opinions are like A-holes, whats yours?

[revodrew]

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/Iraq

Give in, dont give in?

 

[delta314]

I say give in. One American is worth a hundred of them. (just like the way Israel trades with the terrorists)

 

[jarhead]

I don't agree with giving in to "terrorist" demands, but I say we let the women go in this case. We shouldn't have kidnapped er.. detained them in the first place.

 

[delta314]

I don't agree with giving in to "terrorist" demands, but I say we let the women go in this case. We shouldn't have kidnapped er.. detained them in the first place.

:icon_lol: You're right. But we only "detain" them, the terrorists have a tendency to behead them on National tv. :saw:

 

[jarhead]

Yeah you're right. But the chainsaw? :twisted: :rofl:
"And the winner for 'best use of a smilie' goes to....Delta!":clap2:

 

[brogers]

Giving into terrorist demands sets a terrible precedent that will only result in MORE kidnappings/beheadings in the future. If they think kidnapping innocent civilians is a bargaining tool with a civilized nation they are wrong. I can't wait until these sickos are wiped from the planet.

 

[jarhead]

Giving into terrorist demands sets a terrible precedent that will only result in MORE kidnappings/beheadings in the future. If they think kidnapping innocent civilians is a bargaining tool with a civilized nation they are wrong. I can't wait until these sickos are wiped from the planet.

It's not that simple in this case. We did the same thing to them(kidnapped their wives. As delta pointed out, the only difference is that we won't behead them. But on the other hand you're right, it does set a precedent. This is a tough one.

 

[delta314]

As a general rule, I do not support dealing with terrorists at all. There are exceptions to every case, but most of the time refusal to deal is the way to go. Having a top knotch sniper team available is always a plus.
I don't think we should have taken their wives, but hey, they would take ours if given the chance. War was so much more rewarding back in the day. Your army lined up on this side, ours lined up on the other side, somebody yelled, and it was Katie bar the door til the last man standing.:nutkick:

 

[Mrs. Gimpy!]

I say give in. One American is worth a hundred of them. (just like the way Israel trades with the terrorists)

:blink: i dont think thats a good idea, but at the same thim if it was a loved one of mine, i might cchange my mind, you really cant say what yyou would do unless you were unfortunate enough to be in that situation. to give in to me, shows weakness and only more bad can come out of that.

 

[bpmartyr]

Every time they harm even a hair of an Americans head,...... level a city. Sunni triangle should have been leveled long ago. We need to fight wars like, well, wars. Remember WWII? We carpet bombed citys, civilians and all. $0.02

 

[Mrs. Gimpy!]

Every time they harm even a hair of an Americans head,...... level a city. Sunni triangle should have been leveled long ago. We need to fight wars like, well, wars. Remember WWII? We carpet bombed citys, civilians and all. $0.02

sounds kinda "michael savage"ish to me...lol.

wait...i love michael savage.... im with u!

 

[brogers]

sounds kinda "michael savage"ish to me...lol.

wait...i love michael savage.... im with u!

Yeah I'm pretty sure I heard that almost exactly the same statement on his show tonight!

I most defintely agree with it. Japan was practically a wasteland by the end of WWII, but we had do what was neccesary for victory. Sadly I don't think our government today is capable of doing what we have to do to win this fight.

IMO, we need less "democracy spreading" and more B2 sorties.

 

[jenkins]

Every time they harm even a hair of an Americans head,...... level a city. Sunni triangle should have been leveled long ago. We need to fight wars like, well, wars. Remember WWII? We carpet bombed citys, civilians and all. $0.02

no **** right. its as if the american public thinks wars arent supposed to be bad or something. i think we should stop fucking around and start killing bodies.

 

[Beelzebub]

i take from swordfish:

Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans.

 

[milwood]

i take from swordfish:

Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans.

Rediculous? Maybe in practical application, but theoretically right to the point! It is almost imperative to fight this kind of enemy using the language that they understand and consequences they can experience, which send them the clear message that a cost/benefit analysis of their terrorist action indicates clearly that the costs (to them) outweigh the benefits.

The clear message, as well, must remain that there are no negotiations with terrorists.

 

[Beelzebub]

and for the record, i say don't give in. i'm 110% sure my opinion would be different if someone i knew was held captive, but that would be an emotional response. the fact is if we make them aware of our weakness when it comes to pulling out all the stops for rescuing american women, that's all they will concentrate on from here on out. it's a tough call either way, but that's what i'd do. war is dirty. if they decide to play dirtier and execute the american woman, we should execute every one of theirs that we have. this politically correct war is what's fucking us up. all the politicians are worried about winning their next election, and not thinking about how to win a war.

 

[Beelzebub]

The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.
- Sun Tzu

 

[Iron Warrior]

Every time they harm even a hair of an Americans head,...... level a city. Sunni triangle should have been leveled long ago. We need to fight wars like, well, wars. Remember WWII? We carpet bombed citys, civilians and all. $0.02

This is a necessary step, I as a leader would do it out of respect for the lives of the volunteer soldiers who make a great sacrafice for us. I say "Kill 'em all" just like Metallica's first album :head: and no, I'm not psycho, we're dealing with psycopaths here and the only way to handle them is by extremely brutal force

 

[jarhead]

Well since noone else has said it yet....

Chuck Norris doesn't negotiate with terrorists, terrorists negotiate with Chuck norris.

 

[The Experiment]

All this move did was prove that we're no better than the terrorists, the same savage assholes who take us hostage and torture soldiers and civilians.Oh wait, we have those secret CIA torture prisons in Eastern Europe.

Pretty shameful on the US's part but the Administration is full of bullshit like this so its not surprising.

 

[spatch]

i take from swordfish:

Anyone who impinges on America's freedom. Terrorist states, Stanley. Someone must bring their war to them. They bomb a church, we bomb 10. They hijack a plane, we take out an airport. They execute American tourist, we tactically nuke an entire city. Our job is to make terrorism so horrific that is becomes unthinkable to attack Americans.

I'm like a broken record with these, but here they are again.

1) "Darkness can not remove darkness, only light can remove darkness. Hate can not remove hate, only love can remove hate." MLK jr.


2) If we never supported Israel, the terrorist wouldn't hate us.


BTW, what heartless, souless ass whole voted for choice #3

 

[Beelzebub]

yeah yeah, maybe we can all hold hands and sing 'kumbaya'.

 

[brogers]

All this move did was prove that we're no better than the terrorists, the same savage assholes who take us hostage and torture soldiers and civilians.Oh wait, we have those secret CIA torture prisons in Eastern Europe.

Pretty shameful on the US's part but the Administration is full of bullshit like this so its not surprising.

Says the man with Che' in his avatar.

You think we're on the same level as terrorists? You need a reality check...

 

[spatch]

yeah yeah, maybe we can all hold hands and sing 'kumbaya'.

1000 Black Panthers with guns did less then the peacefull words of 1 man...

 

[brogers]

I'm like a broken record with these, but here they are again.

1) "Darkness can not remove darkness, only light can remove darkness. Hate can not remove hate, only love can remove hate." MLK jr.


2) If we never supported Israel, the terrorist wouldn't hate us.


BTW, what heartless, souless ass whole voted for choice #3

1) There will never be peace without victory of one side. Compromise will never occur with radical islamists.

2) So we shouldn't support nations with similar values and government to our own? We should have sided with the sickos in Palestine who now blow themselves up in crowded areas with the intent of murdering as many innocent men, women, and children as possible? Should we take sides with Iran now, they also hate us because we support Israel?

You don't stop doing the right thing just because the terrorists "wouldn't hate us." You don't condone, or look the other way when someone preaches genocide. You annihilate evil and show the rest of the world that such behavior is completely unacceptable and will be dealt with.

 

[delta314]

I'm like a broken record with these, but here they are again.

1) "Darkness can not remove darkness, only light can remove darkness. Hate can not remove hate, only love can remove hate." MLK jr.


2) If we never supported Israel, the terrorist wouldn't hate us.

Yeah, you are like a broken record. Who would you support? The terrorists? Or would you just keep your nose buried in the sand and mind your own business until terrorists had taken all the little countries and there was no one left for them to terrorize except us? Who gives a **** if the terrorists hate us? As long as they fear us, I could care less, as their opinions are as useless as a broken record. When a record gets broken, I throw it away. It has no value...

 

[The Experiment]

Says the man with Che' in his avatar.

You think we're on the same level as terrorists? You need a reality check...

How in the hell are we not on the same level?

Capturing civilians? Check. We're capturing wives. Bringing family into this is really, really low. Just because the shithead terrorists do it doesn't mean we have to.

Torturing POWs? Check. We have secret torture camps in Eastern Europe. Or closer to Iraq, the Abu Ghraib prison.

The only difference I see is that the Coalition doesn't behead the people they capture on tape.

I don't see how my avatar has anything to do with the discussion. Nice try though.

1000 Black Panthers with guns did less then the peacefull words of 1 man...

Don't forget Gandhi, which was supposedly the main inspiration from MLK.

There will never be peace without victory of one side. Compromise will never occur with radical islamists.

Thats a pretty tunnel visioned way to look at things. Instead of saying, "Lets kill em all!", we need to look at why they are willing to pull this ****, kill their own people. We need to look at how they get their money. We're buddies with Saudi Arabia, who doesn't hide the fact that they give these organizations money. We then need to look at how we're dicking around that area since the 1950s. The US fucked Iran and Afghanistan over in the 1970s and 1980s.

Hindsight is 20/20 so **** the past. We need solutions now and its not to kill, kill, and kill some more. That just gives these organizations a reason to exist. We need to uncover real solutions.

So we shouldn't support nations with similar values and government to our own? We should have sided with the sickos in Palestine who now blow themselves up in crowded areas with the intent of murdering as many innocent men, women, and children as possible? Should we take sides with Iran now, they also hate us because we support Israel?

Stop looking at things as black and white. Its that kind of ass-backwards thinking that causes this **** in the first place. Hell, its the mentally of the radical Muslims: "They're either with us or against us."

You don't stop doing the right thing just because the terrorists "wouldn't hate us." You don't condone, or look the other way when someone preaches genocide. You annihilate evil and show the rest of the world that such behavior is completely unacceptable and will be dealt with.

What exactly is the right thing? Kicking out a leader without waiting to see if the fucking weapons were there? Placing military bases on Muslim holy lands? Organizing coups that come back to bite us in the ass later?

I'm fiercely pro American but anyone with a shred of common sense must realize that the US fucked up big time with the Middle East. Once this Iraq **** is over, we need to get back to basics: paying off the trillions in debt, curbing poverty and unemployment, educating our people, and furthering society with more opportunities for all.

 

[Iron Warrior]

I'm like a broken record with these, but here they are again.

1) "Darkness can not remove darkness, only light can remove darkness. Hate can not remove hate, only love can remove hate." MLK jr.


2) If we never supported Israel, the terrorist wouldn't hate us.


BTW, what heartless, souless ass whole voted for choice #3

Dude, these TERRORISTS can't be dealt with in the same fashion as MLK Jr dealt with racism and civil rights, they are different issues. Terrorists must be killed not reformed and in order to do so you will have to use brutal force and accept that there will be civilians killed, I'm sure the terrorist didn't mind killing 3,000 innocent Americans, they didn't care about blowing up a train in England when innocent people were going to work, they didn't care about holding a school with elementary KIDS hostage in Russia, they didn't care then and they don't care now.

 

[delta314]

How in the hell are we not on the same level?

Capturing civilians? Check. We're capturing wives. Bringing family into this is really, really low. Just because the shithead terrorists do it doesn't mean we have to.

Torturing POWs? Check. We have secret torture camps in Eastern Europe. Or closer to Iraq, the Abu Ghraib prison.

The only difference I see is that the Coalition doesn't behead the people they capture on tape..

If you think we are on the same level as them, you're as out of touch with reality as they are.

Don't forget Gandhi, which was supposedly the main inspiration from MLK.



Thats a pretty tunnel visioned way to look at things. Instead of saying, "Lets kill em all!", we need to look at why they are willing to pull this ****, kill their own people. We need to look at how they get their money. We're buddies with Saudi Arabia, who doesn't hide the fact that they give these organizations money. We then need to look at how we're dicking around that area since the 1950s. The US fucked Iran and Afghanistan over in the 1970s and 1980s.

Hindsight is 20/20 so **** the past. We need solutions now and its not to kill, kill, and kill some more. That just gives these organizations a reason to exist. We need to uncover real solutions...

Why do they pull this ****? You tell me. These people don't put the same value on life as we do. That is evident in their actions. Sending your children out to blow up. If becoming a martyr is such a wonderful thing, why don't the adult terrorists go out and do it? Because they are chickenshit, thats why. It is much easier to send out children that don't know better. You're right, we shouldn't give any of them any money, just go in and kick their ass and then leave. But we always try to help the people in hopes that they will seee the error in their ways....

Stop looking at things as black and white. Its that kind of ass-backwards thinking that causes this **** in the first place. Hell, its the mentally of the radical Muslims: "They're either with us or against us."



What exactly is the right thing? Kicking out a leader without waiting to see if the fucking weapons were there? Placing military bases on Muslim holy lands? Organizing coups that come back to bite us in the ass later?...

Black and white is usually a very good way to look at things. What have we missed?

I'm fiercely pro American but anyone with a shred of common sense must realize that the US fucked up big time with the Middle East. Once this Iraq **** is over, we need to get back to basics: paying off the trillions in debt, curbing poverty and unemployment, educating our people, and furthering society with more opportunities for all.

Fiercely pro American? You sure don't sound like it. So you have all the common sense and anyone that doesn't agree with your views doesn't? I don't think so. I think the US has done the right thing in the Middle East. I hope we will continue. I've heard first hand the thanks the Iraqi people feel for what we have done to make freedom a reality for them.

 

[spatch]

I'll admit it now...


I would make a sucky government leader of any kind.

 

[T.R.D TopDog]

Never give in to terrorist demands.... All it shows is weakness.... If you give in once, than they know...you'll give in again....It gives them power...

 

[satchmo23]

How in the hell are we not on the same level?



I don't see how my avatar has anything to do with the discussion. Nice try though.



.

Actually having Che Guevara in your avatar says alot. It says alot about anyone who walks around with those stupid shirts. Che was a communist extremist. Period. He is on par (if alive by his own admission) with Castro himself. I guess my point is why in the world should your opinions be considered valid or rational in anyway if you put a villian like that on a pedestal? I'm actually curious as to why you or anyone would appreciate a character like that. Not that it has to do with this thread but always seeing those 13-21 yr olds with those shirts really always bothered the piss outta me. Anyone else?

 

[ex_banana-eater]

All this move did was prove that we're no better than the terrorists, the same savage assholes who take us hostage and torture soldiers and civilians.Oh wait, we have those secret CIA torture prisons in Eastern Europe.

Pretty shameful on the US's part but the Administration is full of bullshit like this so its not surprising.

There is no difference between a criminal shooting a cop and a cop shooting a criminal?

You are a-contextual. Iraq does not have rights as a state, and those who initiate force against a free country (Islamists) have no rights either. Not only is it not bad to strike them with our hardest fist, it is a moral imperative.

You are treating the acts as if they are a categorical imperative. But life is not Kant's dream-world--all actions have contexts which make them moral or not. I am not a moral equal to an intruder who breaks into my house and puts a gun to my sister's head. Our acts--pointing guns or shooting may be the same, but the morality of the act depends on the context.

 

[ex_banana-eater]

2) So we shouldn't support nations with similar values and government to our own? We should have sided with the sickos in Palestine who now blow themselves up in crowded areas with the intent of murdering as many innocent men, women, and children as possible? Should we take sides with Iran now, they also hate us because we support Israel?

As far as I know, the US has given millions of dollars in aid to the Palestinian Authority in the past. This government is an authoritarian dictatorship which funds suicide bombers to attack Israelis.

I believe the US also supports a "two-state solution," which means compromise between a free country that respects that rights of its citizens, and a slave-state that is a launchpad for the destruction of the free country next to it.

 

[ex_banana-eater]

How in the hell are we not on the same level?

The only difference I see is that the Coalition doesn't behead the people they capture on tape.

Because Islamist states initiated the use of force against the West. They invited self-defence on behalf of the free countries.

Let me ask you something--there was this war 60 years ago. WWII. And there was this militaristic dictatorship called Japan bent on domination and slavery of the entire Pacific. The US attacked this country and bombed their cities at a phenomenal rate to destroy the industrial machine that drove their brutal state. If we look at it your way, without the context of actions, but keeping them as separate, floating abstractions, we would determine the US was the evil party in this war. Japan killed no American civilians (or very little) while the US blasted away at least a million. Would you agree with the logical extension of your acontextual idealogy--that Japan was the good side of WWII and the US should have lost?

 

[ex_banana-eater]

Stop looking at things as black and white. Its that kind of ass-backwards thinking that causes this **** in the first place. Hell, its the mentally of the radical Muslims: "They're either with us or against us."

This is the logical fallacy of equivocation, and in this case is the result of divorcing context from morality. If Muslims think in black and white it does not disqualify black and white thinking. It may simply disqualify the ideology in which they base their thinking--Islamism.


From Ayn Rand's Playboy interview:

PLAYBOY: In Atlas Shrugged you wrote, "There are two sides to every issue. One side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil." Isn't this a rather black-and-white set of values?

RAND: It most certainly is. I most emphatically advocate a black-and-white view of the world. Let us define this. What is meant by the expression "black and white"? It means good and evil. Before you can identify anything as gray, as middle of the road, you have to know what is black and what is white, because gray is merely a mixture of the two. And when you have established that one alternative is good and the other is evil, there is no justification for the choice of a mixture. There is no justification ever for choosing any part of what you know to be evil.

 

[brogers]

As far as I know, the US has given millions of dollars in aid to the Palestinian Authority in the past. This government is an authoritarian dictatorship which funds suicide bombers to attack Israelis.

I believe the US also supports a "two-state solution," which means compromise between a free country that respects that rights of its citizens, and a slave-state that is a launchpad for the destruction of the free country next to it.

This is true, but the point was, you don't stop supporting Israel just because "terrorists are mad at us for supporting IsraeL"

 

[ex_banana-eater]

This is true, but the point was, you don't stop supporting Israel just because "terrorists are mad at us for supporting IsraeL"

Right. The "White" side of this issue would be to end our support of a two state solution, as a dictatorship in Palestine has no right to exist, especially as a launching pad for militant Islamists to attack the only remotely free state in the region. It would be to instruct Israel that they have the moral right to persue any means for their self-defence.

I understand your point, but I don't think the right ideas are said often enough to have a voice--so I included it.

 

[CROWLER]

Holy CRAP


Exbannana eater welcome back. Where the HELL have you been and how are you bro?


CROWLER

 

[revodrew]

I say flatten it out and make a huge fishing and gamming area. And of course a huge gym. Seriously though, when we take theres, they are givin food, not thrown across TV to use as bargining tools. We need to end this now. Start your engines boys!! Blow that **** hole up!!!

 

[The Experiment]

Actually having Che Guevara in your avatar says alot

Actually, the Che avatar back story is that I let my hair grow out for a while and a friend who was drunk at a party told me I looked just like him.

Although I won't get in the way of your fanatical tirades.

Would you agree with the logical extension of your acontextual idealogy--that Japan was the good side of WWII and the US should have lost?

What in the ****? Is there any time where I said the US should lose in any situation?

Nice try though.

 

[ex_banana-eater]

Holy CRAP
Exbannana eater welcome back. Where the HELL have you been and how are you bro?
CROWLER

Hi Crowler :wave:

I am doing great. I was very busy for the last couple years and also decided to focus on priorities other than bodybuilding. I still trained but did not research or post as much. Nice to see some familiar faces.

 

[ex_banana-eater]

What in the ****? Is there any time where I said the US should lose in any situation?

This is taking your ideas to their full, unseen consequences.

 

[Beelzebub]

he's got ayn rand in his sig. must be smart

 

[jarhead]

he's got ayn rand in his sig. must be smart

Mike Mentzer always quoted ayn rand too, and he was able to grow a bitchin mustache.

 

[DmitryWI]

I’ll tell you from me spiritual point of view. There is only one God, you are with Him or against Him on demons side. God doesn’t negotiate with demons, He kills ‘em all.