What "ACTUALLY" happened on 911....

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  1. Try being a Red Sox fan, now that is torture.


  2. Probably won't change the mind of anyone bent a a conspiracy theory (PM was probably in on it), but worth a read.
    Popular Mechanics - Debunking The 9/11 Myths - Mar. 2005 Cover Story
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    And your point?

    And it was the Soviet/Afghan war.

    I think you need to wake up and realize that supply and demand is not a physical attribute, its a perception. It doesn't operate on terms of what it physically available and what we physically consume. Its perception. I tihnk the oil market is a bit more dynamic than "ticket" prices.

    ..but lets ignore all those people that dumped oil stock which subsequently caused gas prices to drop. That didn't happen, its all fake.
    Oh yeah I forgot there used to be this thing called the Soviet union...well some of them had to be russians, right?

    My"point" is that if someone can manipulate stock prices through the artificial "perception" of supply and demand, Then that implies that those same people are operating from a secret plan(conspiracy).Then could it not be possible that another group of people would manipulate profits from other artificially staged events(9/11)?
    If the Eagles could have won I could be out rubbing it in the face of all the Giants fans in NYC, but now I have to hide indoors and contemplate conspiracy theories

  4. Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
    Oh yeah I forgot there used to be this thing called the Soviet union...well some of them had to be russians, right?

    My"point" is that if someone can manipulate stock prices through the artificial "perception" of supply and demand, Then that implies that those same people are operating from a secret plan(conspiracy).Then could it not be possible that another group of people would manipulate profits from other artificially staged events(9/11)?
    If the Eagles could have won I could be out rubbing it in the face of all the Giants fans in NYC, but now I have to hide indoors and contemplate conspiracy theories
    Are you kidding me? Its be like ever since the stock market has been around. You can include the real estate market as well. Stocks rise and fall and you have booms and busts based on perception along with physical supply and demand. The real estate markets in Las Vegas, Florida, Arizona boomed because of perception, not lack of land!!!!

    Now 911 is a conspiracy to make money? Holy god..now I've heard it all. I guess you don't follow financial news in the last 5 years.
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Guess what? That's can happen with one single phone call and in certain states police can if they have enough evidence WITHOUT a warrant and its been that way for years.
    Well, not quite. In very limited circumstances, yes, but not due solely to overwhelming evidence.
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  6. I am sitting here, LMFAO seeing Bobo starting to pull at his hairs.

    I wanna see the limit of his patience and stomach for insanity and outright crap.

  7. You know, this thread (and the entire 9/11 conspiracy 'movement') is amazing.

    People are so desperate to believe in something, to believe that someone out there is out to get everyone, that they actually buy this crap.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp
    Well, not quite. In very limited circumstances, yes, but not due solely to overwhelming evidence.
    I was referring more to the "plain view laws" or the beliefs of an officer that a crime took place within a house (which generally he would need visible evidence at the time) which could eliminate the need for a warrant.

    But I believe you get the larger point....
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  9. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp
    You know, this thread (and the entire 9/11 conspiracy 'movement') is amazing.

    People are so desperate to believe in something, to believe that someone out there is out to get everyone, that they actually buy this crap.
    You win a cookie!
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  10. Crowler cookie?

  11. Nope, Beowulf cleaned the E-Store out. Have to use the certificate
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp
    You know, this thread (and the entire 9/11 conspiracy 'movement') is amazing.

    People are so desperate to believe in something, to believe that someone out there is out to get everyone, that they actually buy this crap.
    God forbid anybody raise a question about anything. We must all be liberal, crazy, delusional, paranoid, freaks.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    God forbid anybody raise a question about anything. We must all be liberal, crazy, delusional, paranoid, freaks.

    The first step in recovery is admitting your faults


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  14. My fault is knowing everything but not being able to help those who don't cause they are good and good is dumb!

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The first step in recovery is admitting your faults


    My name is Jarhead and I'm a conspiracyholic.

    One day at a time fellas.

  16. We are here for you jarhead.


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  17. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    God forbid anybody raise a question about anything. We must all be liberal, crazy, delusional, paranoid, freaks.
    Hey man, legitimate, well reasoned questions are great - and should be asked.

    Using an (admittedly severe) office fire to show that the WTC should not have come down, when the actual 9/11 fire was accompanied by a nearly 400,000 pound aircraft crashing into the building and over 20,000 gallons of burning jet fuel is neither legitimate or rational.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by jrkarp
    Hey man, legitimate, well reasoned questions are great - and should be asked.

    Using an (admittedly severe) office fire to show that the WTC should not have come down, when the actual 9/11 fire was accompanied by a nearly 400,000 pound aircraft crashing into the building and over 20,000 gallons of burning jet fuel is neither legitimate or rational.
    Ok there are pages of stuff about the fires,etc. The aircraft was not 400,000 pounds, and it was not loaded with 20000 gals of fuel. There are audio tapes of the firemen on the scene reporting 2 isolated pockets of fire. I won't get into all that again since we've debated this stuff to death- but me personally- I'm more concerned with questions involving our governments failures and the farce of an "investigation" in the aftermath, and there are plenty of them. I don't feel one bit crazy questioning that stuff. Questions such as(I did not write these):

    1. Why were standard operating procedures for dealing with hijacked airliners not followed that day?
    2. Why were the extensive missile batteries and air defenses reportedly deployed around the Pentagon not activated during the attack?
    3. Why did the Secret Service allow Bush to complete his elementary school visit, apparently unconcerned about his safety or that of the schoolchildren?
    4. Why hasn't a single person been fired, penalized, or reprimanded for the gross incompetence we witnessed that day?
    5. Why haven't authorities in the U.S. and abroad published the results of multiple investigations into trading that strongly suggested foreknowledge of specific details of the 9/11 attacks, resulting in tens of millions of dollars of traceable gains?
    6. Why has Sibel Edmonds, a former FBI translator who claims to have knowledge of advance warnings, been publicly silenced with a gag order requested by Attorney General Ashcroft and granted by a Bush-appointed judge?
    7. How could Flight 77, which reportedly hit the Pentagon, have flown back towards Washington D.C. for 40 minutes without being detected by the FAA's radar or the even superior radar possessed by the US military?
    8. How were the FBI and CIA able to release the names and photos of the alleged hijackers within hours, as well as to visit houses, restaurants, and flight schools they were known to frequent?
    9. What happened to the over 20 documented warnings given our government by 14 foreign intelligence agencies or heads of state?
    10. Why did the Bush administration cover up the fact that the head of the Pakistani intelligence agency was in Washington the week of 9/11 and reportedly had $100,000 wired to Mohamed Atta, considered the ringleader of the hijackers?
    11. Why did the 911 Commission fail to address most of the 39 questions posed by the families of the victims, in addition to almost all of the questions posed here?
    12. Why was Philip Zelikow chosen to be the Executive Director of the ostensibly independent 911 Commission although he had co-authored a book with Condoleezza Rice? Those who are demanding deeper inquiry now number in the hundreds of thousands, including a former member of the first Bush administration, a retired Air Force colonel, a European parliamentarian, families of the victims, highly respected authors, investigative journalists, peace and justice leaders, former Pentagon staff, and the National Green Party.

    I know this stuff is just going to be met with a curt answer and a barrage of insults, but so be it. I feel these are legitimate questions. The 9/11 commision report is widely regarded as a farce, and I feel that needs to be addressed as well. It's not just crazies asking crazy questions. People are gonna believe what they will, I understand that, and I respect others opinions.

  19. I have a feeling that whatever answers someone gives you, you won't believe them anyway. I've already seen it.

    Plus its pretty easy to pose many questions in wihch the public can't and never will be able to answer then shout "conspiracy".
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I have a feeling that whatever answers someone gives you, you won't believe them anyway. I've already seen it.

    Plus its pretty easy to pose many questions in which the public can't and never will be able to answer then shout "conspiracy".
    I don't think that's fair. I have not in any of these threads just ignored other peoples opinions or called them names because they don't share my views. I have taken the time to look honestly at views that oppose mine, even when people have been rude. The reason I believe in the first place that the government is capable of allowing such a thing to happen is because THEY SAID THEY WOULD. In 1962 they drew up a document outlining exactly how to do it. I 've mentioned that before and it's just ignored and I'm told I'm crazy, but nobody on the other side of things wants to take a look at it..

    And many of the questions I've posted DO have answers. Why is it that I'm being called the one who refuses to listen to other people again?

  21. I made my comment because we already did this in the other thread. Whenever another viewpoint came up, instead of looking at what they said you automatically attacked their credibility because of their political views.

    I actually gave you pages upon pages that disproved the claims of the original video that was posted by LakemountD. When the popular science article was posted you questioned the author's credibility.


    I never said you wouldn't listen, I said you wouldn't believe it. It comes down to you associating the 911 commission being the tell all document about 911 and anyone who has studied contemporary governmental history knows that any commission is basically going to protect national security first then give a valid explanation suitable for the general public second. Are they lying? Of course they are. That's what its supposed to do when it comes to national security and its been that way since this country was founded.

    There is a reason most politicians aren't up in arms about this. They know how it works and it will continue to work this way. Those who do raise questions are trying to be elected and once elected you wont' hear them talk about it again. The government lies. Sorry to break the news to you but it ALWAYS been that way. That doesnt mean they murdered 3000 people. It means they are covering up their incompetence in which every administration is guilty of.

    Did the BUsh administration get caught with their pants down? Yes. The same thing happened with Clinton 3 seperate times on a lesser scale. Welcome to the US governement.
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  22. Smile


    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Are you kidding me? Its be like ever since the stock market has been around. You can include the real estate market as well. Stocks rise and fall and you have booms and busts based on perception along with physical supply and demand. The real estate markets in Las Vegas, Florida, Arizona boomed because of perception, not lack of land!!!!

    Now 911 is a conspiracy to make money? Holy god..now I've heard it all. I guess you don't follow financial news in the last 5 years.
    I'll try not to sound too serious, mostly because it's all out of my control but...The Stock Market exist only to create wealth through the perception of "value". This has been the most abused "tool" ever concieved.(supreme beings aside) The real estate market is a close second, only because the land does actually exist. I remember the financial world about 10 years ago when this thing called the internet took off and these guys who called themselves "day traders" would just pump and dump stocks all day. Companies with astronomically backwards P/e ratios ruled the roost. Then there was these real smart guys from Enron, Worldcom,Adelphia, ect. They realized that with the new "hyper market" they could just fudge all their accounting( remember Arthur Anderson consulting?) and by the time anyone figured it out they would be long gone(remember Anderson consulting?) Well, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but eventually the SEC will atleast ask to see your books.
    okay now wait for it......The 9/11 attacks were directly responcible for the destruction of THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, which for the past 35 odd years was the center of the financial universe. Now, when we factor in the numerous "put options" placed on key airlines and insurance companies, along with the miraculous destruction of WTC 7, which housed the SEC records of all those creative accounting efforts, you can reasonably assume(could be a coincidence) that the 9/11 attacks were motivated by profiteering!

  23. Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino
    I'll try not to sound too serious, mostly because it's all out of my control but...The Stock Market exist only to create wealth through the perception of "value". This has been the most abused "tool" ever concieved.(supreme beings aside) The real estate market is a close second, only because the land does actually exist. I remember the financial world about 10 years ago when this thing called the internet took off and these guys who called themselves "day traders" would just pump and dump stocks all day. Companies with astronomically backwards P/e ratios ruled the roost. Then there was these real smart guys from Enron, Worldcom,Adelphia, ect. They realized that with the new "hyper market" they could just fudge all their accounting( remember Arthur Anderson consulting?) and by the time anyone figured it out they would be long gone(remember Anderson consulting?) Well, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but eventually the SEC will atleast ask to see your books.
    okay now wait for it......The 9/11 attacks were directly responcible for the destruction of THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, which for the past 35 odd years was the center of the financial universe. Now, when we factor in the numerous "put options" placed on key airlines and insurance companies, along with the miraculous destruction of WTC 7, which housed the SEC records of all those creative accounting efforts, you can reasonably assume(could be a coincidence) that the 9/11 attacks were motivated by profiteering!
    OMG...

    Its like you completely ignore the financial records of the last 5 years.

    I can't even respond to something like this because its SO out there and you group the Internet stock boom of the 90's and subsequent fraud with the whole system.

    I guess you haven't watched the stocks of airlines and certain insurance companies in the last 5 years since it would blow your whole argument out of the water.
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I made my comment because we already did this in the other thread. Whenever another viewpoint came up, instead of looking at what they said you automatically attacked their credibility because of their political views.

    I actually gave you pages upon pages that disproved the claims of the original video that was posted by LakemountD. When the popular science article was posted you questioned the author's credibility.


    I never said you wouldn't listen, I said you wouldn't believe it. It comes down to you associating the 911 commission being the tell all document about 911 and anyone who has studies contemporary governmental history knows that any commission is basically going to protect national security first then give a valid explanation suitable for the general public second. Are they lying? Of course they are. That's what its supposed to do when it comes to national security and its been that way since this country was founded.

    There is a reason most politicians aren't up in arms about this. They know how it works and it will continue to work this way. Those who do raise questions are trying to be elected and once elected you wont' hear them talk about it again. The government lies. Sorry to break the news to you but it ALWAYS been that way. That doesnt mean they murdered 3000 people. It means they are covering up their incompetence in which every administration is guilty of.
    Ok show me where I immediately attacked someone for their political views and ignored what they said. I'm not a politically motivated person. Biohazzard and I have gotten into pissin matches but we both don't take it seriously, as he's always over the top.I questioned the pmech articles credibilty the same as you would question the credibilty of one written by alex jones-it was written by the cousin of the director of homeland security. You seriously think that is a truly unbiased source during a debate like this? And as for motive, still noone wants to explain the northwoods thing. And if someone does have an explaination or debunking of it, I'd love to hear it because the government I worked for wrote it and it's disheartening to be a part of something like that. Just because the government lies does not make it right or that people won't get mad at it. And you don't know any more than I do what the honest to God, 100% truth is in any of this. None of us do, I have said that before and I respect other opinions than my own, but getting called crazy and told what my beliefs are is getting old, so I think I'm just going to step out of this.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    Ok show me where I immediately attacked someone for their political views and ignored what they said. I'm not a politically motivated person. Biohazzard and I have gotten into pissin matches but we both don't take it seriously, as he's always over the top.I questioned the pmech articles credibilty the same as you would question the credibilty of one written by alex jones-it was written by the cousin of the director of homeland security. You seriously think that is a truly unbiased source during a debate like this? And as for motive, still noone wants to explain the northwoods thing. And if someone does have an explaination or debunking of it, I'd love to hear it because the government I worked for wrote it and it's disheartening to be a part of something like that. Just because the government lies does not make it right or that people won't get mad at it. And you don't know any more than I do what the honest to God, 100% truth is in any of this. None of us do, I have said that before and I respect other opinions than my own, but getting called crazy and told what my beliefs are is getting old, so I think I'm just going to step out of this.
    I never said you ignored people.

    I never said you were crazy.

    I said you won't believe the opposing point of view no matter how credible the evidence is because you seem to want believe that since the government lies about a commissions report that they must have murdered 3000 people. Anyone who has studied contemporary government history in a formal setting can smell the bull**** form a mile away but also are sensible enough to know that the US government doesnt commit mass murder of its own citizens and infrastructure for money.

    Just because there is a connection, even in the slightest, doesnt mean there is an inherited lie or conspiracy. People work in networks. Its human nature.
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  26. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I never said you ignored people.

    I never said you were crazy.

    I said you won't believe the opposing point of view no matter how credible the evidence is because you seem to want believe that since the government lies about a commissions report that they must have murdered 3000 people. Anyone who has studied contemporary government history in a formal setting can smell the bull**** form a mile away but also are sensible enough to know that the US government doesnt commit mass murder of its own citizens and infrastructure for money.

    Just because their is a connection, even in the slightest, doesnt mean there is an inherited lie or conspiracy. People work in networks. Its human nature.

    I don't know why you keep insisting on saying I'm closed minded and don't want to believe this or that. Even in this thread I disagreed with you on the fisa issue, listened to what you had to say, and realized that I had a misunderstanding of it. The reason I believe the government is capable of doing this stuff is Operation Northwoods. Have you read it? And if you have, (I'm not being sarcastic here) what do you think of it, and can you honestly say that I should just ignore it? To me it's pretty f'd up. No b.s., I'd like to hear your opinion of it, as you are completely the other side of the argument.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by jarhead
    I don't know why you keep insisting on saying I'm closed minded and don't want to believe this or that. Even in this thread I disagreed with you on the fisa issue, listened to what you had to say, and realized that I had a misunderstanding of it. The reason I believe the government the government is capable of doing this stuff is Operation Northwoods. Have you read it? And if you have, (I'm not being sarcastic here) what do you think of it, and can you honestly say that I should just ignore it? To me it's pretty f'd up. No b.s., I'd like to hear your opinion of it, as you are completely the other side of the argument.
    Once again, I didn't say you were closed minded. I said you don't BELIEVE other POINTS OF VIEW as in OPINION based on evidence. Its pretty tough to argue against the FISA issue when the law is specific and the author has commented himself.

    As for the Operations Northwood, what point are you trying to make? You are associating Cold War operations with the current conflict? Or are you trying to prove a point that the US government lies in terms of foreign policy?
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  28. Anyone interested in starting a thread titled:

    Who really shot JFK?

    JK. Just trying to lighten things up in here as it seems to be getting a bit edgy.

  29. I would be happy to discuss this further jarhead but I have to go. As for Opertioan Northwood, yes its a prime exmaple of how US foriegn policy can work but you have to remember that this was during the heart of the Cold War in which MUCH less oversight was carried out.


    Today, its almost impossible to do that without getting caught and you have already seen that with intelligence from only 4-5 years ago. Back then you could bury it. Today, its impossible. All you have to do it look at the CIA leak case now.
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  30. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Once again, I didn't say you were closed minded. I said you don't BELIEVE other POINTS OF VIEW as in OPINION based on evidence. Its pretty tough to argue against the FISA issue when the law is specific and the author has commented himself.

    As for the Operations Northwood, what point are you trying to make? You are associating Cold War operations with the current conflict? Or are you trying to prove a point that the US government lies in terms of foreign policy?
    There is more than one opinion in the world. You can find evidence to support any opinion if you look hard enough. I am not stuck on one belief. If I see evidence to change my mind, I change my mind. I didn't get involved in these threads to change anyones mind. I like seeing the opposing views of things.


    Other than that, my point is that you keep saying that the idea the government would stage an attack on its own people is ludicrous. The document spells out exactly that,staging terrorist attacks and blaming cuba for the purpose of getting into an unpopular war with cuba. I know that the government lies. I've been lied to directly by them myself in the military. The point is, regardless of the time period, it shows what they are willing to do. Have you read it and if so what 's your opinion?
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