OBAMACARE...JUST A SMOKESCREEN

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  1. one of the guys who was laid off at my work and never called back told me that he was offered COBRA at $600 a week to continue the same healthcare plan...we are talking millions of dollars for a major corporation like where i work at to foot the bill for 70,000 employees at $600 a week.


    there is a $million reasons why business wants out of healthcare, more like a $billion reasons nationwide...i am not talking out my ass, business is very, very motivated to be out of healthcare....obamacare gives them the opportunity without looking like the bad guy.

    if you think about it, it makes sense that obamacare was a plot hatched up by business, with politicians going along with it. i am sure the politicians were sold a bill of goods like...we can end unemployment with all the new hires we could afford to hire....the extra profits would allow us to reopen closed plants and put america back in the forefront in manufacturing...

    i don't believe for a minute any benefit to the average joe will come from business reaping more profits, not for a minute!!!!!!!
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID


  2. Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine - 1961

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

    Transcript:

    Ronald Reagan’s 1961 Coffeecup speech – full text
    Now back in 1927 an American socialist, Norman Thomas, six times candidate for president on the Socialist Party ticket, said the American people would never vote for socialism. But he said under the name of liberalism the American people will adopt every fragment of the socialist program.

    There are many ways in which our government has invaded the precincts of private citizens, the method of earning a living. Our government is in business to the extent over owning more than 19,000 businesses covering different lines of activity. This amounts to a fifth of the total industrial capacity of the United States.

    But at the moment I’d like to talk about another way. Because this threat is with us and at the moment is more imminent.

    One of the traditional methods of imposing statism or socialism on a people has been by way of medicine. It’s very easy to disguise a medical program as a humanitarian project. Most people are a little reluctant to oppose anything that suggests medical care for people who possibly can’t afford it.

    Now, the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it. We had an example of this. Under the Truman administration it was proposed that we have a compulsory health insurance program for all people in the United States, and, of course, the American people unhesitatingly rejected this.


    So, with the American people on record as not wanting socialized medicine, Congressman Ferrand introduced the Ferrand Bill. This was the idea that all people of social security age should be brought under a program of compulsory health insurance. Now this would not only be our senior citizens, this would be the dependents and those who are disabled, this would be young people if they are dependents of someone eligible for Social Security.

    Now, Congressman Ferrand brought the program out on that idea of just for that group of people. But Congressman Ferrand was subscribing to this foot in the door philosophy, because he said “if we can only break through and get our foot inside the door, then we can expand the progam after that.”

    Walter Ruther said “It’s no secret that the United Automobile Workers is officially on record as backing a program of national health insurance.” And by national health insurance, he meant socialized medicine for every American. Well, let’s see what the socialists themselves have to say about it.

    They say: “Once the Ferrrand bill is passed, this nation will be provided with a mechanism for socialized medicince. Capable of indefinite expansion in every direction until it includes the entire population.’ Well, we can’t say we haven’t been warned.

    Now, Congressman Ferrand is no longer a congressman of the United States government. He has been replaced, not in his particular assignment, but in his backing of such a bill, by Congressman King of California. It is presented in the idea of a great emergency that millions of our senior citizens are unable to provide needed medical care. But this ignores the fact that in the last decade a hundred and twenty seven million of our citicizens in just ten years, have come under the protection of some form of privately owned medical or hospital insurance.

    Now the advocates of this bill, when you try to oppose it, challenge you on an emotional basis. They say “What would you do, throw these poor old people out to die with no medical attention?” That’s ridiculous and of course no one’s has advocated it. As a matter of fact, in the last session of Congress a bill was adopted known as the Kerr-Mills Bill. Now without even allowing this bill to be tried, to see if it works, they have introduced this King Bill which is really the Ferrand Bill.

    What is the Kerr-Mills Bill? It is a frank recognition of the medical need or problem of the senior citizens that I have mentioned. And it is provided from the federal government money to the states and the local communities that can be used at the discretion of the state to help those people who need it. Now what reason could the other people have for backing a bill which says “we insist on compulsory health insurance for senior citizens on the basis of age alone; regardless of whether they’re worth millions of dollars, whether they have an income, whether they’re protected by their own insurance, whether they have savings.”

    I think we can be excused for believing that as ex-c0ngressman Ferrand said, this was simply an excuse to bring about what they wanted all the time – socialized medicine.

    James Madison in 1788, speaking to the Virginia Convention said: “Since the general civilization of mankind, I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpations. ”They want to attach this bill to Social Security. And they say here is a great insurance program now instituted, now working.

    Let’s take a look at social security itself. Again, very few of us disagree with the original premise that there should be some form of saving that would keep destitution from following unemployment by reason of death, disability or old age. And to this end Social Security was adopted. But it was never intended to supplant private savings, private insurance, pension programs of unions and industries.

    Now in our country under our free enterprise system, we have seen medicine reach the greatest heights that it has in any country in the world. Today, the relationship between patient and doctor in this country is something to be envied any place. The privacy, the care that is given to a person, the right to chose a doctor, the right to go from one doctor to the other.

    But let’s also look from the other side, at the freedom the doctor loses. A doctor would be reluctant to say this. Well, like you, I am only a patient, so I can say it in his behalf. The doctor begins to lose freedoms; it’s like telling a lie, and one leads to another. First you decide that the doctor can have so many patients. They are equally divided among the various doctors by the government. But then the doctors aren’t equally divided geographically, so a doctor decides he wants to practice in one town and the government has to say to him you can’t live in that town, they already have enough doctors. You have to go someplace else. And from here it is only a short step to dictating where he will go.

    This is a freedom that I wonder whether any of us have the right to take from any human being.

    I know how I’d feel, if you my fellow citizens decided that to be an actor, I had to become a government employee and work in a national theater. Take it into your own occupation or that of your husband, all of us can see what happens – once you establish the precedent that the government can determine a man’s working place and his working methods, determine his employment. From here it is a short step to all the rest of socialism, to determining his pay and pretty soon your son won’t decide when he’s in school, where he will go or what they will do for a living. He will wait for the government to tell them where he will go to work and what he will do.

    In this country of ours, took place the greatest revolution that has ever taken place in world’s history. The only true revolution. Every other revolution simply exchanged one set of rulers for another. But here for the first time in all the thousands of years of man’s relation to man, a little group of the men, the founding fathers - for the first time – established the idea that you and I had within ourselves the God given right and ability to determine our own destiny.

    This freedom was built into our government with safeguards. We talk democracy today. And strangely we let democracy begin to assume the aspect of majority rule is all that is needed. Well, majority rule is a fine aspect of democracy, provided there are guarantees written in to our government concerning the rights of the individual and of the minorities.

    What can we do about this? Well, you and I can do a great deal. We can write to our congressmen and our senators. We can say right now that we want no further encroachment on these individual liberties and freedoms. And at the moment, the key issue is, we do not want socialized medicine.

    In Washington today, 40,000 letters, less than a hundred per congressman, are evidence of a trend in public thinking.

    Representative Halleck of Indiana has said, “When the American people want something from Congress, regardless of its political complexion, if they make their wants known, Congress does what the people want.”

    So write, and if your this man writes back to you and tells you that he too is for free enterprise, that we have these great services and so forth, that must be performed by government, don’t let him get away with it. Show that you have not been convinced. Write a letter right back and tell him that you believe in government economy and fiscal responsibility; that you know governments don’t tax to get the money the need; governments will always find a need for the money they get and that you demand the continuation of our traditional free enterprise system. You and I can do this. The only way we can do it is by writing to our congressmen even we believe that he is on our side to begin with. Write to strengthen his hand. Give him the ability to stand before his colleagues in Congress and say “I have heard from my constituents and this is what they want.”

    Write those letters now; call your friends and tell them to write them. If you don’t, this program I promise you will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow and behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country. Until, one day, as Normal Thomas said we will awake to find that we have socialism. And if you don’t do this and if I don’t do it, one of these days you and I are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our children’s children, what it once was like in America when men were free.”
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    i am not talking out my ass when temps are filling positions that normally would have been held by full time employees, the reason...not wanting to pay healthcare benefits. josh, if you follow business at all you know that healthcare benefits is something business has been trying to get out of for a long time...obamacare care gives business the excuse it needed. i work for a huge multinational, i know my insurance coverage is less every year but premiums and co-pays keep going up. my company would benefit in a big way if it were able to get out of healthcare benefits.

    a local news story here told of a grocery store owner [bob baesler]who had offered healthcare benefits to employees for over 40 years, and in an interview said he was going to stop healthcare benefits because obamacare was making it to expensive to continue to do so...i am not making this up, or taling out my ass, this is truth!!!
    A local news story is hardly evidence of anything except what occurred with that one particular business. This is a law that affects the entire nation so if you are going to make the claim "X" will happen across the nation it is a bit foolish to think so just because "x" happened to one person in one town. Give me national statistics if you want me to believe this is a phenomenon occurring at the alarming rate you suggest. If you cant, then I m sorry you are indeed talking out of your ass.
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  4. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    A local news story is hardly evidence of anything except what occurred with that one particular business. This is a law that affects the entire nation so if you are going to make the claim "X" will happen across the nation it is a bit foolish to think so just because "x" happened to one person in one town. Give me national statistics if you want me to believe this is a phenomenon occurring at the alarming rate you suggest. If you cant, then I m sorry you are indeed talking out of your ass.
    do some research my friend on the trend towards part time versus full time workers...
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  5. A handful of stories isnt indicative of a nation wide trend.

    So to be clear, you dont have these numbers correct? So then may I ask what are you basing your predictions off of? A few stories on the local news about a few local businesses diking over their employees. If so that is quite a leap. Let me ask if I saw a story on a few people who were sexually harassed by their boss should I assume this is a nation wide event thats happening all over in the majority of workplaces?

    Im not taking side here, just dont like the fear mongering discourse that paints this distopic future and is based on absolutely nothing but the convictions of a few who have this fear "the man is out to get them". What your doing is the equivalent to standing on a soap box in the middle of town and yelling the sky is falling just because you seen a shooting star.
    PESCIENCE.COM

    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    A handful of stories isnt indicative of a nation wide trend.

    So to be clear, you dont have these numbers correct? So then may I ask what are you basing your predictions off of? A few stories on the local news about a few local businesses diking over their employees. If so that is quite a leap. Let me ask if I saw a story on a few people who were sexually harassed by their boss should I assume this is a nation wide event thats happening all over in the majority of workplaces?

    Im not taking side here, just dont like the fear mongering discourse that paints this distopic future and is based on absolutely nothing but the convictions of a few who have this fear "the man is out to get them". What your doing is the equivalent to standing on a soap box in the middle of town and yelling the sky is falling just because you seen a shooting star.
    no actually what i am doing is presenting a theory...a theory based on my personal experiences and i will admit some conjecture.
    ...the theory that politicians are corrupt is a theory i can't claim as my own, it has been around as long as there have been politicians....the theory that business wants out of the healthcare benefits game is also a very common theory...the theory that obamacare will fail is most certainly not my original theory.....the trend towards business hiring part timers to avoid healthcare benefits is not a theory but proven fact, if i could post links i would, but it wouldn't take much for a clever youngster like yourself to find all the facts you need with very little effort.

    your less than amiable replies in this thread surprises me, i didn't expect that from you.
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  7. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    but it wouldn't take much for a clever youngster like yourself to find all the facts you need with very little effort...
    closest have I ever see to t going satirical on someone
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

    Brotato's bark brings shakes to the pups in the yard

  8. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    just dont like the fear mongering discourse that paints this distopic future and is based on absolutely nothing but the convictions of a few who have this fear "the man is out to get them"...
    "The man" is out to getting his, (or his ideologies) at the expense of "them"
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

    Brotato's bark brings shakes to the pups in the yard

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    "The man" is out to getting his, (or his ideologies) at the expense of "them"
    business today only looks out for stockholders and feels it has a responsibility to do whatever possible to increase profits...if employees get hurt in the process they consider it collateral damage...

    by adopting this ideology business has in effect truely made it a 'out to get them mentality'........the days when good/loyal employees could count on being treated fairly are long gone, when corporate gets told profits need to be higher, those good/loyal employees are throw under the bus and escorted of the premises. because cutting employees is 1st place they look when cutting costs.
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  10. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    obamacare is a well crafted plan drawn up by big business...health care benefits is something business has been whining about for years, with obamacare they have a way out. in less than 2 years i would be surprised if even 10% of americans have employer sponsored healthcare..

    it is my opinion that obamacare was designed to fail...there is no way the government can take on such an expansive and expensive task as sponsored healthcare, americans are too spoiled and pampered with the way medicine is done today and in my opinion would not tolerate the canadian/british form of socialized medicine.

    i believe that republicans and democrats are in this together, with each playing their role...once obamacare fails [and it will fail] the republicans can say i told you so...and the democrats can blame the republicans for it's failure, so there is a out for both parties...in the end the big winner is american business which is finally out of the healthcare game, something it has been trying to do for decades, imo.
    Hey bigt...havent been around. Dont you miss those days when you can go to the doc and if you had no money they would still treat you? Now the same people in the same position have even less money, since they by law buy insurance...and that crappy policy still have you paying a $100 deductible just for a visit.
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  11. Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    How can you?

    Your central premise is that obamacare will result in a massive drop in employer provided healthcare.. well

    " how can you be so sure your healthcare from your employer [WILL] be effected before it even begins?"
    According to this Forbes article, they site Bureau of Labor Statistics showing 6 full time jobs to 1 part time jobs in terms of hiring in 2012, and now in 2013 it totally reversed to 1 full time job to 4 part time jobs. Thats a very dramatic shift going in line with the timing of Obamacare.

    It's Fact, Not Anecdote, That ObamaCare Is Turning Us Into A Part-Time Nation
    Forbes
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/gracemar...t-time-nation/
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  12. Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Hey bigt...havent been around. Dont you miss those days when you can go to the doc and if you had no money they would still treat you? Now the same people in the same position have even less money, since they by law buy insurance...and that crappy policy still have you paying a $100 deductible just for a visit.
    it's getting even worse, they are closing the plant i work at the end of month...after over 20years at same place i will be unemployed and uninsured!!!

    cobra will be between $600-$700 a week for my wife and i, and unemployment is $400, lol.
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  13. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    it's getting even worse, they are closing the plant i work at the end of month...after over 20years at same place i will be unemployed and uninsured!!! cobra will be between $600-$700 a week for my wife and i, and unemployment is $400, lol.
    man that is terrible. I am sorry to hear that. But....buck up...the economy is growing. At least that's what Obama said.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    man that is terrible. I am sorry to hear that. But....buck up...the economy is growing. At least that's what Obama said.
    i have been planning for this for awhile now...i will be alright, better than many i work with who blow their pay checks and are in debt. the company tried to keep it secret, but word got out and they were forced to fess up....they are threatening to fire or suspend employees who are not keeping up production or promoting bad morale, needless to say it is not a happy place!!! being fired or suspended could effect unemployment and other benefits....
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  15. sorry for being off topic here but did anyone see the video of Obama helping the pregnant woman who was light headed? why the ..ck did the people cheer and clap after he finished helping her? it's beyond me!!! god i hate him with a passion!!

  16. Quote Originally Posted by fame126 View Post
    sorry for being off topic here but did anyone see the video of Obama helping the pregnant woman who was light headed? why the ..ck did the people cheer and clap after he finished helping her? it's beyond me!!! god i hate him with a passion!!
    obama is a love him or hate him kinda guy, doesn't seem to be much middle ground...
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  17. Quote Originally Posted by fame126 View Post
    sorry for being off topic here but did anyone see the video of Obama helping the pregnant woman who was light headed? why the ..ck did the people cheer and clap after he finished helping her? it's beyond me!!! god i hate him with a passion!!
    I am going to go out on a limb here - the reason they clapped is because he finally did something that was not at the expense of the middle class, or our individual personal freedom which has, to date, been afforded by the U.S. Constitution.

    Oh, BTW you might want to watch this, it is really revealing (not like jugs and stuff, I mean it another way):

  18. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    obama is a love him or hate him kinda guy, doesn't seem to be much middle ground...
    Boy isn't that the case - those who drink the Barry Soetoro Kool-Aid are a vocal lot. They fight for tolerance, which to them means if you fail to fully embrace the position they take, then they are entitled to claim you are a racist, homophobe, tea party member, hater of the insert old/poor/women/illegal aliens/etc., or any other pejorative term du' jour.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    it's getting even worse, they are closing the plant i work at the end of month...after over 20years at same place i will be unemployed and uninsured!!!

    cobra will be between $600-$700 a week for my wife and i, and unemployment is $400, lol.
    Sorry to hear that...

    Cant you just get insurance now? I thought nobody can be denied, and it should be way more affordable that cobra. Shouldnt cobra be phased out now that Obamacare is kicking in?
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  20. Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Sorry to hear that...

    Cant you just get insurance now? I thought nobody can be denied, and it should be way more affordable that cobra. Shouldnt cobra be phased out now that Obamacare is kicking in?
    lol....try signing up for obamacare, plus if i am remembering correctly it doesn't go into effect until 2014 if even then....my take is that obamacare is just a farce and will never happen, just to many variables and obstacles...like i said at the beginning of this thread, it is my opinion that obamacare was designed to fail. just a way out of healthcare benefits for business!!!
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  21. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    lol....try signing up for obamacare, plus if i am remembering correctly it doesn't go into effect until 2014 if even then....my take is that obamacare is just a farce and will never happen, just to many variables and obstacles...like i said at the beginning of this thread, it is my opinion that obamacare was designed to fail. just a way out of healthcare benefits for business!!!
    Im not going to sign up for BarrySoetorocare, lol...we are all a part of it by force, expect for those doctors who are turning away insurance customers back home and taking cash only...although those doctors will also be under Obamacare laws as customers.

    I dont think its exactly designed to fail...but more so a ponzi scheme by the the fascist goverment currently in charge.

    It's a tax on the poor. Its also a way to raise taxes on everyone without calling it a tax, although even the supreme court declared it a tax.

    Its also an expansion of fascist power over the people, with new Obamacare 16,000 IRS agents (and will grow) its more authority, control over choices and tracking/data-basing over all of us. Id like to add more but wanna keep this post short.

    So I agree with you that it will fail for us....but its a total success for them.
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  22. Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Its also an expansion of fascist power over the people, with new Obamacare 16,000 IRS agents (and will grow) its more authority, control over choices and tracking/data-basing over all of us.
    The eventuality goal to have so many for government payroll through various ingenious snooks and crannies that the Obama party always have the shoo-in
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

    Brotato's bark brings shakes to the pups in the yard

  23. Lol.....Obama now asking Americans to be a part of the club...."Team Obamacare" calling on all Americans to brainwash your family and neighbors to be on board with the agenda.



    If you sign up for the "club" you get a free bumper sticker, lol what a freak
    https://my.barackobama.com/page/s/jo...m-obamacare-v1
    This message was paid for by the Russians

  24. =Touey;4209849]The eventuality goal to have so many for government payroll through various ingenious snooks and crannies that the Obama party always have the shoo-in[/QUOTE]

    then if that is the goal, why didn't they just expand medicare to include everyone and eliminate the middleman-the insurance carriers? this would have made much more sense, been more practical and much less expensive....everyone could be under the same umbrella.
    after all everyone pays into medicare already!!!
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  25. They should name it "Team Kiss Your Financial Wellbeing Goodbye".

  26. I am having trouble understanding what you say sorry, are you say then in your scenario this would make for many more people on the government payroll?
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

    Brotato's bark brings shakes to the pups in the yard

  27. I think after going over I see what you say but I do not think Obama and that lot were thinking they could push that far though they I think will have very much liked
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

    Brotato's bark brings shakes to the pups in the yard

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    I am having trouble understanding what you say sorry, are you say then in your scenario this would make for many more people on the government payroll?
    the way obamacare is set up you get insurance thru a carrier like prudential....all of the carriers are not available in all states, and different rates are being charged from one state to another. this makes the potential for gouging/ corruption by the carriers alot more feasible.

    if they were serious about socializing medicine they should have used the system already in place; medicare. expanding medicare to include everyone based on income makes much more sense to me, afterall we already pay into medicare based on income so all the information is already in place.

    doing it the way they are doing it makes little sense to me...this is one of the reasons why i think obamacare was set up to fail.
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID

  29. I see, so it would also be much easier on American to not be bound to a state
    "To your wife you should kiss try today"-Touey

    Brotato's bark brings shakes to the pups in the yard

  30. Quote Originally Posted by Touey View Post
    I see, so it would also be much easier on American to not be bound to a state
    it would at least be fairer if everyone paid the same rate...the way it is now set up rates will vary from state to state. besides medicare is already deducted from paychecks by the irs at the federal level, so they already have that program in place....
    WELL DONE IS BETTER THAN WELL SAID
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