hostages got turned over, didn't they? Although that was done after Reagan sold them missiles in return for the hostages. Pure coincidence that they were released right after Carter's term ended. I wonder if you would've preferred hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians dead and risking the hostages being killed so we could have the satisfaction of showing Iran who's boss.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    We're you asleep during the 80's because he got POUNDED.

    I know he was pounded outside the mainstream media (and rightfully so) which went easy on him after the asssination attempt. But today he's considered some sort of messiah figure. When the History Channel goes over presidents, about the only thing they say bad about Reagan is his economic policy. Bush lying about taxes and Clinton lying about his sex life is popular as ever. Reagan getting caught on national TV reading off his instructions for denial or Iran Contra? Not so much.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    People like me? Where did I ever say all American leaders are noble and heroic? Do you actually read what I post or does you generlaized view about everyone just force you to type your liberal talking points?


    I was parodying your response, especially the way you threw in the O Reilly-esque France reference. And really it's sad to label me as a "liberal." I point out the faults of Democrats as much as Republicans. What I do is hold all world leaders, regardless of nationality or party affiliation to the same standard of scrutiny. It amuses me whenever someone calls it "liberal" to not be a blind nationalist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    There is a difference between criticizing your leaders and governement and accusing them of everything thats gone wrong in the world while stating Latin America and European are flourishing because of their leaders and government policy.

    Which ... I haven't done. I pointed out that Europe and Latin America are superior to the US in some areas.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Its just comical and flat out delusional. Their economies are completely sinking, their unemployment is almost double, their taxation system is archaic and their future in terms of economic progress is horrible.....

    Not according to the charts I posted above, but if you say so. What's comical and delusional is your seeming belief that the US is #1 in every single category and our leaders don't put power above civilian lives the way other countries do.


    http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2...03_table_4.pdf


    Hm, do you see anyone in Europe among the top 5 for standard of living?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
    Who said anything about their economic policy? And they're poor to begin with, which isn't helped by drug cartels and foreign invasions. I mentioned their greater level of real democracy, nothing else.
    Ah ok....so you want real democracy under poor living conditions because of cartels and foreign invasions. Got it!













    Because immigration isn't one of the biggest issues for their politicians during elections means no one immigrates there? Great argument. And actually most illegal immigrants into America come from Cuba or Mexico because America's the closest.

    Right, they come because its close. Wow.







    "Politically Incorrect" (1994) - Trivia

    "ABC cancelled the show even though its ratings were strong, and in some markets it was beating out "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno" (1992). Host Bill Maher has been quoted as saying it was because the politically conservative Walt Disney Corp., which owned ABC, didn't like his criticisms of the government of President George W. Bush."


    It was specifically stopped for this comment:

    "We have been the cowards lobbing cruise missiles from 2,000 miles away. That's cowardly. Staying in the airplane when it hits the building, say what you want about it, it's not cowardly. Stupid maybe, but not cowardly."


    Which again goes back to my point about the nationalistic bias of the media.

    Nationalistic? Maybe its respect for the 3,000 people that died...

    Politically Incorrect was niether a news show nor a serious polticial opuinion show. It was a show base on satire.





    A country being in shambles has little to do with its right to criticize foreign policy.
    Nobody said they didn't right, but I sure don't listen to them when tehy tell me how to run my country when their's is falling apart.

    For instance, the US isn't criticized for using veto power to prevent Israel from facing the consequences for recurring violations of international law just because other countries are jealous. I imagine most countries would also abused their power if they were the richest, most powerful country on Earth, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticized when it does happen.
    Could care less.



    Yes, but most of them tend to do it in secret. Bush has basically came out and declared that anyone claimed to be a "terrorist" can essentially be considered a non-entity and not subject to international law.
    Right, so secretly doing it while torturing them is worse then doing it public for all to see while passing legislation giving them certian rights....something other countries don't do. What pipe are you smoking?






    And most of Europe generally has better healthcare for the poor and longer lifespans. Here is a comparison of various levels of economic freedom between Europe and the US:

    http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...p4_TableC1.gif

    http://www.heritage.org/research/fea...p4_TableB1.gif


    I'm generally talking about actual civil liberties, for instance less oppressive attitudes towards sex and drugs, less censorship, etc.
    I could care lessa bout their policies about social issues. Id o what I want in my own house and nobody bothers me here.....

    Wrong, they don't have better healthcare...they have government funded healthcare which means the population gets taxed much more heavily than us. When the former Prime Minister of Italy had heart problems, he didn't stay in Italy or go to France or some other European country to receive treatment, he came here.



    Sure you can. You can make some superficial tax cuts, keep spending money you don't have, and leave it to the next office to fix your mess.
    Nobody is fighting at the gas pumps....the tax cuts have helped...I have seen it personally...sorry your accountant didn't. Maybe you should get a better one.






    The hostages got turned over, didn't they? Although that was done after Reagan sold them missiles in return for the hostages. Pure coincidence that they were released right after Carter's term ended. I wonder if you would've preferred hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians dead and risking the hostages being killed so we could have the satisfaction of showing Iran who's boss.
    Every historian int he world, even liberal professors will tell you the Carter administration and foreign policy was a complete failure. Risking huindred of thousands of people showing IRan who's boss? I suggest you brush on your history a bit because Carter authorized covert military action which resulted in failure.

    " 8 helicopters, 6 C-130 transport planes, and 93 Delta force commandoes secretly invaded Iran. They were to rendezvous at a place in Iran they called Desert One, move out to another point called Desert Two, and then go on to Tehran to rescue the hostages. But Delta force never made it to Desert Two or Tehran. The mission was aborted after three of the eight helicopters failed, on the way to Desert One. The operation was a miserable failure, resulting in an accident that caused the loss of 8 American lives. Later investigation revealed a surprising level of negligence.

    Just before the rescue mission took place, several other countries had finally agreed to level economic sanctions on Iran. Some of them agreed to the sanctions because they thought that if they did, the U.S. would not take any military action. They were quite irate when they heard about the rescue mission after the fact. "


    Is that you conservative foreign policy in action?



    I know he was pounded outside the mainstream media (and rightfully so) which went easy on him after the asssination attempt.
    Are you kidding me? It was every major news station for months.


    But today he's considered some sort of messiah figure. When the History Channel goes over presidents, about the only thing they say bad about Reagan is his economic policy.
    And Iran Contra......there is a reason Oliver North has his own TV Show. I guess you can't see that when you don't the news much right?

    Bush lying about taxes
    Which cost him the election and I never really hear about it now.

    and Clinton lying about his sex life is popular as ever.
    What the hell are you watching? I've never seen someone so wrong about what it show on the news today.
    Reagan getting caught on national TV reading off his instructions for denial or Iran Contra? Not so much.
    Yeah...its a right wing conspiracy to supress the Iran Contra affair which happened 20 years ago. You got us.

    Put....the...pipe....down.


    I was parodying your response, especially the way you threw in the O Reilly-esque France reference. And really it's sad to label me as a "liberal." I point out the faults of Democrats as much as Republicans. What I do is hold all world leaders, regardless of nationality or party affiliation to the same standard of scrutiny. It amuses me whenever someone calls it "liberal" to not be a blind nationalist.
    Its it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....




    Which ... I haven't done. I pointed out that Europe and Latin America are superior to the US in some areas.
    No you haven't...you have state your opinion that it is...most people don't agree.





    Not according to the charts I posted above, but if you say so. What's comical and delusional is your seeming belief that the US is #1 in every single category and our leaders don't put power above civilian lives the way other countries do.


    http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2...03_table_4.pdf


    Hm, do you see anyone in Europe among the top 5 for standard of living?

    Maybe you should look past your charts (standard of living includes governement funded programs) and see what will happen 20 years from now when you don't have a large enough workforce to tax. French youth didn't riot about social conditions. Youth unemployment rate is doulbe that of the US.

    "Liberalization Versus Economic Integration
    Does the evidence support the notion that high-tax, high-benefit economies fare worse than freer economies? A comparison of Europe and the United States sheds light on this question.

    Over the past two decades, the U.S. economy has grown at an annual rate of 3.2 percent, while the French economy has grown by barely 2 percent per year (Chart 2). Except for a brief spike following reunification in the early 1990s, the German economy has fared even worse.

    Chart 2: France, Germany usually trail United States in GDP growth

    Unemployment is a good indicator of labor market flexibility, and here, too, the evidence is clear. U.S. unemployment has fallen from 8 percent to 5 percent over the past two decades, while the French and German rates have averaged about 10 percent (Chart 3). Although observers commonly point to the current economic performances of France and Germany as proof of the “Eurosclerosis” that besets Old Europe, it is this sustained difference that suggests something more fundamental is at work here. That fundamental “something” boils down to competitiveness.

    Chart 3: French and German unemployment climb, while U.S. rate falls

    The various organizations that evaluate the extent to which countries are economically free uniformly conclude that the United States is freer than all or most European nations. Perhaps the most well known of these evaluations is published jointly by the Fraser Institute and the National Center for Policy Analysis. It ranks the United States as the world’s third freest economy, with Germany 22nd and France 44th. Rankings published by the Heritage Foundation and IMD International reach similar conclusions.

    Why does the U.S. fare so well in these surveys? Simply put, America offers a lower tax burden and a more flexible labor market than France and Germany. The United States has fewer regulations governing the hiring and firing of workers and fewer governing the number of hours an employee can work. This increases the value of workers in the eyes of firms and thereby helps keep unemployment low—and production high. Low tax rates have a similarly laudable effect on the U.S. economy by facilitating business creation and fostering business growth.

    If it is well understood that inflexible labor markets and high taxes cost jobs and retard growth, why do some EU member states seek to impose them at the European level? The answer may lie in the distributional consequences of this choice. If it’s assumed that France and Germany will not abandon the policies that encourage businesses and workers to flee those countries, the consequences of those policies can be mitigated by compelling nearby states that would otherwise attract those disgruntled workers and businesses to adopt the same policies. Businesses and workers for whom the economic climate is particularly oppressive might leave the EU entirely, but that is a much more costly decision than simply slipping from one European state to another. On net, the more highly regulated European economies may gain, even though the EU as a whole loses.

    Recent evidence points to the same conclusion. Last year the European Union considered a proposal to introduce free trade in services across its member states.[1] With free trade having been a core idea behind the EU’s formation, and with the service sector having grown to the point where it now accounts for 70 percent of European output, free trade in services would seem like an almost automatic extension of the ever-closer union that EU policymakers say they seek. Yet the proposal was rejected.

    In arguing against it, one European head of state decreed that the continent “must not become a free trade zone,” a statement consistent with the vision that Europe must achieve economic integration without further economic liberalization. But it is not consistent with the agenda to which a unanimous EU agreed in Lisbon, where Europe committed to having the world’s most dynamic and fastest-growing economy by 2010.[2]

    French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin opined in late June that European leaders must either lead the charge to protect social Europe or else “we resign ourselves to making our continent a vast free-trade area governed by the rules of competition.” Whether to accept or resist the “rules of competition,” and the prosperity those rules bring, is indeed the choice Europe now confronts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Ah ok....so you want real democracy under poor living conditions because of cartels and foreign invasions. Got it!

    Hokay. Where did I say I wanted to live in Latin America? I was pointing out that the US is not #1 in all categories like certain people want to believe. Stop trying to create a false dichotomy. It's not "either you like everything America does or your like everything another country does."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Right, they come because its close. Wow.


    Sounding sarcastic is supposed to refute my point? How easy do you think it is for impoverished Mexicans or Cubans to get to, say, Amsterdam compared to the US?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Nationalistic? Maybe its respect for the 3,000 people that died...


    What? It is blatantly obvious that it requires more courage to kill yourself to acheive your goals that to drop bombs from thousands of miles away encountering virtually no personal danger. It is stupid to blow yourself up, but it obviously requires more courage than attacking from such a distance that the enemy can't possibly fight back.


    Beyond that, the nationalistic bias shows any time someone points out the MILLIONS of Arab civilians who've died from US actions. Respect for their dead is tossed out the window.


    This is what is so amusing. Most of the US citizens don't even think about the fact that literally over 100 times more Arab civilians have been killed by the US than vice versa. Likewise over in the Middle East, the US is painted as oppressors and murderers all the while people ignore Middle Eastern groups killing civilians.

    You have two sides so consumed by propaganda that they are blind to their own side killing civilians as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Politically Incorrect was niether a news show nor a serious polticial opuinion show. It was a show base on satire.

    Which negates my point ... How? A lot of pundits are considered primarily entertainers.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Nobody said they didn't right, but I sure don't listen to them when tehy tell me how to run my country when their's is falling apart.


    No, but when THEIR countries are suffering massive civilian deaths due to the action of your country, most decent human beings would at least look into it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Could care less.


    And that's the problem. Way too many people here could care less about civilian deaths due to US actions. It only matters when they do it to us. It's that kind of attitude that's led to most atrocities throughout history and amusingly enough, people still don't get it.







    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Right, so secretly doing it while torturing them is worse then doing it public for all to see while passing legislation giving them certian rights....something other countries don't do. What pipe are you smoking?

    Giving them certain rights? The legislation is officially taking AWAY all of their rights. And it's worse because it LEGITIMIZES the practice. Police brutality happens, but that doesn't mean it should be legalized.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post

    I could care lessa bout their policies about social issues. Id o what I want in my own house and nobody bothers me here.....

    Wrong, they don't have better healthcare...they have government funded healthcare which means the population gets taxed much more heavily than us. When the former Prime Minister of Italy had heart problems, he didn't stay in Italy or go to France or some other European country to receive treatment, he came here.

    People go into Mexico for cancer treatements all the time. And they have better health care according to the statistics regarding death and disease. Paying tax for healthcare relates to taxes. I'm speaking of the quality of their healthcare as reflected by average life span, disease treatment, etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Nobody is fighting at the gas pumps....the tax cuts have helped...I have seen it personally...sorry your accountant didn't. Maybe you should get a better one.

    WTF? Are you living on planet Earth? Gas floats between $2.80-$3.15 a gallon here. In the late 90's it was often $1.00 a gallon.


    And you're ignoring the vastly increased spending of Bush. Who's going to pay for it? You, later. Just like Reagan's spending which caused a deficit much greater than Carter's once he left office.







    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Every historian int he world, even liberal professors will tell you the Carter administration and foreign policy was a complete failure. Risking huindred of thousands of people showing IRan who's boss? I suggest you brush on your history a bit because Carter authorized covert military action which resulted in failure.


    Actually quite a few people believe that Reagan and those involved in Iran Contra had a lot to do with the hostages not being released before Carter left office.

    But again, would you have preferred he bombed the hell out of Iran, killing thousands of people and risk the hostages being executed as retaliation leading to an all-out war?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Is that you conservative foreign policy in action?

    It is more conservative than invading Iran would be. Black ops are standard in any presidency.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Are you kidding me? It was every major news station for months.

    What happened? Were there attempts to impeach him? Has it stayed in popular culture? Were it widely called treason? There's no way you can say this has had as many repercussions as Bush's tax lies or Clinton lying about his sex life.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    And Iran Contra......there is a reason Oliver North has his own TV Show. I guess you can't see that when you don't the news much right?

    Because he was involved in REX 84.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post

    Which cost him the election and I never really hear about it now.

    Except any time someone reviews his presidency. That's almost always viewed as one of the most significant events.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    What the hell are you watching? I've never seen someone so wrong about what it show on the news today.

    On the news? Since none of these events are current that doesn't apply. Clinton got impeached for lies about his sex life. Bush lost an election. Both of these events are found in almost any biography of their presidencies. Iran Contra, not so much. Iran Contra is pretty much skipped in most popular Reagan bios you'll find on places like The History Channel, along with all his black ops in Latin America.

    And given your comments about Bill O Reilly among others, it doesn't really bother me that you think I'm wrong about the news.





    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Yeah...its a right wing conspiracy to supress the Iran Contra affair which happened 20 years ago. You got us.

    Strawman.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    Its it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....


    Is there any point to this?








    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post
    No you haven't...you have state your opinion that it is...most people don't agree.

    It is a FACT that people in Latin America have been elected without tons of corporate sponsors in their pockets. If you try that here, you end up like Ron Paul or Ralph Nader. It is a FACT that several places in Europe allow far more social freedoms in regards to sex, drugs, censorship, etc.



    I wonder who you even mean by "most people."


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post

    Maybe you should look past your charts (standard of living includes governement funded programs) and see what will happen 20 years from now when you don't have a large enough workforce to tax. French youth didn't riot about social conditions. Youth unemployment rate is doulbe that of the US.


    Yes, every single country in Europe is going to have massive unemployment. You got me. And Bush's massive over-spending is going to do nothing to our own economy once the next president is in office.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo View Post

    "Liberalization Versus Economic Integration
    Does the evidence support the notion that high-tax, high-benefit economies fare worse than freer economies? A comparison of Europe and the United States sheds light on this question.

    Wow, I can cut and paste an article too:

    http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/338


    But I'm not here to play a game of which economy is better. I find it childish and silly to argue about one country being "better" than another.

    The point is that the US has had some of the most brutal military policy in the world for some time, it is near impossible to win a major political seat here without the proper corporate connections (thus candidates who all have the same goals) which is not the case in Latin America, and several places in Europe have greater social freedoms. The US is not #1 across the board as you want to believe and does need change, especially in foreign policy.
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    Just an FYI for ya'll. before any of you do anything stupid like vote for a candidate who wants universal health coverage

    When it comes to average lifespan of a country's citizens, I really would like everyone to know (before you vote for socialized healthcare) that it IS NOT healthcare that has increased our lifespans across the globe!!!!!!!! It was things like nutrition and social health (think cleanliness of your environment, not hospitals) reform that made the biggest difference. This is a well documented fact, but like many facts, politicians and media don't give a **** to report them because life for them is about votes and ratings.
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    I just wanted to say I hate the quote fests...carry on
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rufio View Post
    Hokay. Where did I say I wanted to live in Latin America? I was pointing out that the US is not #1 in all categories like certain people want to believe. Stop trying to create a false dichotomy. It's not "either you like everything America does or your like everything another country does."
    And I could care less is they aren't number 1 in everything but I guess if they aren't you seem to want to criticize just about everything while quoting how great it is in Latin American and Western Europe...




    Sounding sarcastic is supposed to refute my point? How easy do you think it is for impoverished Mexicans or Cubans to get to, say, Amsterdam compared to the US?
    Why would they? They couldn't find any jobs anyway and would be taxed to death not to mention thrown in jail.

    Oh but I'm sure they are migrating to America for the liberal "sex and drug" policies...




    What? It is blatantly obvious that it requires more courage to kill yourself to acheive your goals that to drop bombs from thousands of miles away encountering virtually no personal danger.
    Right...courage. You are OUT there.




    Beyond that, the nationalistic bias shows any time someone points out the MILLIONS of Arab civilians who've died from US actions. Respect for their dead is tossed out the window.
    Yeah, those protests all over the US news about Israel bombing civilian targets, US bombing civilian targets in Iraq are just ignored. Seriously, do you watch ANY new? The US is FORCED to fight a politically correct war because of coverage....


    This is what is so amusing. Most of the US citizens don't even think about the fact that literally over 100 times more Arab civilians have been killed by the US than vice versa. Likewise over in the Middle East, the US is painted as oppressors and murderers all the while people ignore Middle Eastern groups killing civilians.

    So ****in what? So we should keep a tally for comparisons? Should we go back to the Crusades and Muslim conquests of Africa too?

    And I'm sure you find it amusing...
    You have two sides so consumed by propaganda that they are blind to their own side killing civilians as well.
    Wrong. Now I KNOW you don't watch the news...that's all you see...civilian deaths in Iraq by the US or militias and politicans hammering each other over it.





    Which negates my point ... How? A lot of pundits are considered primarily entertainers.

    And if you actually got the point that I'm talking about news REPORTING, you wouldn't make the same mistake over and over and over again.







    No, but when THEIR countries are suffering massive civilian deaths due to the action of your country, most decent human beings would at least look into it.
    Last time I checked, we aren't bombing Western Europe. Can you actually follow this conversation?





    And that's the problem. Way too many people here could care less about civilian deaths due to US actions. It only matters when they do it to us. It's that kind of attitude that's led to most atrocities throughout history and amusingly enough, people still don't get it.
    Ok there Sister Theresa.









    Giving them certain rights? The legislation is officially taking AWAY all of their rights. And it's worse because it LEGITIMIZES the practice. Police brutality happens, but that doesn't mean it should be legalized.
    WRONG. You don't' even know how they apply the Geneva Convention to non citizens. They do NOT receive the same rights citizens do and they do NOT have the right to the secular judicial system. Every Western European country applies it this way and the US is the ONLY one that has given then MORE rights and actually interpreted the Geneva Convention to apply to enemy combatants that do not claim citizenry to any country. See what rights they get in Western Europe and Latin American is you are considered and enemy combatant.



    People go into Mexico for cancer treatments all the time. And they have better health care according to the statistics regarding death and disease.

    Wow....you are so lost its amazing.


    WTF? Are you living on planet Earth? Gas floats between $2.80-$3.15 a gallon here. In the late 90's it was often $1.00 a gallon.
    So what? Are you still buying it? Oh I get it..Bush controls OPEC now.

    And you're ignoring the vastly increased spending of Bush. Who's going to pay for it? You, later. Just like Reagan's spending which caused a deficit much greater than Carter's once he left office.
    This is a liberal talking about government spending? WOW...that takes the cake. Woh going to pay for your socialized healthcare...You?

    Yeah, we are all suffering horrible economic disasters right now and in the 80 and 90's. It was a real bad time compared to the oil crisis of the 70's.....

    Selective filtering kicking in.








    Actually quite a few people believe that Reagan and those involved in Iran Contra had a lot to do with the hostages not being released before Carter left office.

    Oh, I'm sure they do because all evil flows from the Republican side.

    But again, would you have preferred he bombed the hell out of Iran, killing thousands of people and risk the hostages being executed as retaliation leading to an all-out war?
    Well of course....I always want to kill thousands of citizens. I mean sending in a covert military strike force isn't an act of war...Carter would never do that...





    It is more conservative than invading Iran would be. Black ops are standard in any presidency.

    Ah oh....when Carter does it its part of every Presidency but when a Republican does it, its because he's a war monger. Got it!






    What happened? Were there attempts to impeach him? Has it stayed in popular culture? Were it widely called treason? There's no way you can say this has had as many repercussions as Bush's tax lies or Clinton lying about his sex life.
    Yes there was talk..we're you not around then? Too young?

    You seriously are delusional if you think Iran Contra, which had round the clock news coverage in Senate hearings, was suppressed.











    Except any time someone reviews his presidency. That's almost always viewed as one of the most significant events.
    That's what a review is Einstein.



    . Clinton got impeached for lies about his sex life.
    Wrong. Clinton was impeached for lying to Congress under oath. You can't get impeached for getting a hummer in the oval office...but lie to Congress about it and you can.
    Bush lost an election.
    Sorry, he won.
    Iran Contra, not so much. Iran Contra is pretty much skipped in most popular Reagan bios you'll find on places like The History Channel, along with all his black ops in Latin America.
    Right..they suppress it.



    And given your comments about Bill O Reilly among others, it doesn't really bother me that you think I'm wrong about the news.
    Its not just me, its the people in the new that think it as well.







    Strawman.
    Actually, its sarcasm...but I always like when someone starts to criticize tactics rather than points. Gives me a warm feeling.










    Is there any point to this?
    You're a duck. Get it?











    It is a FACT that people in Latin America have been elected without tons of corporate sponsors in their pockets. If you try that here, you end up like Ron Paul or Ralph Nader. It is a FACT that several places in Europe allow far more social freedoms in regards to sex, drugs, censorship, etc.
    I don't think its fact at all.


    I wonder who you even mean by "most people."
    Everyone not you.






    Yes, every single country in Europe is going to have massive unemployment. You got me. And Bush's massive over-spending is going to do nothing to our own economy once the next president is in office.
    Have? They already do. Maybe you ignored those French youth riots..I saw it on our nationalistic unbiased news.



    Wow, I can cut and paste an article too:

    US-vs-Europe structural rigidities: A re-think | vox - Research-based policy analysis and commentary from Europe's leading economists


    But I'm not here to play a game of which economy is better. I find it childish and silly to argue about one country being "better" than another.
    No, you just do it with continents.....

    The point is that the US has had some of the most brutal military policy in the world for some time, it is near impossible to win a major political seat here without the proper corporate connections (thus candidates who all have the same goals) which is not the case in Latin America, and several places in Europe have greater social freedoms. The US is not #1 across the board as you want to believe and does need change, especially in foreign policy.
    In your haste to prove us all wrong that the US isn't number one in everything you forget to research the simple fact that nobody said it was. Great job genius.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I just wanted to say I hate the quote fests...carry on

    I will not stop!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I just wanted to say I hate the quote fests...carry on
    LOL!
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    Oh, i'm not standing in your way when you get started. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00 View Post
    When it comes to average lifespan of a country's citizens, I really would like everyone to know (before you vote for socialized healthcare) that it IS NOT healthcare that has increased our lifespans across the globe!!!!!!!! It was things like nutrition and social health (think cleanliness of your environment, not hospitals) reform that made the biggest difference.
    may i also add that people die all the time without any interaction with the hospitals/healthcare system. so its not really a good indicator of the system.
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    Our health care system would be a lot better if we had less people like Michael Moore. I mean as in being fat and unhealthy like Michael Moore.

    I just hope Hillary doesn't get elected because she's thinks this is a good idea. Filthy rich people like Hillary and Michael Moore love this health care system because they can afford it and it makes them seem noble in the eyes of other people. When you're a middle class person like me then all that crap doesn't sound appealing.
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    Good movie, the responses to it are truly interesting. I enjoy the irrepressable nature of the name spewing haters.... damn pinky extremist..... blah blah blah. Does moores accuracy on 911 not lend him some credibility? i mean years later whats it going to take to get through to some people. now anytime moore makes a film its going to be extreme pinky left.... is it extreme to say that the richest country in the world should lose 18000 a year bc of no insurance? i guess all the funds are tied up in a "war on terror" lmao. Fixed those damn brown liberal turbin wearin sihk jesus hater lefties.
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    Rant begins.

    To all those that believe that they want the US to have a government controlled socialistic health care system:

    Try this analogy on for size. Really ask yourself if this is the sort of system you are advocating.

    You have your own workout program. You developed it yourself or sought assistance from a knowledgeable professional of your choice, like a Personal Trainer. What if we had socialized workouts controlled by the government? The government would tell you what exercies to perform. When to perform them. What gym you must use. There would probably be a limited number of gyms available. You would have to wait in line to get into the gym. If you wanted a Personal Trainer, the government would select them for you. They would then collect taxes from you to pay for all of the costs associated with the socialized workouts. If you didn't want to workout, tough. The government would still collect the "workout" tax from you. No choice. Sorry. Everyone would have the same access to workouts. Everyone would be treated exactly the same. Is that something anyone on this site would be receptive to? Anyone?


    I am always fascinated by the contridiction in some people's viewpoints. They speek of freedom and wanting government to stay out of their lives and that their taxes are too high, and government cannot be trusted. Then in the next breath they want the government to provide this and that and the other thing, magically, without any cost to themselves. Which is it? Government get out of my way, or government hold my hand?

    Take responsibility for yourselves! Don't become a dependent sheep!

    Rant ends.
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    anabolicrhino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper View Post
    Rant begins.

    To all those that believe that they want the US to have a government controlled socialistic health care system:

    Try this analogy on for size. Really ask yourself if this is the sort of system you are advocating.

    You have your own workout program. You developed it yourself or sought assistance from a knowledgeable professional of your choice, like a Personal Trainer. What if we had socialized workouts controlled by the government? The government would tell you what exercies to perform. When to perform them. What gym you must use. There would probably be a limited number of gyms available. You would have to wait in line to get into the gym. If you wanted a Personal Trainer, the government would select them for you. They would then collect taxes from you to pay for all of the costs associated with the socialized workouts. If you didn't want to workout, tough. The government would still collect the "workout" tax from you. No choice. Sorry. Everyone would have the same access to workouts. Everyone would be treated exactly the same. Is that something anyone on this site would be receptive to? Anyone?


    I am always fascinated by the contridiction in some people's viewpoints. They speek of freedom and wanting government to stay out of their lives and that their taxes are too high, and government cannot be trusted. Then in the next breath they want the government to provide this and that and the other thing, magically, without any cost to themselves. Which is it? Government get out of my way, or government hold my hand?

    Take responsibility for yourselves! Don't become a dependent sheep!

    Rant ends.
    So is the gym membership free or what ???

    if so, then sign me up

    free workouts rule !!!

    I already pay taxes for health care, its called Medicare.
    except I can't use it !...yet

    There are some things you can only get from a hospital with
    a medical staff, sure would be nice if it was free!

    "Everyone would have the same access to workouts. Everyone would be treated exactly the same."

    So, you want to be treated special ? That's nice

    Seriously, what this is about is that medical care decisions are being made by insurance representatives not doctors!

    Try this analogy- Someone hits you from behind and trashes your brand new car, you have not even made the first payment...

    No one is hurt but your car is seriously f*cked.

    The insurance company does not want to "total the car" so you get it fixed up real good but is still drives kinda f*cked!

    So now you have to drive a f*cked up car for next few years until you can sell it for a big loss, all because of a decision made by the insurance company!
  29. New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptic View Post
    Many Americans, like some on this forum, are in denial about the state of our country. They've been so brainwashed into thinking we are the greatest country on the face of this earth, that there is no room for improvement or criticism.
    along the lines of the socialist healthcare system, I believe it is a system similar to one used in France? not completely sure.

    But I also believe taxpayers in France are hit much harder than we are? Is this not true?

    I dont know everything, nor do I care to look it up to provide longwinded arguments - I'll leave that to the more skilled debaters (thanks BOBO), but I live in what I thought was a capitialistic nation, I wish to keep it that way.

    If you dont like the things government does now, and you dont like the way they do it, then why the hell would you want MORE government control, screwing up MORE things?

    damn.

    You are right. I do wave the american flag. I do love america, I do think it is great. However, they are many things i also hate about this country. There is room for improvement, and I am a firm believer in the continuous improvement of all things.

    but I also learned something in college from Dante's inferno - true hate is born from true love.

    I despise propaganda in any form, as it obscures the truth. End of story.
  30. Registered User
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    I did some math on Canada vs. US healthcare costs. The "universal healtcare" is definitely not free. From the numbers "I" came up with it was slightly more expensive to be taxed by the government in Canada than to have your own PPO for the family here in the states, but with much worse care in the sense that the government won't treat serious illnesses or diseases with the haste that we're used to here.

    Only idiots believe in free; however, that's more than enough for politicians because face it, people are stupid.
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    If socialized medicine was adaquate, private practice medicine wouldn't exist in those countries that have it. Yet check the UK + Canada. People would rather pay for an expensive service in the private sector that they can get from the government for "free"... because the the product is so poor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00 View Post

    Only idiots believe in free; however, that's more than enough for politicians because face it, people are stupid.
    Damn straight Reminds me of the part in Goodfellas where Robert De Niro says " Only nothing costs nothing ! ". I just hope there's not enough idiots.
  33. Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by brogers View Post
    If socialized medicine was adaquate, private practice medicine wouldn't exist in those countries that have it. Yet check the UK + Canada. People would rather pay for an expensive service in the private sector that they can get from the government for "free"... because the the product is so poor.
    So simple, yet so true.
  34. Registered User
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Warrior View Post
    Damn straight Reminds me of the part in Goodfellas where Robert De Niro says " Only nothing costs nothing ! ". I just hope there's not enough idiots.
    Sadly, I'm beginning to think that its an inevitability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by brogers View Post
    If socialized medicine was adaquate, private practice medicine wouldn't exist in those countries that have it. Yet check the UK + Canada. People would rather pay for an expensive service in the private sector that they can get from the government for "free"... because the the product is so poor.
    I agree and as a member of the super rich elite I have nothing to worry about,...however for those unfortunate souls who have to work for a living it's nice to have a cheaper option, you know like taking mass transit instead of a private car service.

    Of course the cheaper option sucks, but for some there would be no option,
  

  
 

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