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    Do you know this guy?


    Remember how the media called him an idiot and screamed about all his failures incessantly? He is looking awfully good right now.

    And Obama continues to get a pass from the media no matter what he does!



    "Socialism only works

    In two places:

    Heaven where they don't

    Need it and hell where they already have it."

    -Ronald Reagan


    'Here's my strategy on

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    We win, they lose.'

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    'The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.'

    -Ronald Reagan



    'Of the four wars in my lifetime, none came about because the U.S. Was too strong.

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    The U.S. Congress..

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    'The nearest thing to eternal

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    'It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession.

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    - Ronald Reagan



    'Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases:

    If it moves, tax it.

    If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving,

    Subsidize it'

    - Ronald Reagan



    'Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed,

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    - Ronald Reagan



    'No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is as formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.'

    - Ronald Reagan


    'If we ever forget that we're one nation under GOD, then we will be a nation gone under.'

    -Ronald Reagan
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    awesome post, reps for sure
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    Oh god.
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    Reagan definitely had some great quotes. Anyone else notice that with all this debt ceiling debate the pundits are dragging out the Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times mark out at every opportunity? Reagan's conservative legacy certainly is filled with actions that current conservatives might despise.
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    Reagan was nothing more than a mindless puppet. His son, Ron, thankfully didn't drink the kool-aid like his father and the majority of Americans. I don't agree with everything he says but respect the fact that despite where he came from, he has learned to think for himself.

    When will people realize that it is fascism (or at least many aspects of it) that is plagueing our nation and not socialism. If you want to be ignorant and just automatically associate socialism with marxism, the goal would be a self-governing people, not a certralized government and would have a stateless, classless society. THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THIS IS HAPPENING and it is counter productive to society as a whole to continue to spread misinformation. It has nothing to do with political party and to even think that it does plays into the hidden hand. The more infighting that continues, the more we allow ourselves to be screwed. Take 'off-grid' living and 'sustainable living'. It's essentially the same thing with one big difference, the term 'off-grid' is more associated with conservatives and nut jobs and 'sustainable living' is associated with lefties and enviromentalists. (Note not hippies. This would imply, an unrelated, belief of 'peace and love' which has nothing to do with the topic at hand and would be an incorrect classification.) There would be an overall reduction in government dependance if more people would embrace/adopt sustainable living practices, but they won't simply because of the label, and some people just aren't happy unless they have something to bitch about. They turn to the governemnt to say "Where are the jobs?" yet say government is too big. This is illogical and hypocritical and a symptom of laziness and stupidity.


    I sound like a broken record but I bring up Marinol again. Synthetic THC, Schedule III. Marijuana, natural THC, Schedule I. For reference, Cocaine is Schedule II. Big pharma is one of the reasons marijuana is illegal. A blatent monopoly. And if you're thinking, so what I don't like pot it should be illegal. You fail to see the underlying concept, government hypocricy aka the hidden hand. Members of the forum are up in arms about the FDA possibly banning all supplements, well if you're ok with situation surrounding marijuana, YOU'VE LOST THE RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. You've already allowed the government to do what it wants without regard for the people, you've made your bed, sleep in it. That is the reason Americans have allowed themselves to be herded like sheep, instead of making decsions based on sound logic and the good of ALL, we (I certainly don't include myself though) would rather push our own special interests and make decisions based on our chosen faith. This is again a HUGE problem. Religion requires no logic, no proof, and discourages questioning authority. How do you know if what you're doing is right? If you need someone/soemthing else to tell you, that speaks volumes about a person. A just act requires no justification.

    Other things to think about as far as the job front goes, is oil. But not in the way you typically hear it talked about. Since the discovery of oil, the world population has quadrupled. We can go farther, quicker, faster. Think about that. Each town now only a few grocery stores, or other shops due to increased travel capacity of it's citizens, or at least those who can afford cars. There just simply isn't a need for more and because of that, there are fewer places to seek employment.


    "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."- 1 Timothy 6:10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knotch View Post
    When will people realize that it is fascism (or at least many aspects of it) that is plagueing our nation and not socialism. If you want to be ignorant and just automatically associate socialism with marxism, the goal would be a self-governing people, not a certralized government and would have a stateless, classless society.
    Going to any non-merit, non-capitalist system is all the same. Label it what you will, its not what our constitution allows. The federal government was created to provide 2 services - protecting our border which they fail miserably to do (our illegal immigration problem) and resolve conflicts between states. Politicians continue to further and further use the "intrastate commerce" clause to justify any crazy ass idea they have, and the progressive liberal judges they have put in place say its ok to use the constitution like toilet paper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Going to any non-merit, non-capitalist system is all the same. Label it what you will, its not what our constitution allows. The federal government was created to provide 2 services - protecting our border which they fail miserably to do (our illegal immigration problem) and resolve conflicts between states. Politicians continue to further and further use the "intrastate commerce" clause to justify any crazy ass idea they have, and the progressive liberal judges they have put in place say its ok to use the constitution like toilet paper.
    I think you know what I said, but you don't understand what I meant. You've taken 2 lines from a fairly large statement out of context and tried to impose a meaning/ belief to it that you think you have a valid counter point to. If you want to have a discussion about my previous post that's fine but I'm not going to go out of the context in which it was written.

    Edit: When I was younger I used to think that we needed to do any with government as it is/was, but now I've realized any form of government WILL work if those in power have the interest of the people in mind and purity in their hearts. To make sure it I'm not being interpreted as being aggressive, http://youtu.be/UUhc1hf63p8
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    you guys know some $hit!
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    he gets a pass because he came into office during a mess.
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    I think that if the "founding fathers" came back, most people in government would be hung for treason. "Progressives" are trying to change what this government represented when it was formed using lawyers to pick apart the words of the constitution and the true meaning of those words are being lost. Want to know what those words meant? Look at the laws in 1776 vs. what we have today.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    he gets a pass because he came into office during a mess.
    Lol what a joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    he gets a pass because he came into office during a mess.
    I hope you meant Reagan, since thats who the OP was quoting. If you meant Obama, well, he's not even the subject. Yes, Obama walked into a mess, but has only made it worse because the only experience he had as a leader, was his campaign. I can't blame the poor guy. He just wasn't an experienced leader. Neither was Reagan but he had life experience and knew how to handle money.
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    Wait Wut?

    Reagan's trickle down economics is what put this country on the original downhill slide...
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    Quote Originally Posted by StangBanger
    Wait Wut?

    Reagan's trickle down economics is what put this country on the original downhill slide...
    No, FDR and "the new deal" was
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    No, FDR and "the new deal" was
    this was quite a deal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by StangBanger View Post
    Wait Wut?

    Reagan's trickle down economics is what put this country on the original downhill slide...
    The size of government certainly exploded during Reagan's era and he raised taxes/the dreaded debt ceiling. It's strange how the conservative champion that so many "conservatives" admire did things that people who say they are conservative now wouldn't ever support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    The size of government certainly exploded during Reagan's era and he raised taxes/the dreaded debt ceiling. It's strange how the conservative champion that so many "conservatives" admire did things that people who say they are conservative now wouldn't ever support.
    And the national debt was less than half the gdp, the gdp was growing, and there were signs that a balanced budget was possible.

    Contrast with today, the national debt is about to pass the gdp, the best budget deal passable still has the debt reaching 2x gdp in 10 years, and the gdp growth rate is below inflation, and almost insignificant.

    So quite a different environment, which makes supporting or not supporting something quite different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    And the national debt was less than half the gdp, the gdp was growing, and there were signs that a balanced budget was possible.

    Contrast with today, the national debt is about to pass the gdp, the best budget deal passable still has the debt reaching 2x gdp in 10 years, and the gdp growth rate is below inflation, and almost insignificant.

    So quite a different environment, which makes supporting or not supporting something quite different.
    Actually the environment wasn't that different. When he came into office we were in the midst of a big recession, a national debt fight, and a divide over taxes (sound familar). He proceeded to hike up taxes at this point. Many of the "moves" Reagan made would probably not be supported by some of those on the right today, but obviously the political climate is much different now.

    Ronald Reagan certainly wouldn't have signed the no tax pledge. Of course I'm not advocating hiking up taxes, but I do find it odd at times how someone the right parades as such a hero did many things that would make the right today puke.
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    The environment was quite different then, I lived through it :-) inflation was 13% then, unemployment was 7%, there had been no huge housing crash, and the national debt was less than half the gdp. Quite different
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    And really it's the hypocrisy of the right that pisses me off more than anything. I'm not for the big government policies of Democrats, but at least they aren't hiding from it. You have Republicans talking about Reagan all the time as some saint. Then they say we can't raise the debt ceiling? WTF, Reagan did it 11 times. They praise some Reagan quote (the man was a quote genius!), worship him and then say "I signed a no tax pledge." WTF, Reagan hiked taxes.

    What pisses me off about Republicans is they say "oh let us run things, we believe in small government, these liberals want a nanny state." You put them in and the next thing you know we are fighting wars, cutting taxes, and sending people stimulus checks in the mail. Yeah, let's get rid of taxes and spend like crazy, that will end well. In the meantime let's worry about gay people fighting in the military or gay people getting married. That sounds like a good thing for my government to get involved in.

    The hypocrisy is what makes me mad. I have a lot more respect for a politician who is big government and doesn't back down from it than one who claims to be little government and then gets in office and is anything but.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The environment was quite different then, I lived through it :-) inflation was 13% then, unemployment was 7%, there had been no huge housing crash, and the national debt was less than half the gdp. Quite different
    Inflation hasn't dropped since then though, and we were in a recession. How many times have you heard these right wing people say "you don't raise taxes in a recession?" The conservative king certainly did! Again it's the hypocrisy that I don't like.
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    Inflation hasn't dropped since then ? It hasn't been over half that since Reagan's second term.

    Conveniently you forget in saying that Reagan raised taxes that it was after passing some of the largest tax cuts in history, and the amount he later raised them did not wipe out the cuts. The top tier income tax rate went from 70% to 28% which is an enormous difference. So some tax hikes were necessary after that to get income right ? Big whoop, it was still lower than when he took office.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Inflation hasn't dropped since then ? It hasn't been over half that since Reagan's second term.

    Conveniently you forget in saying that Reagan raised taxes that it was after passing some of the largest tax cuts in history, and the amount he later raised them did not wipe out the cuts. The top tier income tax rate went from 70% to 28% which is an enormous difference. So some tax hikes were necessary after that to get income right ? Big whoop, it was still lower than when he took office.
    You're quick to defend the conservative champ and missing the larger picture of what I'm saying. I wasn't trying to get in a "Is Ronald Reagan" great type debate (though I certainly think he's about as overrated as any President ever).

    When Reagan came into office he cut taxes big time, in fact that's the reason he raised taxes. He cut taxes big time, couldn't cut spending and the debt exploded. He proceeded to raise taxes then. He realized a revenue increase was necessary because we won't cut gov't spending to a level that does anything.

    It doesn't change the fact that he raised taxes many times anymore than it changes the fact he raised the debt ceiling many times and exploded the size of the federal gov't. In fairness, so has everyone since him. It's just ironic to me that all these conservatives hail him in one breath and then say we can't raise taxes ever or raise the debt ceiling. It's a little disingenuous at best. Republicans love to ignore the inconvenient truths of his administration is all I'm saying, and the hypocrisy of the right is pretty undeniable.
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    I still fail to see the hypocrisy when the financial situation is wildly different. Interest rates on a mortgage are 4% today, they were as high as 18% then. Our government right now is in the following scenario

    "If the US Government was a family, they would be making $58,000 a year, they spend $75,000 a year, & are $327,000 in credit card debt. They are currently proposing BIG spending cuts to reduce their spending to $72,000 a year. These are the actual proportions of the federal budget & debt, reduced to a level that we can understand." -Dave Ramsey

    That's not where we were in 1980
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    The environment is very different.

    We have been in 2 conflicts since 2001/2003 that have created a military budget that is huge.

    There are a lot more countries out there that are powerful and its not just Russia that we are worried about.

    Our world reach is different.

    The recession wasn't close to what we have experienced recently.

    The list goes on...

    The world climate also affects our politics, not just the internal workings.

    I can't comment on our commander in chief because I serve ultimately under that position, and respect it.
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    As another perspective piece, the highest deficit for Reagan was just over 200 billion, with tax revenue of 700 billion, with forecasts of gdp growth . In contrast, the obama deficit is over 1.5 trillion on 2.5 in revenue. A deficit of less than 30% of revenue vs a deficit of more than 60%. Its not from lower tax revenue its from continued (since FDR) often unconstitutional increase in size of government
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    great discussion here fellas.
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    All you guys are really doing is skirting the question. Yes the debt is much higher now than it was in 1980. Why is it much higher? Partially because Reagan, Bush, and Bush 2 exploded the debt! (Don't get me started on the Clinton fake surpluses) Saying the situation is different and pointing out things like the debt is much higher isn't helping much. It's still PURE hypocrisy to say we can't raise the debt ceiling in one breath and praise the man who raised it 11 times in another breath. It's PURE hypocrisy to say you can't raise taxes in a recession in one breath and praise the man who did JUST that in another breath. Hell of course the debt is much higher now...we had three Republican presidents who shot the damn debt up

    My point all along has been that Reagan did things that people on the right are saying Obama CAN'T do AND exploded the size of the federal government. Both of these points are undoubtedly true. If you want to make the argument that politicians are hypocritical by nature go for it. I won't argue. If you don't focus on the fact that Reagan repeatedly did things that the right says Obama shouldn't do all while praising Reagan then you're not really addressing what I'm talking about.

    Granted I haven't liked any President lately because they have all exploded the size of the government and stripped us of our civil liberties. It just blows my mind sometimes the hypocrisy of the Republican party. They repeatedly say one thing and do another.
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    You are nuts on that. Saying I can't raise the debt that is now more than 6 times my annual income is completely different from an economic perspective than raising your debt when it's 2 years income. There's no hypocrisy, from an accounting or economic perspective its far different.
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    And "raising" taxes while still keeping them lower than when he took office is about as real as Congress's "cuts" against future planned increases.
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    solid back and forth here.I still say make a few things legal and tax them to help out the economy.if they drag down the work force due to making them legal then scrap the idea and make them illegal again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You are nuts on that. Saying I can't raise the debt that is now more than 6 times my annual income is completely different from an economic perspective than raising your debt when it's 2 years income. There's no hypocrisy, from an accounting or economic perspective its far different.
    What made 6 times the magic mark? Again, Republicans had no problem raising it under Bush 2 when it was higher than 2 years income. Now magically that Obama is in office it's all the sudden too much? They didn't have a problem raising it while Bush was cutting taxes, fighting multiple wars, and sending the American people checks in the mail.

    Republicans wouldn't have had any problem raising it the President had an R by his name either. Again this is just apologizing and moving the goalposts. American citizens were greatly arguing the size of our national debt in the early 1900's. So now magically it's too big? This all goes back to the 2 party system argument and the absurd notion that a Republican in office during these last three years would have acted any different. They would have kept the wars and they would have had a stimulus package and bailed out the auto companies.

    Literally the same people who complain about the growing size of the federal government now are the same people who supported people who did the same thing. Partisan politics at its finest. It's a big deal when "that guy" does it, not a big deal when we do it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    And "raising" taxes while still keeping them lower than when he took office is about as real as Congress's "cuts" against future planned increases.
    ? Rates are much lower now than they were when Reagan was in office.

    Anyways, I told myself I was done arguing politics on here, it just gets me worked up

    Have a good one people.
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    No they aren't, the rates are higher noe
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    The top tier then was 28%, today its 35%
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    The top tier then was 28%, today its 35%
    Depends on how you want to look at it. For 7 years of the Reagan presidency the tax rate was higher. During all of Reagan's presidency the tax burden was higher as well according to the tax foundation's way of calculating tax burden.

    Taxes on the whole are lower today. Unless you cherrypick one year of Reagan's presidency out of 8.

    Anyways, I'm outta this before I lose my mind. I just don't understand how the right can love Reagan and ignore some of the genuine facts about him. The size of the federal government and the deficit went way up during his tenure. Sure we can make all sorts of excuses for why and do the usual "it wasn't that bad then as it is now" and cherrypick all the stats we want, but it doesn't change the fact in the least bit that:

    1. Reagan raised taxes many times during his tenure AND in a recession (something Republicans say you can't do in a recession AND many have signed a no tax increases pledge).

    2. Reagan raised the debt ceiling many times during his tenure.

    3. The national debt and overall size of government increased during his tenure.

    These are undeniable facts. They can't be changed as they DID happen.
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    On the deficit / debt issue, s&p has downgraded us debt, and the other bureaus have issued warnings due to the size of the deficit and debt, quite different than in Reagan's time. The debt isn't all Obama's fault, but it has gotten too high and needs to change
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    On the deficit / debt issue, s&p has downgraded us debt, and the other bureaus have issued warnings due to the size of the deficit and debt, quite different than in Reagan's time. The debt isn't all Obama's fault, but it has gotten too high and needs to change
    Perhaps, but let's not forget Reagan's own words:

    Reagan warned that without a higher debt ceiling, the country could be forced to default for the first time in its history.

    (1983) Reagan wrote: “The full consequences of a default – or even the serious prospect of default – by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and the value of the dollar.”

    (1987) “Congress consistently brings the government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility. This brinksmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the Federal deficit would soar.”

    The American public and politicians have been arguing and fearful of the size of the national debt since its inception.

    Out for real this time, good discussion fellas!
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    Quote Originally Posted by seccsi

    Perhaps, but let's not forget Reagan's own words:

    Reagan warned that without a higher debt ceiling, the country could be forced to default for the first time in its history.

    (1983) Reagan wrote: "The full consequences of a default - or even the serious prospect of default - by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and the value of the dollar."

    (1987) "Congress consistently brings the government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility. This brinksmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the Federal deficit would soar."

    The American public and politicians have been arguing and fearful of the size of the national debt since its inception.

    Out for real this time, good discussion fellas!
    That all is true, however again at that time the total load of the debt and interest was far lower as a percentage of government income, and those same dire consequences are happening anyway as our total debt load is too high today. In his time, raising the debt ceiling didn't still result in a credit downgrade as the current rise in debt ceiling did.
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    In debt and deficit alone, the difference then vs now is then, a person earning $50,000 a year living on spending $62000 a year and having $109,000 in debt vs that same $50,000 a year income spending more than $75,000 a year, and having $350,000 in debt.

    You can see as an individual perspective why its so different today. But definitely there should have been the sustained push to make the fake Clinton surplus into a real one, and bush sucked for passing Medicare part d, and plenty of his other spending. Still I find what he or Reagan chose to spend on more than what Obama has chose to spend on.
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