Election of 2012....Who ya got?

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    The problems of today are not the flaws of the constitution but its systematic removal as a whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    The problems of today are not the flaws of the constitution but its systematic removal as a whole.
    Dont agree entirely. I think your statement is an issue in part, however, it is sometimes not applicable to the modern world. Our founding "parents" could not have foreseen the issues of the 21st century, and did the best they could to assist is mediating them. However, foresight goes only so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Dont agree entirely. I think your statement is an issue in part, however, it is sometimes not applicable to the modern world. Our founding "parents" could not have foreseen the issues of the 21st century, and did the best they could to assist is mediating them. However, foresight goes only so far
    We can deal these issues without taking away peoples liberties and installing a complete and total police state of legalized spying (patriot act,) detaining of Americans without access to a lawyer or trial indefinitely (NDAA act), completely changing the governments structure of government with unelected officials (Super Committee), income tax, decreased sovreignty of the states with expansion of federal powers, going to wars without even consulting congress, the private Federal Reserve banking cartel and the elimination of the gold/silver backed currency, ok enough with the run-on ax your typing to a school teacher here, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    Dont agree entirely. I think your statement is an issue in part, however, it is sometimes not applicable to the modern world. Our founding "parents" could not have foreseen the issues of the 21st century, and did the best they could to assist is mediating them. However, foresight goes only so far
    Even given there are issues that they didn't foresee, their model was based on individual states attempting to fix those things, not an overreaching federal government. And when a state in attempting to fix those intruded on the rights (or created bias against products from) another state, that was the point at which the federal government was supposed to become involved.

    The larger the country has become, the more valid that point has become rather than the reverse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Even given there are issues that they didn't foresee, their model was based on individual states attempting to fix those things, not an overreaching federal government. And when a state in attempting to fix those intruded on the rights (or created bias against products from) another state, that was the point at which the federal government was supposed to become involved.

    The larger the country has become, the more valid that point has become rather than the reverse.
    Exactly which is what I have been trying to say for the past few days lol. I dont get why its so hard to understand...

    The problem with the constitution being outdated or up for modifications would never have happened had the federal government followed the structure layed out for them, which was simply to be a mediator between states and a defense against enemies of the states. Period. It all got complicated when socialist movements started occurring and the feds took away state's power thru a series of unforunate turn of events like 17th amendment, abusing the power under the ITC act, etc...
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    Except in the case of, Jan Brewer, an overachieving 2 year community college graduate turned governor, who's social agenda is sought after in the guise of enacting state "law", in my humble opinion, individuals like this need to be checked. A woman who would otherwise be tasked with ordering printer cartridges if she wasn't voted in as governor, requires broad supervision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Except in the case of, Jan Brewer, an overachieving 2 year community college graduate turned governor, who's social agenda is sought after in the guise of enacting state "law", in my humble opinion, individuals like this need to be checked. A woman who would otherwise be tasked with ordering printer cartridges if she wasn't voted in as governor, requires broad supervision.
    Again, just like with the president, the governor of a state doesn't pass any laws, just signs them....

    The state's own legislature and residents are the check. Because you happen to dislike a law doesn't mean that a majority of the state's residents dislike it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    We can deal these issues without taking away peoples liberties and installing a complete and total police state of legalized spying (patriot act,) detaining of Americans without access to a lawyer or trial indefinitely (NDAA act), completely changing the governments structure of government with unelected officials (Super Committee), income tax, decreased sovreignty of the states with expansion of federal powers, going to wars without even consulting congress, the private Federal Reserve banking cartel and the elimination of the gold/silver backed currency, ok enough with the run-on ax your typing to a school teacher here, lol.
    dont worry about the run ons

    alot of the things you mentioned have been done before....hell Lincoln wiped his a$$ with the constitution, yet no one bats an eye. Again, show me the police state that you live in....
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Again, just like with the president, the governor of a state doesn't pass any laws, just signs them....

    The state's own legislature and residents are the check. Because you happen to dislike a law doesn't mean that a majority of the state's residents dislike it.
    And residents don't have an immediate impact, once a law(s) is enacted, until the next election cycle, often the "check" comes much later and at a steep price. I understand how state government and federal government operate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Even given there are issues that they didn't foresee, their model was based on individual states attempting to fix those things, not an overreaching federal government. And when a state in attempting to fix those intruded on the rights (or created bias against products from) another state, that was the point at which the federal government was supposed to become involved.

    The larger the country has become, the more valid that point has become rather than the reverse.
    no doubt it was a states rights issue, and the Pres. for years have taken a greater hold than they should. This is not new or surprising. It has been going on since the earliest founding fathers sat in office. Hell, Jefferson took advantage as well.

    Bottom line for me E.....both you and Ax talk about these abuses, and yes there are many abuses, but none have led to to some great catastrophe or tinfoil hat laden event. My point is, these things have gone on for generations, and will continue to do so long after we are all gone. Eventually, long down the line, there will be some sort of rebellion....but nothing will happen for a while People are too complacent with life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    dont worry about the run ons

    alot of the things you mentioned have been done before....hell Lincoln wiped his a$$ with the constitution, yet no one bats an eye. Again, show me the police state that you live in....
    hmm lemee see, warrantless wiretapping, video cameras all over in public, flying drones with video cameras, attempting to get access to all emails and internet activity without warrant, ability to be considered a terrorist for receiving drugs in the mail (http://www.norwichbulletin.com/carou...#axzz1luuTEhFQ), no fly lists for US citizens, ability to detain someone indefinitely without charging them or giving access to a lawyer, etc. The list is pretty freakin long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    dont worry about the run ons

    alot of the things you mentioned have been done before....hell Lincoln wiped his a$$ with the constitution, yet no one bats an eye. Again, show me the police state that you live in....
    Ive been doing that in one of my other threads all year, lol but we are the most imprisoned country on the planet (officially at least) so we can start there. We just passed yet another police state bill in the senate yesterday to install 30,000 drones over America, and the police force is continuing to be federalized away from local/state. I can go on and on but thats my lifes work (not srs) in my other thread.

    I have to research Lincoln more so I cannot comment, but the amendment of 1865 is something I fully support in regards to abolishment of slavery, unfortunately slavery still exists just in different ways.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    no doubt it was a states rights issue, and the Pres. for years have taken a greater hold than they should. This is not new or surprising. It has been going on since the earliest founding fathers sat in office. Hell, Jefferson took advantage as well.

    Bottom line for me E.....both you and Ax talk about these abuses, and yes there are many abuses, but none have led to to some great catastrophe or tinfoil hat laden event. My point is, these things have gone on for generations, and will continue to do so long after we are all gone. Eventually, long down the line, there will be some sort of rebellion....but nothing will happen for a while People are too complacent with life.
    oh sure. but just like the socialist dude said, america will never accept a doctrine of socialism, but will quietly accept individual elements of it one at a time until all are in places. Similarly we'd never accept totalitarian rule but as our freedoms are eroded a tiny piece at a time and dependence on government continues to grow (up 8% this year) eventually we'll have a totalitarian regime and just not notice that we do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Ive been doing that in one of my other threads all year, lol but we are the most imprisoned country on the planet (officially at least) so we can start there. We just passed yet another police state bill in the senate yesterday to install 30,000 drones over America, and the police force is continuing to be federalized away from local/state. I can go on and on but thats my lifes work (not srs) in my other thread.

    I have to research Lincoln more so I cannot comment, but the amendment of 1865 is something I fully support in regards to abolishment of slavery, unfortunately slavery still exists just in different ways.
    yes....we have the most people in prison, that does not make a prison state to me. Would I like to reanalyze some laws (mainly drugs) yes, but the fools getting busted know the laws and if they dont, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

    I am not talking about the emancipation, which was only written after the South was kicking the Norths a$$. Lincoln needed something to galvanize the movement and pull southern soldiers home. Lincoln didnt give a rats butt about the slaves....there are countless speeches of his advocating sending them all to africa, or not freeing them as long as he could save the union.

    I was referring to him completely leveling habeas corpus
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    oh sure. but just like the socialist dude said, america will never accept a doctrine of socialism, but will quietly accept individual elements of it one at a time until all are in places. Similarly we'd never accept totalitarian rule but as our freedoms are eroded a tiny piece at a time and dependence on government continues to grow (up 8% this year) eventually we'll have a totalitarian regime and just not notice that we do.
    do you rally think this will happen? I for one do not
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1 View Post
    Ive been doing that in one of my other threads all year, lol but we are the most imprisoned country on the planet (officially at least) so we can start there. We just passed yet another police state bill in the senate yesterday to install 30,000 drones over America, and the police force is continuing to be federalized away from local/state. I can go on and on but thats my lifes work (not srs) in my other thread.

    I have to research Lincoln more so I cannot comment, but the amendment of 1865 is something I fully support in regards to abolishment of slavery, unfortunately slavery still exists just in different ways.
    Lol you're imprisoned? Dear god man....
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    yes....we have the most people in prison, that does not make a prison state to me. Would I like to reanalyze some laws (mainly drugs) yes, but the fools getting busted know the laws and if they dont, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

    I am not talking about the emancipation, which was only written after the South was kicking the Norths a$$. Lincoln needed something to galvanize the movement and pull southern soldiers home. Lincoln didnt give a rats butt about the slaves....there are countless speeches of his advocating sending them all to africa, or not freeing them as long as he could save the union.

    I was referring to him completely leveling habeas corpus
    yeah, even more comically, the confederates didn't care about slaves either. The issue was the removal of states rights more than slavery. they would probably have accepted a constitutional amendment giving slaves full rights if all the rest of what went along with it wasn't a part of what lincoln wanted.

    But those damn liberals running our education system rewrote it to suit themselves
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    hmm lemee see, warrantless wiretapping, video cameras all over in public, flying drones with video cameras, attempting to get access to all emails and internet activity without warrant, ability to be considered a terrorist for receiving drugs in the mail (http://www.norwichbulletin.com/carou...#axzz1luuTEhFQ), no fly lists for US citizens, ability to detain someone indefinitely without charging them or giving access to a lawyer, etc. The list is pretty freakin long.
    take a look at the abuses of the 1860's. again a long list....
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, even more comically, the confederates didn't care about slaves either. The issue was the removal of states rights more than slavery. they would probably have accepted a constitutional amendment giving slaves full rights if all the rest of what went along with it wasn't a part of what lincoln wanted.

    But those damn liberals running our education system rewrote it to suit themselves
    I think you are being a little overly optimistic. There was a strong sentiment in the south that was anti-slave and wanted to be left alone (as a states rights issue). The two issues are mutually dependent. It is totally visible through the response to reconstruction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    do you rally think this will happen? I for one do not
    well, as I said before I've noticed the difference in my own freedoms (be it even just slight) over the last 30 years. Its been in a constant trend in that direction, with the addition of the revolving door between government officials leaving for private industry positions they had jurisdiction over, etc. I'm not saying that outcome is likely to happen in my lifetime, but I'm pretty sure it will eventually. If you in general asked someone whether water could ever dig a hole a mile deep and 277 miles long they'd think you were crazy, but given enough time the grand canyon was created.

    Even something as stupid as portions of the health care bill. Now an employer can no longer choose to offer a cheap low priced catastrophic only coverage health insurance. There is freedom lost.

    The one in five Americans who now rely on federal assistance costs the government $2.5 billion annually, and the average recipient collects $32,748 in benefits, about $300 more than the country’s average disposable personal income. About 70 percent of the federal budget goes to individual assistance and nearly half of the population does not pay a dime in income taxes.
    The more dependent people are on the government for their day to day life and standard of living, the less likely they are to rise up even if things become more of a police state. You get that government dependency number to double and the government could get away with anything. Note that the rate of government dependency is up 23% since obama started. Not claiming that as fault, just mentioning it is up by that much in the last 3ish years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Lol you're imprisoned? Dear god man....
    Yes, I have pay tax on the fruits on my labor, so I spend 25% of my labor life as a slave to the government.

    Also my protections under the bill of rights no longer exist. As of New Years Eve I can be arrested, detained, with no right to lawyer or fair trial for an indefinite amount of time, that to me is a totalitarian police state.

    Ultimately my politics arent primarily of personal concern and I feel its my duty as a citizen to be politically involved in any way I can (not just posting on a board.) I cannot feel good about myself by not being involved with my country in one way or another, its a part of my way forcing myself to contribute that adds to my daily contentment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    I think you are being a little overly optimistic. There was a strong sentiment in the south that was anti-slave and wanted to be left alone (as a states rights issue). The two issues are mutually dependent. It is totally visible through the response to reconstruction.
    yeah, probably I am. still it wasn't solely the slavery issue, as the confederacy was willing to allow non-slave holding states to join.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    do you rally think this will happen? I for one do not
    Considering how far we've already transformed from a natural rights country to a socialist nation, yes. It's not something that happens all at once. Carl Marx got it right when he said socialism was the post-capitalism stage and pre-communist stage of political philosophy. He made us a target in the beginning and since has slowly transformed us, election by election, decade by decade, into Carl Marx society...
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, probably I am. still it wasn't solely the slavery issue, as the confederacy was willing to allow non-slave holding states to join.
    Ron Paul stated one that the Civil War shouldnt even have been fought. It would have been far, far more cost effective with far less suffering if the government would have just bought the slaves and just freed them. He used a model that they used in Britain (?? forgot exactly where or when) where they did in fact end slavery by buying and freeing them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ax1

    Yes, I have pay tax on the fruits on my labor, so I spend 25% of my labor life as a slave to the government.

    Also my protections under the bill of rights no longer exist. As of New Years Eve I can be arrested, detained, with no right to lawyer or fair trial for an indefinite amount of time, that to me is a totalitarian police state.

    Ultimately my politics arent primarily of personal concern and I feel its my duty as a citizen to be politically involved in any way I can (not just posting on a board.) I cannot feel good about myself by not being involved with my country in one way or another, its a part of my way forcing myself to contribute that adds to my daily contentment.
    you will also be paying for contraceptives
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Considering how far we've already transformed from a natural rights country to a socialist nation, yes. It's not something that happens all at once. Carl Marx got it right when he said socialism was the post-capitalism stage and pre-communist stage of political philosophy. He made us a target in the beginning and since has slowly transformed us, election by election, decade by decade, into Carl Marx society...
    Its really a wall street society, you really have to look into Marx's associations and financing, which came from wall street its ultimatly a propaganda piece to make a few at the top money.

    Im not against socialist ideas, I just dont trust a government that consistently lies over and over again to implement them. Then there is an issue that in order for socialism to work you have to forcefully take something from somebody else in order to give it to someone else which is not the idea of a free man, not necessarily fair at all.
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    Liberal Checklist

    1) Received a university level education.
    2) Never once received any form of entitlements.
    3) Self reliant as a person who immigrated to this country as a child, eventually went on to become a citizen and earn an education, with an area of expertise.
    4) Has not seen any of my freedoms taken away, or erode, be it in the form of new laws or a "policed" state.
    5) Believes everyone should have a right to quality health care.
    6) Believe that if you outsource labor you should not receive any type of tax benefit.
    7) If you invest most of your monies into foreign markets, then you should not receive the benefits of cap gains. (since you're not reinvesting in US markets)
    8) Believe higher education is required in order to govern a state and/or federally. In other words not two years at community college.
    9) Believes that if you lead by way of a "social agenda", example attempting to defund planned parenthood, then you should have limited power/influence.

    Checklist is much longer, but proudly and unabashedly sticking to it.
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    The deal with freedom and healthcare is this: we require you to have healthcare through various means because of one pre-existing thing.

    No matter if you have insurance or not, you WILL be treated in an emergency room. Who pays? The government. So the government says that as long as the government lacks the freedom to let you die, they are going to take away your freedom to suckle off of them for makeshift healthcare. Most people are in favor of treating anyone that is dying without checking for insurance, so the contrary evil is that the government wants to cover their ass for that cost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    9) Believes that if you lead by way of a "social agenda", example attempting to defund planned parenthood, then you should have limited power/influence.
    reality check - all politicians lead by way of a social agenda.
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    That's an oversimplified approach to healthcare, if you're a diabetic, sure you can walk into a hospital and get treated for a specific complication, but it doesn't take into account, the ongoing patient care and prescription costs that are associated with these types of conditions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    No matter if you have insurance or not, you WILL be treated in an emergency room. Who pays? The government.
    from what I recall, that isn't true. the hospital eats the expense and charges the rates to people who do pay to make up for the losses. hence the $4 asprin
    This space for rent

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    reality check - all politicians lead by way of a social agenda.
    Difference is some are flexible with respect to their positions, while others are nothing more than mere ideologues.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpee View Post
    you will also be paying for contraceptives
    Oh great...reminds me I need to get onto my wifes insurance plan from her job soon, or the newly created IRS expansion (16,000 fully armed and combat trained) will be knocking on my door.

    Just another way of being in a prison state forced to buy products.

    Quote Originally Posted by D3Baseball View Post
    The deal with freedom and healthcare is this: we require you to have healthcare through various means because of one pre-existing thing.

    No matter if you have insurance or not, you WILL be treated in an emergency room. Who pays? The government. So the government says that as long as the government lacks the freedom to let you die, they are going to take away your freedom to suckle off of them for makeshift healthcare. Most people are in favor of treating anyone that is dying without checking for insurance, so the contrary evil is that the government wants to cover their ass for that cost.
    The whole system is messed up, its to complicated for a simple post for sure. There used to be a day where you can go to certain doctors or a hospital for no money or just pay a small amount and they didnt turn you down. Of course, if you have cancer they wouldnt be able to do anything about it financially, but they never have in the emergency room either (did they?.)

    Government is progressively involved with medicine we will all see costs go up, just like it has with education.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    from what I recall, that isn't true. the hospital eats the expense and charges the rates to people who do pay to make up for the losses. hence the $4 asprin
    Some hospitals have been caught simply getting patients in a taxi and having them sent to another hospital even if it seems to be an emergency. They will just be dropped off on the ground.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Difference is some are flexible with respect to their positions, while others are nothing more than mere ideologues.
    Really? Oh you mean the ones you support you feel that way about. I don't feel that way even about the ones I support. I haven't seen any politicians who aren't ideologues probably ever, at the very least not for the last few decades.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Really? Oh you mean the ones you support you feel that way about. I don't feel that way even about the ones I support. I haven't seen any politicians who aren't ideologues probably ever, at the very least not for the last few decades.
    Cantor, Boehner, Brewer, Gingrich (even worse) just to name a few are all prominent ideologues. They have a position and their sticking to it, no matter how outdated or antiquated those positions may be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23

    Cantor, Boehner, Brewer, Gingrich (even worse) just to name a few are all prominent ideologues. They have a position and their sticking to it, no matter how outdated or antiquated those positions may be.
    Obama, Pelosie, Reid and Waxman are all just as much ideologues, but since you agree with their ideology, you don't see it.
    This space for rent

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    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Liberal Checklist

    1) Received a university level education.
    2) Never once received any form of entitlements.
    3) Self reliant as a person who immigrated to this country as a child, eventually went on to become a citizen and earn an education, with an area of expertise.
    4) Has not seen any of my freedoms taken away, or erode, be it in the form of new laws or a "policed" state.
    5) Believes everyone should have a right to quality health care.
    6) Believe that if you outsource labor you should not receive any type of tax benefit.
    7) If you invest most of your monies into foreign markets, then you should not receive the benefits of cap gains. (since you're not reinvesting in US markets)
    8) Believe higher education is required in order to govern a state and/or federally. In other words not two years at community college.
    9) Believes that if you lead by way of a "social agenda", example attempting to defund planned parenthood, then you should have limited power/influence.

    Checklist is much longer, but proudly and unabashedly sticking to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by southpaw23 View Post
    Cantor, Boehner, Brewer, Gingrich (even worse) just to name a few are all prominent ideologues. They have a position and their sticking to it, no matter how outdated or antiquated those positions may be.
    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Obama, Pelosie, Reid and Waxman are all just as much ideologues, but since you agree with their ideology, you don't see it.
    anyone that actually believes this is a "party" issue is deluding themselves.
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    The only ideology I see in >90% majority of these politicians is corporitism.

    There is no difference between Obama, Boehner, Pelosie, or Gingrich.

    Welcome to the land of the Republicrats where we create our own competition to monopolize control and give the illusion of choice.
    나는 2000년 10월 매들린 올브라이트 전 미 국무장관 매들린 사랑, 그 중 한 뜨거운 젠장!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AE14 View Post
    anyone that actually believes this is a "party" issue is deluding themselves.
    thats why I said I don't recall ever seeing one who wasn't an ideologue
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