What "ACTUALLY" happened on 911....

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No, you have it wrong. Read it. He can go against the FISA COURTS, which is stated in FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act).

    " The path to FISA has two branches, political and judicial.

    The government had long maintained that it had extensive discretion to conduct wiretapping or physical searches in order to protect national security. In Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347 (1967), the Supreme Court acknowledged that the President had claimed special authority for warrantless surveillance in national security investigations, and explicitly declined to extend its holding to cases "involving the national security." Id. at 358 n. 23. Similarly, Congress in Title III stated that "nothing in Title III shall . . . be deemed to limit the constitutional power of the President to take such measures as he deems necessary to protect the United States against the overthrow of the Government by force or other unlawful means, or against any other clear and present danger to the structure or existence of the Government."

    This was enacted into FISA upon its creation so its been going for 30yrs, not since 2000 although the Bush haters won't ever acknowledge that fact.. Even the author of FISA stated BUSH was within the law. Yes there have been amendments...like the one Clinton authorized:

    "President Bill Clinton expanded the law in 1995 to include what is known as "black bag" searches of homes, which are executed while residents are away and without their knowledge."

    Uh oh....Bill Clinton would never do that?!?!?!?


    And yes, the Justice Department, under FISA, can conduct unwarranted survellaince for up to one year.



    ..but I'm sure you will find fault with that.

    I read that you said "fisa handles warrantless searches" in the first sentence of your post. Warrantless searches are brought about by the president going around it, that was my point.Fisa court approves warrants. The rest,you basically just restated what I said. I wasn't just disagreeing with everything you wrote.

    I added the thing about clinton to my post apparently while you were writing this. My only point in that was that what he did was not popular-it just did not get the attention that things are now.

    And you said I'll find fault with the president being able to conduct warrantless searches for a year for some reason. No actually what I have a problem with is when it goes beyond a year and noone in congress even knows about the program.


  2. No actually what I have a problem with is when it goes beyond a year and noone in congress even knows about the program.
    Believe me they know. This is more of a political grenade. they trhow a few bodies on the pile to save the rest. Remember Bush is on his way out regardless.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    I read that you said "fisa handles warrantless searches" in the first sentence of your post. Warrantless searches are brought about by the president going around it, that was my point.Fisa court approves warrants. The rest,you basically just restated what I said. I wasn't just disagreeing with everything you wrote.

    I added the thing about clinton to my post apparently while you were writing this. My only point in that was that what he did was not popular-it just did not get the attention that things are now.

    And you said I'll find fault with the president being able to conduct warrantless searches for a year for some reason. No actually what I have a problem with is when it goes beyond a year and noone in congress even knows about the program.
    But FISA does handle warrantless search as the Justice Department can conduct these as well but with approval form the Attorney General. According to FISA the Presidents Constitutional right supersedes FISA law thereby eliminating the time frame. FISA law no longer dictates how long and this has been enacted for 30 years. Its old news but its now being used as a political issue against Bush. That's the point.

    If you don't like the fact Bush is able to do this then your problem isn't with him, its with the Carter administration.

    If I have the constitutional right to perform such acts against terrorists, I would as well.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The military.


    You do understand that the House Intelligence Committe was aware of everything he did.

    And no, he can't draw a name out of a hat. He has to have evidence or be subject to judicial review and prosecution. But I guess you forgot that part...

    In the military as it is now, you go in with the understanding that your rights are different than the average citizen. That is your conscious choice though, not one that is made for you. That is all irrelevant though, in the post of mine that you quoted it was directed at our forefathers, not today's military. They are the ones that died to establish our rights, not us. That's all my point was.

    And no I did not forgot any part. There are clearly defined terms in which fisa grants warrants. This is not the case when you go around it. It is ultimatly up to the discretion of the president. I'm not just sitting around bush-bashing. I have also taken the time to read up on the subject.

  5. I remember somebody actually having a degree in history around here somewhere.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    But FISA does handle warrantless search as the Justice Department can conduct these as well but with approval form the Attorney General. According to FISA the Presidents Constitutional right supersedes FISA law thereby eliminating the time frame. FISA law no longer dictates how long and this has been enacted for 30 years. Its old news but its now being used as a political issue against Bush. That's the point.

    If you don't like the fact Bush is able to do this then your problem isn't with him, its with the Carter administration.

    If I have the constitutional right to perform such acts against terrorists, I would as well.
    Ok not to beat this into the ground as I think it may just be the wording that's getting confused, but How is fisa involved if you're going around it without a warrant? (this is not meant as a sarcastic question)

  7. Hey Tim, You may notice a color change. make sure you hit the gold forum.

  8. I would feel a whole lot safer knowing my government was fighting a war against the people who attacked us. Iraq never attacked the US - ever.

    When PH was attacked, we didn't go after China and say they were close enough but it affected Japan just the same. Of course we didn't. We took our gloves off and we got dirty and we took no BS from anyone.

    You might not care about OBL, but he grew a set of nads, and walked up to the tiger and spit in its face. The tiger let him get away with it. Now anyone will think they can do the same.

    Conspiracies are fun to play with but I am a realist when it comes to the BS going on in this country right in front of us. Bottom line is 1. we did not respond in appropriate fashion, 2. we are in a war in a country that we should not be in and 3. politics is what it is and will remain so as long as the people let it stay that way or are content to see it as it is.

    The whole gas price thing is ahh well, and no disrespect intended, but weak. Any bets about prices after the elections?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    In the military as it is now, you go in with the understanding that your rights are different than the average citizen. That is your conscious choice though, not one that is made for you. That is all irrelevant though, in the post of mine that you quoted it was directed at our forefathers, not today's military. They are the ones that died to establish our rights, not us. That's all my point was.

    And no I did not forgot any part. There are clearly defined terms in which fisa grants warrants. This is not the case when you go around it. It is ultimatly up to the discretion of the president. I'm not just sitting around bush-bashing. I have also taken the time to read up on the subject.
    It was an exmaple as well as the certain rights you give up towards the police which are NOT voluntary. Your civil rights are infringed everyday for teh greater good.

    There are defined terms IF you are not the President who has evidence to authrorize it that will go under judicial review. He can't just pick a name out of the hat and tap anyone he wants. His constitutional right superceds FISA law (hecne the 1 year is out the window) but its still under judicial review after the fact. Its also reported to the House Intelligence Commitee so they knew EXACTLY what he was doing AND approved it after the fact. Its the reaosn WHY die hard liberals hate Hilary Clinton because she was WITH Bush (along with most other war issues) and now for political reasons she isn't....wonder why...
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  10. You are one bad a$$ MF Mr. Jay. No hugs and kisses smileys? what up wid dat? Does this mean I have to wear the superman thing again?

  11. Wasn't me man. It was the HMFIC.

  12. I got to wear the superman thing for him?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk
    Believe me they know. This is more of a political grenade. they trhow a few bodies on the pile to save the rest. Remember Bush is on his way out regardless.

    That does make sense. Sometimes it's easy to forget that politicians release what info they do, when and where they want, for their own personal gain.

  14. yeah, the thong and the ball in the mouth again.



  15. Much appreciated!!!

  16. Quote Originally Posted by tomall2
    I would feel a whole lot safer knowing my government was fighting a war against the people who attacked us. Iraq never attacked the US - ever.

    When PH was attacked, we didn't go after China and say they were close enough but it affected Japan just the same. Of course we didn't. We took our gloves off and we got dirty and we took no BS from anyone.

    You might not care about OBL, but he grew a set of nads, and walked up to the tiger and spit in its face. The tiger let him get away with it. Now anyone will think they can do the same.

    Conspiracies are fun to play with but I am a realist when it comes to the BS going on in this country right in front of us. Bottom line is 1. we did not respond in appropriate fashion, 2. we are in a war in a country that we should not be in and 3. politics is what it is and will remain so as long as the people let it stay that way or are content to see it as it is.

    The whole gas price thing is ahh well, and no disrespect intended, but weak. Any bets about prices after the elections?
    Last time I checked we did go into Afghanistan, cleared out the Taliban, handed off control to NATO then now have to come back and clean up the mess because NATO and the international community has failed to keep control.

    There is a difference between Japan which has borders, has a central government and Al Qaeda which hides in Pakistan which we are not allowed to go into. You are telling the government to go after the enemy when all they have to do is hide in the mountains of Pakistan because they know the Pakistani government will not allow the US military in. Tell me how you solve that problem now? Be nice? OBL and Al Quaeda have lost a lot of clout in the last 5 years.

    Oils price dropped because people sold it off. People bought up those stocks like nuts because everyone was saying 80,90,$100 barrels. It didn't happen, the conflict ended, the pips are being repaired, there is a major discovery off of the Gulf which could fuel this country for 80 years and people dumped the stock. As a results the price dropped but it will go back up slowly. You still might see a large drop though. Its highly unpredictable.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    It was an exmaple as well as the certain rights you give up towards the police which are NOT voluntary. Your civil rights are infringed everyday for teh greater good.

    There are defined terms IF you are not the President who has evidence to authrorize it that will go under judicial review. He can't just pick a name out of the hat and tap anyone he wants. His constitutional right superceds FISA law (hecne the 1 year is out the window) but its still under judicial review after the fact. Its also reported to the House Intelligence Commitee so they knew EXACTLY what he was doing AND approved it after the fact. Its the reaosn WHY die hard liberals hate Hilary Clinton because she was WITH Bush (along with most other war issues) and now for political reasons she isn't....wonder why...
    Ok, I think I get it, you're saying that it's designed to catch any misuse, but not necessarily right away? I notice that there are also defined penalties, including damages, if they rule against it. It sounds like the year limit is supposed to be more of a deadline in case the case hasn't been reviewed by that time? And is there a time limit that says how soon he has to notify the house intelligence committee when a program is started without a warrant?

  18. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    Ok, I think I get it, you're saying that it's designed to catch any misuse, but not necessarily right away? I notice that there are also defined penalties, including damages, if they rule against it. It sounds like the year limit is supposed to be more of a deadline in case the case hasn't been reviewed by that time? And is there a time limit that says how soon he has to notify the house intelligence committee when a program is started without a warrant?
    Yes. He cant just tap anyone. Its ALL under review and will go to Congress if there is misuse. Everything is documented and under review. The Justice Department still can get warrantless surveillance but this goes through the Attorney General and has a 1 year limit. The President basically can supersede it all and there must be evidence and intelligence to back it up. Everything is reported to FISA which meets twice per week.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Last time I checked we did go into Afghanistan, cleared out the Taliban, handed off control to NATO then now have to come back and clean up the mess because NATO and the international community has failed to keep control.

    There is a difference between Japan which has borders, has a central government and Al Qaeda which hides in Pakistan which we are not allowed to go into. You are telling the government to go after the enemy when all they have to do is hide in the mountains of Pakistan because they know the Pakistani government will not allow the US military in. Tell me how you solve that problem now? Be nice? OBL and Al Quaeda have lost a lot of clout in the last 5 years.

    Oils price dropped because people sold it off. People bought up those stocks like nuts because everyone was saying 80,90,$100 barrels. It didn't happen, the conflict ended, the pips are being repaired, there is a major discovery off of the Gulf which could fuel this country for 80 years and people dumped the stock. As a results the price dropped but it will go back up slowly. You still might see a large drop though. Its highly unpredictable.
    The USA achieved its objective in Afghnistan(removing their leadership and installing ours) pretty quickly(Poland and France put up a better fight) mostly due to a large number of mercinaries and CIA field ops already located there. Al queda(the base) is a USA-CIA term for a group of trained muslims that can be called into action(like the national reserve) This term was initially used during the Russia/ Afghanistan war. It is erroneous to claim we are fighting a "data base" of reservists that opporate on their own volition.
    The value of an oil stock has little to due with the price of gas.
    The price of gas is what ever the" market will bear" and fluctuates beyond the normal supply and demand patterns. Specifically because the demand has never decreased for any discernable period. Its like NFL ticket prices, just because your team might suck, does not mean your ticket price will be lower than a team that is good. They charge as much as the respective city's fans will bear.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
    The USA achieved its objective in Afghnistan(removing their leadership and installing ours) pretty quickly(Poland and France put up a better fight) mostly due to a large number of mercinaries and CIA field ops already located there. Al queda(the base) is a USA-CIA term for a group of trained muslims that can be called into action(like the national reserve) This term was initially used during the Russia/ Afghanistan war. It is erroneous to claim we are fighting a "data base" of reservists that opporate on their own volition.
    The value of an oil stock has little to due with the price of gas.
    The price of gas is what ever the" market will bear" and fluctuates beyond the normal supply and demand patterns. Specifically because the demand has never decreased for any discernable period. Its like NFL ticket prices, just because your team might suck, does not mean your ticket price will be lower than a team that is good. They charge as much as the respective city's fans will bear.
    And your point?

    And it was the Soviet/Afghan war.

    I think you need to wake up and realize that supply and demand is not a physical attribute, its a perception. It doesn't operate on terms of what it physically available and what we physically consume. Its perception. I tihnk the oil market is a bit more dynamic than "ticket" prices.

    ..but lets ignore all those people that dumped oil stock which subsequently caused gas prices to drop. That didn't happen, its all fake.
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  21. Oil Prices Continue to Drop
    In the last 5 weeks, since August 7, oil prices, both for crude oil and petroleum products, have dropped substantially. The price of West Texas Intermediate (WTI) crude oil has fallen from $77 per barrel to below $64 per barrel. Retail gasoline prices have dropped 42 cents per gallon to $2.62 as of September 11, while retail diesel fuel prices, at $2.86 per gallon, are now about 20 cents per gallon lower than they were 5 weeks ago. Will the declines continue, or will they begin to level off and possibly increase later this year?


    For crude oil markets, the global situation is about as rosy as has been the case in the last several months. Almost every concern that existed in crude oil markets this summer is much more benign now. Concerns about a possible oil disruption from Iran have faded, as the diplomatic push to get Iran to halt enrichment of nuclear material has not yet led to sanctions imposed by the United Nations Security Council, and Iran has stated recently its willingness to continue negotiations with the United Nations. Mid-September has arrived without a single hurricane affecting oil facilities in the Gulf of Mexico and with no storms likely to arrive within at least the next week. Nigeria, where significant disruptions have occurred with some frequency over the past several years, has been quiet. The oil situation in Iraq is as positive as it has been in nearly 2 years, with EIA estimating Iraqi crude oil production in July and August at its highest levels since the fall of 2004. Even the one disruption that did make news recently, the BP pipeline leak in Alaska, now appears to be much less of a problem than originally thought. Initially, concerns were raised that Prudhoe Bay production might be stopped altogether, but it was soon determined that only a part of production would have to be taken offline for an extended period. According to the State of Alaska, Prudhoe Bay production for the month of August averaged 189 thousand barrels per day, which is about half of its August 2005 level. BP recently announced plans to begin to bring more production online soon and hopes to have full production restored by the end of October.

    For gasoline markets, the price drop that normally arrives after Labor Day and usually extends through the end of the year began a few weeks early, as the market entered the last few weeks of August with no hurricanes threatening petroleum infrastructure, such as refineries or pipelines, and with enough supplies on hand to get through Labor Day. As a result, the sell-off started before Labor Day, as along with the expected seasonal demand drop, rising refinery runs, and high import levels, markets perceived an improving supply/demand balance, pushing down prices. Currently, the near-month futures price of a barrel of gasoline is only $1 to $2 above that of a barrel of crude oil, an unusually low margin that is likely to increase over the coming months. Diesel prices have not dropped as much as gasoline, mostly because diesel demand tends to be strong in the fall with agricultural use of diesel increasing as crops are harvested, and the similarity of diesel to heating oil often causes diesel prices to rise in conjunction with heating oil as the winter approaches. Thus, declines in diesel prices have been limited to those caused by the decline in crude oil prices.

    Unless the U.S. economy starts showing signs of a significant slowdown, which would slow oil demand growth, or an unusually warm winter in the northern hemisphere that depresses heating-related demand, the opportunity for further improvement in crude oil markets appears to be limited. The global balance is expected to remain relatively tight as long as global demand continues to increase at a faster pace than non-OPEC supply, limiting gains in global spare production capacity, which implies that the downward trend in prices is likely to stop or reverse if one of the many potential sources of supply trouble flares up or if product pressures from heating fuels pulls up crude oil prices once cold weather begins in earnest. Regardless of what the future holds, U.S. consumers can take some comfort from the fact that U.S. average regular gasoline prices have dropped sharply over the last five weeks, and that crude oil prices are as low as they have been in several months.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  22. Liberals and their whacky conspiracy theories, an Eagles loss...I can't take it!!!


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  23. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Liberals and their whacky conspiracy theories, an Eagles loss...I can't take it!!!


    I'm not a liberal, I'm just whacky. BOOOGABOOOGABOOOGA

    Try being a Browns fan, that's enough to drive you crazy!

  24. I think we're in the same boat. Torture is torture.
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  25. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Liberals and their whacky conspiracy theories, an Eagles loss...I can't take it!!!



    Been meaning to bring that up

    Good points Bobo. People dumping oil stocks, oil prices fall, hmmmmm coincidence? Some people don't get it.
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