Not really politics, but Evolution... (cont. a thread)

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Wrap your mind around this one

    In the beginning there was 0, then there was 1. An interesting perspective once we have 0's and 1's, but doesn't explain the transition from 0 to 1, nor even the mechanism of how 0 came to represent nothing, nor even how 0 is read and understood as nothing, nor even a placeholder for nothing, and on and on.

    Unfortunately, similar to the Big Bang Theory. Putting aside some of the current problems posed by Quasars, the thing goes entirely limp when it's most needed...... What was the condition of nature just prior to the bang, and what caused it to go bang. No known model can explain singularities, nor concepts like infinite density.


  2. In the beginning there was 0, then there was 1. An interesting perspective once we have 0's and 1's, but doesn't explain the transition from 0 to 1, nor even the mechanism of how 0 came to represent nothing, nor even how 0 is read and understood as nothing, nor even a placeholder for nothing, and on and on.
    Well I think his point was the the most basic state of reality is that something either exists or it doesnt, 0 and 1. In this reality, that's pretty sound reasoning.

    I see your point though, what came before 0? I dont think we can fathom the answers to that question with our human intellects, although someday perhaps.

    I get the feeling that our 3 dimensional reality is just a very, very tiny fragment of the 'big picture'. Perhaps, like others have stated, its all just an illusion.

    BV
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Well I think his point was the the most basic state of reality is that something either exists or it doesnt, 0 and 1. In this reality, that's pretty sound reasoning.

    I see your point though, what came before 0? I dont think we can fathom the answers to that question with our human intellects, although someday perhaps.

    I get the feeling that our 3 dimensional reality is just a very, very tiny fragment of the 'big picture'. Perhaps, like others have stated, its all just an illusion.

    BV
    I think you may be short changing the human mind a little bit. The concepts of "... in the beginning there was the word ", or that before 1 there was 0 and all quantum theories have a common human bond. These concepts can all be reduced to the point of human understanding as the point of their conception.

    The human mind had to conceive that there could be the possiblity of a creator and that we are not alone in the universe. Many philosophies ask; Did god created us or did we create god? The concept of (1) would have to preceed its own absence(0). So, technically (1) preceeds (0) in the order of discovery. The concept of a diety has to be deconstructed, so even if a creator exists as evident by existance itself, the concept of that creator's existance would preceed any search for evidence of the creators existance!...now my head really hurts.

  4. The basic limitation of human mind is founded on its reliance on concepts. Concepts are not reality, but rather a limited, truncated, partial representation thereof. From this very limitation stems the limitations of what we call "thought" and "mind".

    Some researchers have been re-engineering their own minds to avoid reliance on these very poor reality substitutes, with great success. What ensues is a radically different thought process, one that for the most part doesn't rely on logic and reasoning per se, but yet does provide results that stand up extremely well to the tests of logic.

    This would be extremely threatening to the ordinary person's psychology, which is founded on insecurity and thus requires the feeling of knowing why and how a conclusion is reached, leaving the universality and absoluteness of said conclusion as a secondary point.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Grunt76
    Some researchers have been re-engineering their own minds to avoid reliance on these very poor reality substitutes, with great success. What ensues is a radically different thought process, one that for the most part doesn't rely on logic and reasoning per se, but yet does provide results that stand up extremely well to the tests of logic.
    I quite often do this...
    and yes it is very benefitial.
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  6. I think you may be short changing the human mind a little bit. The concepts of "... in the beginning there was the word ", or that before 1 there was 0 and all quantum theories have a common human bond. These concepts can all be reduced to the point of human understanding as the point of their conception.
    Having evolved over the past few million years to survive and flourish in this 3 dimensional reality, I would assume that if suddenly presented with the Truth of Everything, our brain would not be able to grasp it. Think about it - if this is really a multidimensional multiverse - what does it look like to be in the 5th dimension? Would we even have the sense organs to survive in such a space?

    Or, is that space all around us, but our brain filters out the information that it doesnt need to get on in our little 3D microcosm?

    Like Grunt mentioned, the human mind has an amazing capability for adaptation. Perhaps there would be a way to 'tune in' to higher levels of perception. Then you're getting on into metaphysics though, as even if you have experienced it, how do you quantify or describe it?

    BV
    Last edited by BigVrunga; 02-13-2006 at 11:41 PM.

  7. All very interesting points, BV!

    We wouldn't technically be 'in' the 5th dimension, it just "would be" a dimension, however we may not be able to understand it. And, I guess, its entirely possible that we could be living with entirely different beings. Think about it for a minute..the majority of your body is actually empty space...like 99.9...9% is empty space. The only reason we don't fall through the floor, for example, is that the amazing power of the electromagnetic force (a universal force amongst things we're aware of) repels us....and that's it. Technically, a guy falling from a skyscraper and splattering on the sidewalk deccelerates before he stops, however, the electromagnetic force is just so powerful it seems instantaneous to us. But, what if there was matter that was not effected by the electromagnetic force (or 'our' gravity, etc.)? And, what if this type of matter made up other living organisms bodies' that traveled at a frequency that we cannot pick up with our physical or mechanical sensory equipment? Heck, I guess technically we could be walking right through one another and not even know it!

  8. Actually, since every subatomic particle that makes up solid bodies is so very "far" distant from each other relative to their size, quantum physicysts do not have any explanation why two solids cannot interpenetrate with extreme ease and even occupy the same space.

    IOW there is no reason why we don't walk through walls. Quantum physics calculations rather eloquently demonstrate that it is our firm belief that this is impossible that makes it so. Something about the observer of a phenomena being involved in it by simply observing. Which also means that mind is the ultimate frontier, not matter, dimensions, space or whatever else. We have everything ass-backwards as a race. Of course, once scientists found out that they are looking at the universe in an inverted manner, the conclusion is that their minds must then be un-inverted. They don't like that idea one bit.

  9. IOW there is no reason why we don't walk through walls. Quantum physics calculations rather eloquently demonstrate that it is our firm belief that this is impossible that makes it so.
    There is no spoon....

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Grunt76
    Actually, since every subatomic particle that makes up solid bodies is so very "far" distant from each other relative to their size, quantum physicysts do not have any explanation why two solids cannot interpenetrate with extreme ease and even occupy the same space.

    IOW there is no reason why we don't walk through walls. Quantum physics calculations rather eloquently demonstrate that it is our firm belief that this is impossible that makes it so.
    But...
    Our most direct experience with electromagnetic forces comes from the fact that they are responsible for holding together the molecules that make up solid objects. Thus electromagnetic forces are also the source of the ``repulsive'' contact forces we feel when we touch or hit solid objects. Electromagnetic forces keep you from falling through the chair that you are sitting on while you read this.
    http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node20.html

    ????

    I'm lost on this one here, I was taught that the electromagnetic force was the reason we feel such things as repulsion (and static electricty among other things)...

  11. Yes. Just as we all know that there is a way to observe the position, speed and direction of any observable object. Right?

    Right, unless it is a quantum object, in which case if you observe its position, its direction is whichever, and vice-versa but you can never know BOTH where it is and where it's headed.

    My point is that quantum physics has laws that are radically different from classic physics. Interestingly, the building blocks of all classic physical phenomena are the quanta themselves. This has been extremely baffling for scientists, who have to put themselves in either category "classic physicists" or "quantum physicists".

    So in classic physics, the repulsion by electromagnetic force is used as an explanation for classic phenomena, but quantum physics proves that this is false. So you have on one hand observable, macro phenomena that obey one set of laws and at the "micro" (or, more appropriately, "subatomic") level an entirely different set of laws that make the macro phenomenon a stupidly improbable outcome. Baffling.

  12. It is baffling. With issues like this, it always seems like the answer is so far out of reach until another Einstein comes along and shows us it was just around the corner, and all because he could look at it from a different (sometimes radically different) viewpoint.

    One thing that is always on my mind is the probability of life elsewhere in the universe. There's no doubt in my mind its out there somewhere. But so far away!! At least, to a human being with a lifespan of ~80 years its far away, because it would take many lifetimes to get to such a place, even at the speed of light.

    I often wonder if in this realm of quantum physics lie the keys to travel throughout the physical universe - perhaps by stepping outside the boundries of our 4 dimensional contraints. I know that nothing can accelerate faster than the speed of light, but what if a particle was going faster than light upon its inception? Would the same laws apply? I know that some physicists have speculated that particles like this may exist (tachyons), but can't prove it so far.

    BV

  13. a friend and i had a discussion about the laws that bind us a few years back. sounds a little weird but how about our dream reality? in dreams, there are no laws that we must follow. you want to go to china? sure, think about it and you're there. want to fold up your bike put it in your pocket? no problem. it's the laws that we're taught from our upbringing that limits our perception of the world. creativity is squashed, imagination trampled on. our 'laws' of science are conditional being they were created by man. ya'll are obviously more spun up on the subject than i am, but i find it interesting nonetheless. good conversation going on here.

  14. the mind is a powerful thing. we were talking about this recently in school in reference to quantum physics. a tables' molecular structure was observed and noted. then, they brought in a group of people whose job was nothing else than to think about and concentrate on this table. molecular structure was checked again and it had changed, simply from them concentrating on it.

  15. Next up: walking through walls

  16. the mind is a powerful thing. we were talking about this recently in school in reference to quantum physics. a tables' molecular structure was observed and noted. then, they brought in a group of people whose job was nothing else than to think about and concentrate on this table. molecular structure was checked again and it had changed, simply from them concentrating on it.
    Ive read about this. Scientists 'expecting' to find a subatomic particle in a certain place and it 'appears' there.

    Regarding dream reality...this gets into some pretty heavy metaphysics stuff but have any of you ever read up on astral projection? Im not talking about mysticism, boogaboogaImaClairvoyant astral projection, but actually trying to achieve a different level of consciousness by 'manipulating' your conscious mind as your brain enters a dreamstate. In other words, not 'shutting down' as you enter sleep, but remaining completely aware and 'delving inward' into the mind.

    Its tough to read about this stuff without wading through a bunch of voodoo mumbojumbo, but some of the research is pretty fascinating. Being able to enter a lucid dream state at will, traveling around 'outside your body', etc. And yeah Grunt, walking through walls

    BV

  17. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Being able to enter a lucid dream state at will, traveling around 'outside your body', BV
    Dangerous... (from my religious point of view)

    i've heard that each time you do this it gets harder and harder to get back into your body. (as well as several other various, severe hazards)

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    Dangerous... (from my religious point of view)

    i've heard that each time you do this it gets harder and harder to get back into your body. (as well as several other various, severe hazards)
    I have a pretty godless point of view and yet I do find that this practice is at best counterproductive and at worst, dowright dangerous. IMO using drugs such as psilocybe mushrooms, ecstasy and LSD is actually LESS dangerous than such things. But equally counterproductive.

    I am utterly convinced that the future of mind expansion is actually a mind contraction. Let me explain. We tend to "go out" for "expansion" of our minds in order to get "more" understanding. But why? I am convinced we should get BETTER understanding instead of continuously exposing our consciousnesses to more and more phenomena when we are still unable to comprehend how our bodies function, what being alive means and last but not least, how "solid matter" works.

    I find that quantum physics has different laws because as the scale gets progressively smaller, the phenomena are less and less 3D and more and more "other-D". By reducing the scale of observation, the depth, width and height of the field of observation shrink, bringing us ever closer to a simple dot, which by definition is the end of 3D space. Whereas it had been previously thought that we would find nothing below a certain treshold, except discontinuousness, I am utterly convinced that the "door" to the rest of the universe is through the dot.

    If we postulate that we are looking at the universe in an upside-down manner, multidimensionnaly-speaking, meaning that we are trying to understand a multidimensional reality out of observing only 3 of its many dimensions, it must follow that whatever remains when minizing the importance of these 3 dimensions constitutes a starting point towards the "rest" of the universe. It is quite understandable to want to go "out" and find out about what's "out there" but this view of things says we must go "in" and not "out". Interestingly this ties in very well with quantum physics.

    It is my take that mind will connect with Absolute reality when it takes the shape and size of a dot, that is a nullification of the importance of the physical senses while still observing matter, life, etc. I find that Astral Voyage is a way to do the reverse, that is to observe other planes with the brain's function of sight, hearing, etc.

    Er, well...

  19. I want to make it clear that I am not bashing mind-exploration or astral voyage. These things are pretty fascinating. What I am saying is that we are living in a world that is quickly turning insane. As such, I feel that mankind does not have the luxury of experimentation for the simple sake of doing so. I feel that any progress in terms of consciousness and mind should first and foremost be geared towards the improvement of daily life here. Understanding our bodies as well as physical matter and eventually planetary life as a whole should thus IMHO be the priority. That's one reason why I'm such a proponent of "here and in" rather than "whenever and out". Ancient civilizations were all fascinated by observations similar to astral voyages, the worlds of spirit, etc. That didn't keep THEM from destruction. So I believe it's time to do something radically different but very sensical. Therefrom stems my approach to these matters.

  20. I have a pretty godless point of view and yet I do find that this practice is at best counterproductive and at worst, dowright dangerous. IMO using drugs such as psilocybe mushrooms, ecstasy and LSD is actually LESS dangerous than such things. But equally counterproductive.
    I dont think its dangerous physically, because even if you were to connect to another level of consciousness your mind is tied to your body...you'll wake up. If this wasnt the case Im sure we'd hear more about people in a comatose state because they lost their way home on an astral voyage.

    When these topics come up, psychoactive drugs inevitably come into focus because of their effect on one's perception of reality (again rasing the question 'What is reality?"). However, this area of interest is best kept to private discussion. Its against board policy to discuss such things due to their legality.

    If we postulate that we are looking at the universe in an upside-down manner, multidimensionnaly-speaking, meaning that we are trying to understand a multidimensional reality out of observing only 3 of its many dimensions, it must follow that whatever remains when minizing the importance of these 3 dimensions constitutes a starting point towards the "rest" of the universe. It is quite understandable to want to go "out" and find out about what's "out there" but this view of things says we must go "in" and not "out". Interestingly this ties in very well with quantum physics.

    It is my take that mind will connect with Absolute reality when it takes the shape and size of a dot, that is a nullification of the importance of the physical senses while still observing matter, life, etc. I find that Astral Voyage is a way to do the reverse, that is to observe other planes with the brain's function of sight, hearing, etc.
    Excellent points Grunt. I spent some time researching astral projection after having a somewhat disconcerting 'accidental' experience myself, and found this site: www.astralpulse.com

    Interstingly, after lurking around their forum for a bit it seems the modern viewpoint on this is not the 'OBE' (out of body experience), but going inward into your consciousness until you 'come out the other side'.

    Its all very strange, and like I mentioned before sometimes difficult to get through because so much of it seems centered on mysticism (although some of the discussions on the astral pulse site are surprisingly scientific in nature) - but they suggest an interesting point...our bodies are bound to this '3d' reality. We cant travel faster than light, lest we stretch ourselves into infinity and deconstruct. But the mind doesnt obey these rules. What are thoughts? What is consciousness? What is a 'soul'? Its not a form of measurable energy, so scientifically you can't 'prove' that it exists. And maybe it doesnt!

    Are these constructs that are bound to this reality as our physical selves are, or are they connected to the multiverse, and our bodies, or all matter for that matter, just a vessel for them to exist in this 3 dimensional space?

    I find that quantum physics has different laws because as the scale gets progressively smaller, the phenomena are less and less 3D and more and more "other-D". By reducing the scale of observation, the depth, width and height of the field of observation shrink, bringing us ever closer to a simple dot, which by definition is the end of 3D space. Whereas it had been previously thought that we would find nothing below a certain treshold, except discontinuousness, I am utterly convinced that the "door" to the rest of the universe is through the dot.
    I agree with you, and thinking about it makes my head hurt.

    BV

  21. I feel that any progress in terms of consciousness and mind should first and foremost be geared towards the improvement of daily life here. Understanding our bodies as well as physical matter and eventually planetary life as a whole should thus IMHO be the priority. That's one reason why I'm such a proponent of "here and in" rather than "whenever and out". Ancient civilizations were all fascinated by observations similar to astral voyages, the worlds of spirit, etc. That didn't keep THEM from destruction. So I believe it's time to do something radically different but very sensical. Therefrom stems my approach to these matters.
    Again, good points. I feel that ancient civilizations were far more enlightened than us in terms of the 'spiritual' side of things, but as you said it did not save them from destruction. What you're calling for, however, would require a mass 'enlightenment' of the entire species.

    And its not something I think the government would want getting out, assuming the Truth of Everything were indeed attainable. If people realized that this life, this reality, was just a temporary state of being in the grand scheme of things who would pay their taxes?
    BV

  22. exactly Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

  23. Another thought - outside of our realm of human consciousness and 3D reality, do emotions exist? Or are they just chemical reactions evolved over the millenia to facilliatte the essential requirements for species proliferation? Child rearing, mating,etc.

    Does 'love' transcend dimensional boundaries? 'Good' and 'Evil', for that matter? Or are our emotions just side effects of biology?

    BV

  24. I can tell you right now that they aren't, that emotions are other-dimensional manifestations of what we are. Good and evil, well I'll take the 5th on that, as my well-backed assertions to that effect would certainly cause a great deal of controversy, especially moreso that the said backing is very arcane...

  25. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    When these topics come up, psychoactive drugs inevitably come into focus because of their effect on one's perception of reality (again rasing the question 'What is reality?").
    We're on the same page (and not in a trashy way)
    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    However, this area of interest is best kept to private discussion. Its against board policy to discuss such things due to their legality.
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