The only people worse than democrats

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    The only people worse than democrats


    are journalists...

    Quote Originally Posted by LIZ SIDOTI, Associated Press Writer
    An Obama loss — or McCain comeback — would be a crushing disappointment for Democrats in a year tailor-made for the party. It would suggest McCain's experience trumped Obama's clarion call for change, and raise troubling questions about white Americans' willingness to vote for a black man.

    Blacks, in particular, might be furious and deeply suspicious of an almost sure thing that slipped away.
    Why would it raise troubling questions about white american's willingness to vote for a black man? What does that have to do with it? we are a conservate of center nation, and Obama is the most liberal politician every to run for president. It will just mean that the majority of undecideds voted Mccain. Obama's "almost sure thing" is less than a 5% margin in most of the battleground states, and its based on statistical models (in terms of % of voters of each type) that are new and different and leaning 4% more democrat than 2004. Its quite possible the assumptions of the polling were bad as all the journalistic groups other than fox seem to be trying as hard as they can to suck up to obama
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    funny you say we are a conservative nation with more democrats registered han republicans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    funny you say we are a conservative nation with more democrats registered han republicans.
    Funny that ficticious ACORN registrations dont count in my book Are the democrats over 50%? No, and many democrats look at themselves as conservative but find the republicans go too far with the religious nuts. Overall polling irrespective of party finds that a reasonable majority of people (I think it was around 56%, I can look for it) view themselves as conservative.
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    I would love to see the polling for this, where your numbres are verified. Keep in mind that people might see themselves as conservative on issues and not overall. However, please source away (and of course we know that foxnews is as reliable as msnbc)
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    You two are funny. There's about 40 million republicans, 40 million democrats, 10 million independents and 210 million too stupid to care
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Funny that ficticious ACORN registrations dont count in my book Are the democrats over 50%? No, and many democrats look at themselves as conservative but find the republicans go too far with the religious nuts. Overall polling irrespective of party finds that a reasonable majority of people (I think it was around 56%, I can look for it) view themselves as conservative.
    Fictitious registrations DON'T count, ACORN or not. And a bogus registration form in NO WAY translates to a fraudulent vote - as you would know if you did any actual research.

    It will be fascinating to see how it will all play out: "conservatives" in this country have lost touch with any meaningful conservative values & ideas , and have drifted so far to the right-hand extreme that they no longer know where the middle is (feel free to include yourself in that group).

    Obama is nowhere near as leftward as you guys keep saying he is - and the fact that you keep saying he is just illustrates how badly your bearings have drifted
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    are journalists...



    Why would it raise troubling questions about white american's willingness to vote for a black man? What does that have to do with it? we are a conservate of center nation, and Obama is the most liberal politician every to run for president. It will just mean that the majority of undecideds voted Mccain. Obama's "almost sure thing" is less than a 5% margin in most of the battleground states, and its based on statistical models (in terms of % of voters of each type) that are new and different and leaning 4% more democrat than 2004. Its quite possible the assumptions of the polling were bad as all the journalistic groups other than fox seem to be trying as hard as they can to suck up to obama
    because we all know that fox 'just keeps it real', eh?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    Obama is nowhere near as leftward as you guys keep saying he is - and the fact that you keep saying he is just illustrates how badly your bearings have drifted
    I keep trying to reiterate this! Obama would still be farther 'to the right' than the Conservative Party of Canada! When we use these terms like liberal, conservative and so forth, we have to keep in mind the specific socio-historical and socio-political context of the words at the time!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    Fictitious registrations DON'T count, ACORN or not. And a bogus registration form in NO WAY translates to a fraudulent vote - as you would know if you did any actual research.

    It will be fascinating to see how it will all play out: "conservatives" in this country have lost touch with any meaningful conservative values & ideas , and have drifted so far to the right-hand extreme that they no longer know where the middle is (feel free to include yourself in that group).

    Obama is nowhere near as leftward as you guys keep saying he is - and the fact that you keep saying he is just illustrates how badly your bearings have drifted
    Liberals in this country have lost touch as well and have drifted so far to the left that they as well no longer know where the middle is (and feel free to include yourself in that group). Obama is so far leftward it isn't even funny and his own words as recorded say that, its nothing that needs interpretations. Stating that the Warren court wasn't radical enough, and that the Supreme Court should be biased based on the particular person asking rather than the law is more than enough to prove he's not centrist at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    because we all know that fox 'just keeps it real', eh?
    Far more real than MSNBC, ABC, CBS, etc. Its funny that the liberals can use a single example of a right leaning media outlet as if it somehow counterbalances the fact that all other media outlets are leaning left. And frankly I despise their journalists as much as they are as much entertainment and headline oriented as the rest.
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    This is hilarious stuff.



    It's like watching these guys argue over who is wearing a better shirt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Obama is the most liberal politician every to run for president.
    He is really a Federalist, not a liberal. Your just using liberal as a derogatory term, not a real description of who/what Obama really is. There are no liberal politicians, that would be a contradiction in terms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Liberals in this country have lost touch as well and have drifted so far to the left that they as well no longer know where the middle is (and feel free to include yourself in that group). Obama is so far leftward it isn't even funny and his own words as recorded say that, its nothing that needs interpretations. Stating that the Warren court wasn't radical enough, and that the Supreme Court should be biased based on the particular person asking rather than the law is more than enough to prove he's not centrist at all.
    I'm a true libertarian centrist...so of course you would think me an extreme-left liberal. The extreme-left is truly *way* out there - but they're not even taking part in this conversation...you would know that if you weren't yourself so far to the right that you think the middle is 'in fact' the left extreme.

    I think think the fact that you uncritically accept admitted lies & fragmentary bits of old conversation, taken out of context and misrepresented as 'a true picture of Obama's politics', demonstrates more than adequately that you couldn't find the political middle in a brightly lit room with both hands and a compass.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Far more real than MSNBC, ABC, CBS, etc. Its funny that the liberals can use a single example of a right leaning media outlet as if it somehow counterbalances the fact that all other media outlets are leaning left.
    Once again, the fact that you think "all other media outlets are leaning left" demonstrates 2 things: you can't tell propaganda from information, and you're incapable of perceiving your own rightward tilt.

    Or as Stephen Colbert put it so trenchantly, "reality has a well-known liberal bias!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    I'm a true libertarian centrist...so of course you would think me an extreme-left liberal. The extreme-left is truly *way* out there - but they're not even taking part in this conversation...you would know that if you weren't yourself so far to the right that you think the middle is 'in fact' the left extreme.

    I think think the fact that you uncritically accept admitted lies & fragmentary bits of old conversation, taken out of context and misrepresented as 'a true picture of Obama's politics', demonstrates more than adequately that you couldn't find the political middle in a brightly lit room with both hands and a compass.
    It must be wonderful for you to call yourself centrist by merely painting other people further away from you. Good show!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    ....you can't tell propaganda from information...

    Do you honestly expect many people to distinguish evidence from data?

    The current US legal system would be screwed if lawyers weren't allowed to pass one off as another and jurors were able to tell the difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmorpheuss View Post
    Do you honestly expect many people to distinguish evidence from data?

    The current US legal system would be screwed if lawyers weren't allowed to pass one off as another and jurors were able to tell the difference.
    haha, honestly, they can, as I've set many jury duties ...

    Does not matter if you can tell the difference or not. Especially with the example you just gave, dude, I can tell you horror stories of what goes on behind those doors ... People are not as "blind" as some would paint it ... It's a difference between drinking your own water because you can vs being led to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    ... People are not as "blind" as some would paint it ...
    Actually, they really are. The assumption of most untrained individuals is that the human memory is like a Polaroid picture when in reality it's closer to a Van Gogh painting.

    Juries in general like to think inconsistencies are a sign of untruthfulness when in reality the lack of inconsistency over time is more often the first sign of a well rehearsed lie.

    I have many friends in the legal system that fight on both sides to capitalize on this "blindness" you speak of when their case is long on theory and short on fact, as many cases tend to be.

    What would you constitute as evidence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post

    Does not matter if you can tell the difference or not.
    ?

    Okay.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    I'm a true libertarian centrist...so of course you would think me an extreme-left liberal. The extreme-left is truly *way* out there - but they're not even taking part in this conversation...you would know that if you weren't yourself so far to the right that you think the middle is 'in fact' the left extreme.

    I think think the fact that you uncritically accept admitted lies & fragmentary bits of old conversation, taken out of context and misrepresented as 'a true picture of Obama's politics', demonstrates more than adequately that you couldn't find the political middle in a brightly lit room with both hands and a compass.
    Very eloquently put. I just like to read these threads... then sit back and validate why I can't live in a red state anymore. I just watch their football teams!
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    It must be wonderful for you to call yourself centrist by merely painting other people further away from you. Good show!
    Nice weather on your planet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    I would love to see the polling for this, where your numbres are verified. Keep in mind that people might see themselves as conservative on issues and not overall. However, please source away (and of course we know that foxnews is as reliable as msnbc)
    Keep in mind, this information came out of the conservative bastion of NEWSWEEK :

    So are we a centrist country, or a right-of-center one? I think the latter, because the mean to which most Americans revert tends to be more conservative than liberal. . . . nearly twice as many people call themselves conservatives as liberals (40 percent to 20 percent), and Republicans have dominated presidential politics—in many ways the most personal, visceral vote we cast—for 40 years. Since 1968, Democrats have won only three of 10 general elections (1976, 1992 and 1996). . . .
    Meacham: We're a Conservative Country | Newsweek Politics: Campaign 2008 | Newsweek.com

    I think I heard before that the survey originally came from Rasmussen, but I'm not 100% sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    He is really a Federalist, not a liberal. Your just using liberal as a derogatory term, not a real description of who/what Obama really is. There are no liberal politicians, that would be a contradiction in terms.

    Are you serious? A Federalist?

    I am sure Obama would be all for letting each state vote and make its own laws on gay marriage and abortion.....As long as a court could "fix" any mistakes voters make. (See California marriage amendment overturned)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vtaper View Post
    Are you serious? A Federalist?

    I am sure Obama would be all for letting each state vote and make its own laws on gay marriage and abortion.....As long as a court could "fix" any mistakes voters make. (See California marriage amendment overturned)
    Dead serious. A federalist, by definition, is one who is for a strong central government.

    I dont know what your second paragraph means. But I am really tired, I've been studying approaches, VOR/NDB/ILS, holds, DME arcs and instruments till my eyes bleed, so if you have time to clarify I will gladly respond
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Dead serious. A federalist, by definition, is one who is for a strong central government.

    I dont know what your second paragraph means. But I am really tired, I've been studying approaches, VOR/NDB/ILS, holds, DME arcs and instruments till my eyes bleed, so if you have time to clarify I will gladly respond
    Keep in mind that by that definition China and Soviet Russia could be coined a Federalist government, so that definition is lacking. Here's what wiki had for federalist in the US context:

    In reference to the historical political party and as defined by Merriam-Webster, someone favoring a strong centralized national government.

    In contemporary usage, as articulated by President Bush's New Federalism, federalists advocate the principle of greater regional autonomy within the United States—usually by allowing individual states to set their own agendas and determine the handling of issues, rather than trying to impose a nationally uniform solution.[citation needed]
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Keep in mind that by that definition China and Soviet Russia could be coined a Federalist government,

    so that definition is lacking. Here's what wiki had for federalist in the US context:
    In reference to the historical political party and as defined by Merriam-Webster, someone favoring a strong centralized national government.
    The above is the way I was using the word federalist.

    In contemporary usage, as articulated by President Bush's New Federalism, federalists advocate the principle of greater regional autonomy within the United States—usually by allowing individual states to set their own agendas and determine the handling of issues, rather than trying to impose a nationally uniform solution.[citation needed]
    Thats a rather odd definition, "New Federalism", this is the first I've heard of such a thing. Sound like "real americans" too me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Thats a rather odd definition, "New Federalism", this is the first I've heard of such a thing. Sound like "real americans" too me.
    Yeah, it definitely strikes me as odd. Its definitely a state's rights viewpoint.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    ....

    I think think the fact that you uncritically accept admitted lies & fragmentary bits of old conversation, taken out of context and misrepresented as 'a true picture of Obama's politics', demonstrates more than adequately that you couldn't find the political middle in a brightly lit room with both hands and a compass.
    This well-sculpted comment is deservedly brilliant in its simplicity. No offense meant, EasyEJL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    This well-sculpted comment is deservedly brilliant in its simplicity. No offense meant, EasyEJL!


    Well sculpted but also possessing rather selective vision on his behalf... I'm not sure where i've said I've uncritcally accepted anything, nor have I seen any proof to the contrary about obama's recordings. How do you reparse what is in audio from 5 years ago?

    The fact that I dislike obama's stated economic policies and distrust his associations does not be default make me a far-righter. I don't believe in religious doctrine, believe in women's choice on abortions, equal rights for gay couples, etc. I'm a registered independent, and have voted for both democrats and republicans.

    So as with Obama's own speeches although what BodyWizard wrote has some elegance, it doesn't mean it has any substance
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post


    Well sculpted but also possessing rather selective vision on his behalf... I'm not sure where i've said I've uncritcally accepted anything, nor have I seen any proof to the contrary about obama's recordings. How do you reparse what is in audio from 5 years ago?

    The fact that I dislike obama's stated economic policies and distrust his associations does not be default make me a far-righter. I don't believe in religious doctrine, believe in women's choice on abortions, equal rights for gay couples, etc. I'm a registered independent, and have voted for both democrats and republicans.

    So as with Obama's own speeches although what BodyWizard wrote has some elegance, it doesn't mean it has any substance
    Honestly, your political view is of complete irrelevance to me. And vice versa, I dare say preemptively. I simply admired the eloquence and literary force of his comment. My admiration of the textual structure of his comments would be the same, irrespective of the target of his commentary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    I think think the fact that you uncritically accept admitted lies & fragmentary bits of old conversation, taken out of context and misrepresented as 'a true picture of Obama's politics', demonstrates more than adequately that you couldn't find the political middle in a brightly lit room with both hands and a compass.
    Outside of hollow campaign rhetoric, I challenge you to find anything in Obama's record that would even insinuate that he is in the political middle and not among the most left wing politicians in the American political landscape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    Honestly, your political view is of complete irrelevance to me. And vice versa, I dare say preemptively. I simply admired the eloquence and literary force of his comment. My admiration of the textual structure of his comments would be the same, irrespective of the target of his commentary.
    That I can agree with, it was a well put together sentiment
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Outside of hollow campaign rhetoric, I challenge you to find anything in Obama's record that would even insinuate that he is in the political middle and not among the most left wing politicians in the American political landscape.
    I think your definitions & presumptions make any such effort on my part pointless - especially since every Democrat who runs for POTUS is anointed "the most left wing politicians in the American political landscape" by those who style themselves "conservatives" rather than reactionary extremists.

    To put it another way: *ALL* evidence I've submitted regarding the disconnect between the conservative mainstream over the last 50 years and the neo-con plutocratic global adventurism of today has been discounted, dismissed, ignored - even attacked. If you want me (or anyone) to provide evidence to satisfy you as to the bona-fides of your political/economic opponents, I suggest you (collectively) show some respect for the evidence already presented.

    Alternatively, you could make an effort to prove YOUR position on the matter...but please, post something besides Malkin, Prager & co. - opinion is only evidence of opinion. With respect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    I think your definitions & presumptions make any such effort on my part pointless - especially since every Democrat who runs for POTUS is anointed "the most left wing politicians in the American political landscape" by those who style themselves "conservatives" rather than reactionary extremists.

    To put it another way: *ALL* evidence I've submitted regarding the disconnect between the conservative mainstream over the last 50 years and the neo-con plutocratic global adventurism of today has been discounted, dismissed, ignored - even attacked. If you want me (or anyone) to provide evidence to satisfy you as to the bona-fides of your political/economic opponents, I suggest you (collectively) show some respect for the evidence already presented.

    Alternatively, you could make an effort to prove YOUR position on the matter...but please, post something besides Malkin, Prager & co. - opinion is only evidence of opinion. With respect.
    comical! again the attempt to paint the opposing side as further away from center as the only way to make your candidate look centrist.

    we're looking for a single substantiative ACTION that shows bipartisanship on his behalf. considering he has based this campaign on 'republicans are evil, their ideas are all wrong, and they alone caused the financial crisis'
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    comical! again the attempt to paint the opposing side as further away from center as the only way to make your candidate look centrist.

    we're looking for a single substantiative ACTION that shows bipartisanship on his behalf. considering he has based this campaign on 'republicans are evil, their ideas are all wrong, and they alone caused the financial crisis'
    To the contrary, I would say Obama based his campaign on what's wrong with Washington and the last 8 years under GWB while McCain and the "Late Talk Express" spent most of their early time trying to paint Obama as the "Boogey Man" and chasing ghosts. While you may not like what he has to say, Obama has very rarely spoke of the Republicans in general other than to very succinctly tie McSame and the Spokesmodel to GWB while being called every and anything that could be imagined (schocker!!). IMO after today it will all come under the heading of "Whatever"

    :bruce3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastone View Post
    Obama has very rarely spoke of the Republicans in general other than to very succinctly tie McSame and the Spokesmodel to GWB while being called every and anything that could be imagined (schocker!!).
    I guess you haven't listened to his speeches then, or are just blinded in some other way, which seems to be the case for most of his supporters
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I guess you haven't listened to his speeches then, or are just blinded in some other way, which seems to be the case for most of his supporters
    No, I've listened quite well, I'm just not totally opposed to everything Obama has to say like you obviously are. That and at least for me a lot of what he has to say rings true.

    :bruce3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    I think your definitions & presumptions make any such effort on my part pointless - especially since every Democrat who runs for POTUS is anointed "the most left wing politicians in the American political landscape" by those who style themselves "conservatives" rather than reactionary extremists.

    To put it another way: *ALL* evidence I've submitted regarding the disconnect between the conservative mainstream over the last 50 years and the neo-con plutocratic global adventurism of today has been discounted, dismissed, ignored - even attacked. If you want me (or anyone) to provide evidence to satisfy you as to the bona-fides of your political/economic opponents, I suggest you (collectively) show some respect for the evidence already presented.

    Alternatively, you could make an effort to prove YOUR position on the matter...but please, post something besides Malkin, Prager & co. - opinion is only evidence of opinion. With respect.
    I challenged you to find any evidence that Obama is who is says he is. You came back with....no you prove it.

    Show me some where on his voting record where he didn't vote extreme left. Its not a tall order. He says he will unite the parties. Does he expect the Republican Party to join him on the extreme left? To unite the parties you would have to have a centrist platform. Where is it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I challenged you to find any evidence that Obama is who is says he is. You came back with....no you prove it.

    Show me some where on his voting record where he didn't vote extreme left. Its not a tall order. He says he will unite the parties. Does he expect the Republican Party to join him on the extreme left? To unite the parties you would have to have a centrist platform. Where is it?
    he has a centrist platform in words, however he has no centrist record in action, unless you are viewing this from canada's perspective (in which case he is a conservative)
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