Fact Checking NBC: SNL Palin Incest Skit

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    Fact Checking NBC: SNL Palin Incest Skit


    WTF....I hope no one has the audacity to defend that skit. You can say it was poking fun at the NY Times, but there is a line of good taste and it was utterly ignored.

    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRXQ2ZueP5c"]YouTube - Saturday Night Live Todd Palin - Incest Smear[/nomedia]

    This was the only video of it I could find.

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    Nobody wants to talk about this? Not many things leave me speechless, but when I heard about this I was completely speechless.
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    I can remember when skits like this were taboo... I liked T.V. a lot more then.
    Without picking a side, I will say that it was poor taste and I don't think that it was funny.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Lungz View Post
    I can remember when skits like this were taboo... I liked T.V. a lot more then.
    Without picking a side, I will say that it was poor taste and I don't think that it was funny.
    I guess what shocked me is that I thought they still were taboo!
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I guess what shocked me is that I thought they still were taboo!
    Sadly, it's not. Without getting in to the politics of it, the freedom of expression/free thought is being taken to the maximum. It's all about how far the envelope can be pushed now.
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    certain things are off limits, and this should be one of them. There are too many times where things go overboard, pathetic
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    You guys are really worried about a skit on saturday night live? There is no more pressing issues we could be debating than a satirical news conference from a moving picture box thats existence is only to sell commercials?

    How about if you replaced palins husband with Earl Higgins from arkansas, still not funny?
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    You guys are really worried about a skit on saturday night live? There is no more pressing issues we could be debating than a satirical news conference from a moving picture box thats existence is only to sell commercials?

    How about if you replaced palins husband with Earl Higgins from arkansas, still not funny?
    Calling a parent and the spouse of a Vice Presidential candidate a pedophile on national TV without basis is disgusting not satirical.

    I can't believe this barely even made the news anywhere other than on conservative talk radio. Just shows who is deciding on what is newsworthy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Calling a parent and the spouse of a Vice Presidential candidate a pedophile on national TV without basis is disgusting not satirical.
    The news conference was satirical, the comments were irreverant, but like I said: T.V. isnt real, it exists in it of itself, purely for economic revenue, as do radio stations, they have a target market and they play whatever they need to, to get viewers. Which in turns allows them to charge a higher price for advertising time.

    If you think this is bad, you would riot in the streets over south park.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    The news conference was satirical, the comments were irreverant, but like I said: T.V. isnt real, it exists in it of itself, purely for economic revenue, as do radio stations, they have a target market and they play whatever they need to, to get viewers. Which in turns allows them to charge a higher price for advertising time.

    If you think this is bad, you would riot in the streets over south park.
    I disagree that its purely for economic revenue. If that were true don't you think another network would go a little less to the left and try and compete with Fox News. Their ratings utterly destroy every other cable news network in every demographic? You said it was all about the revenue.

    Cable News Nielsen TV Ratings for Tuesday, September 16, 2008
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    I'm not an investment banker, I cant say why certain financial decisions are made.

    But its not up for discussion whether T.V. is a for profit enterprise, its a fact. T.V. isn't the peace corp, its a business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    I'm not an investment banker, I cant say why certain financial decisions are made.

    But its not up for discussion whether T.V. is a for profit enterprise, its a fact. T.V. isn't the peace corp, its a business.
    Why is it not up for discussion? You said TV made its decision off what makes them the most money, like it was a fact.

    I showed you that cable news networks were not doing what makes them the most money. I'd say they are either incompetent or they are basing their decisions on something other than money.
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    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

    That simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

    - Evelyn Beatrice Hall

    That simple.
    I didn't say or even hint that NBC should not be allowed to say it, I just said I thought it was over the line of good taste and NBC should apologize to the Palins.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Why is it not up for discussion? You said TV made its decision off what makes them the most money, like it was a fact.

    I showed you that cable news networks were not doing what makes them the most money. I'd say they are either incompetent or they are basing their decisions on something other than money.

    It is a fact. Each cable network does what it feels will appeal to their target market, that doesn't mean they have to succeed, it just means thats how things are done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    It is a fact. Each cable network does what it feels will appeal to their target market, that doesn't mean they have to succeed, it just means thats how things are done.
    If its a fact, prove it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    If its a fact, prove it.
    Ok: What TV channel doesnt sell advertising?
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Ok: What TV channel doesnt sell advertising?
    HBO, Showtime.....

    I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't mean they're not willing to sacrifice profits to promote a candidate or ideal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I didn't say or even hint that NBC should not be allowed to say it, I just said I thought it was over the line of good taste and NBC should apologize to the Palins.
    Exactly; I suppose I should have clarified further, Rob. The debate seemed to be leading towards the inevitable, "This should not have been allowed to air". Whether or not this would have been an eventual legal discussion is debatable; however, morally - at the very least - this was the insinuation!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Exactly; I suppose I should have clarified further, Rob. The debate seemed to be leading towards the inevitable, "This should not have been allowed to air". Whether or not this would have been an eventual legal discussion is debatable; however, morally - at the very least - this was the insinuation!
    I don't think it should have been allowed to air, I think NBC should have policed themselves. I can't remember ever hearing about anything on TV being more blantantly offensive to an individual.

    That being said, I don't believe its the FCC's role to step in and censor it. It was on late at night which is the appropriate time for more racy material.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    HBO, Showtime.....

    I understand what you're saying, but that doesn't mean they're not willing to sacrifice profits to promote a candidate or ideal.
    Subscription costs = purely for profit. Thats why they are "premium channels", that extra fee goes to them. And last time I had HBO i thought they ran infrequent commercials? I dont remember its been like 8-9 yrs since I had it.

    I dont honestly believe there is a channel out there that isnt carefully scripted by the managers overseeing the writers. Case in point is bill o'reilly vs daily show. 2 very different target markets that they attract with a similar marketing plan. Making viewers happy = more viewers= money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    Subscription costs = purely for profit. Thats why they are "premium channels", that extra fee goes to them. And last time I had HBO i thought they ran infrequent commercials? I dont remember its been like 8-9 yrs since I had it.
    I know, was just sayin...

    Quote Originally Posted by futurepilot View Post
    I dont honestly believe there is a channel out there that isnt carefully scripted by the managers overseeing the writers. Case in point is bill o'reilly vs daily show. 2 very different target markets that they attract with a similar marketing plan. Making viewers happy = more viewers= money.
    The only way you'd know would be to have someone on the inside. At this point all we can do is speculate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I don't think it should have been allowed to air, I think NBC should have policed themselves.
    This sentence is the indexical for my previous proposition! Without morphing this into another epistemological debate, this statement necessarily expresses that NBC "should not have" aired the skit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    This sentence is the indexical for my previous proposition! Without morphing this into another epistemological debate, this statement necessarily expresses that NBC "should not have" aired the skit.
    Agreed, this one is definitely not worth an epistemological debate! I thought you were talking about government censorship when you said "should not have aired".
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    I have to disagree on this one. Freedom of speech is absolute. Somewhere along the way the right to free speech got confused with the right to not be offended. As far as I know, most tv's come with a remote or some form of device for channel manipulation if you find something offensive. If you don't like it, employ them. I saw it as completely satyrical. At no point did I think they were actually accusing them of incest. It was more of a swipe at journalist/media. To me, it was no more offensive than the blatant lies and insults told to us thru the candidates campaign ads.
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    who cares its a tv show! they make jokes, it was funny! i laughed hahahaha! with al the stuff going on right now this should be the least of your worries!

    -GJJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
    I have to disagree on this one. Freedom of speech is absolute. Somewhere along the way the right to free speech got confused with the right to not be offended. As far as I know, most tv's come with a remote or some form of device for channel manipulation if you find something offensive. If you don't like it, employ them. I saw it as completely satyrical. At no point did I think they were actually accusing them of incest. It was more of a swipe at journalist/media. To me, it was no more offensive than the blatant lies and insults told to us thru the candidates campaign ads.
    true that !
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
    I have to disagree on this one. Freedom of speech is absolute. Somewhere along the way the right to free speech got confused with the right to not be offended. As far as I know, most tv's come with a remote or some form of device for channel manipulation if you find something offensive. If you don't like it, employ them. I saw it as completely satyrical. At no point did I think they were actually accusing them of incest. It was more of a swipe at journalist/media. To me, it was no more offensive than the blatant lies and insults told to us thru the candidates campaign ads.
    Freedom of speech is not absolute. Its a right that if used in a reasonable manner is not to be infringed upon by congress. If it was absolute, the Simpsons would be saying f.uck and you could legally go cry "fire" in a movie theater.

    However, that wasn't even the issue I brought up. I thought the skit was in poor taste and that NBC should acknowledge they went to far and apologize to the Palins. I never said that it should be censored by the government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Freedom of speech is not absolute. Its a right that if used in a reasonable manner is not to be infringed upon by congress. If it was absolute, the Simpsons would be saying f.uck and you could legally go cry "fire" in a movie theater.

    However, that wasn't even the issue I brought up. I thought the skit was in poor taste and that NBC should acknowledge they went to far and apologize to the Palins. I never said that it should be censored by the government.
    Again I disagree. Freedom of speech as defined is most certainly absolute. It means speaking without limitation or censorship. To say that it has "to be used in a reasonable manner" is the exact opposite of what it is. It has nothing to do with using tact and good taste. To say that their are limits to what you can say is contradictory to the very idea of freedom of speech.The simpsons cant say F uck on tv due to network censors. It has nothing to do with perceived limits of freedom of speech. I don't feel that NBC owes anyone an apology and in fact think THAT idea(that they should apologize) is one of the things troubling this country. You have every right to find it in poor taste or offensive. It's clearly not in your taste and I don't criticize you for that at all. However, there is nothing in the first amendment that protects you from ever being offended. You have a choice, you don't have to watch it.
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    Whooooo cares? It was a stupid skit, but come on. Getting your panties in a bunch over it is kinda lame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaddow View Post
    Whooooo cares? It was a stupid skit, but come on. Getting your panties in a bunch over it is kinda lame.

    thats what im saying!


    STOP! B!TCHIN!!!!
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    You guys don't know from bad taste unless you watch Family Guy. That being said the show is funny as hell, you find yourself doubled over in laughter as your mind is saying "That ain't right"

    :bruce3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
    Again I disagree. Freedom of speech as defined is most certainly absolute. It means speaking without limitation or censorship. To say that it has "to be used in a reasonable manner" is the exact opposite of what it is. It has nothing to do with using tact and good taste. To say that their are limits to what you can say is contradictory to the very idea of freedom of speech.The simpsons cant say F uck on tv due to network censors. It has nothing to do with perceived limits of freedom of speech. I don't feel that NBC owes anyone an apology and in fact think THAT idea(that they should apologize) is one of the things troubling this country. You have every right to find it in poor taste or offensive. It's clearly not in your taste and I don't criticize you for that at all. However, there is nothing in the first amendment that protects you from ever being offended. You have a choice, you don't have to watch it.
    Again, this isn't what I was talking about, but just to show that you're wrong and freedom of speech is NOT absolute in the United States, here's the wikipedia entry:

    Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. Criticism of the government and advocation of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, are generally permitted. There are exceptions to the general protection of speech, however, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright), interests in fair political campaigns (Campaign finance laws), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are also often made between speech and other acts, such as flag desecration, which may have symbolic significance.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom..._United_States

    Obviously there are limitations based upon this entry, and therefore Freedom of Speech is NOT absolute. You may disagree with the interpretation of the Supreme Court, but they are the final say in the interpretation of the first amendment. They have said in several rulings that there are limits on free speech, just as there are limits in the right to bear arms.

    As for the issue over whether or not NBC should apologize, I think this is an agree to disagree issue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Again, this isn't what I was talking about, but just to show that you're wrong and freedom of speech is NOT absolute in the United States, here's the wikipedia entry:

    Freedom of speech in the United States is protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and by many state constitutions and state and federal laws. Criticism of the government and advocation of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, are generally permitted. There are exceptions to the general protection of speech, however, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright), interests in fair political campaigns (Campaign finance laws), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are also often made between speech and other acts, such as flag desecration, which may have symbolic significance.

    Freedom of speech in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Obviously there are limitations based upon this entry, and therefore Freedom of Speech is NOT absolute. You may disagree with the interpretation of the Supreme Court, but they are the final say in the interpretation of the first amendment. They have said in several rulings that there are limits on free speech, just as there are limits in the right to bear arms.

    As for the issue over whether or not NBC should apologize, I think this is an agree to disagree issue.
    Jerry falwell took larry flint to court over almost the same thing you are offended by. Flint accused falwell of screwing his own mother in a cartoon in his magazine. Flints right to free speech was defended because as a public figure falwell is subject to satire, regardless of taste. As for the rest of your wikipedia stuff, you are confusing legal copyright rules as limiting free speech. That is a legal issue not a philosophical one. In the context of the discussion, I challenge you to show me where the supreme court had ruled that something couldn't be said because it was offensive, which was my point-not copyright issues. Child pornogrophy and all those others things you listed invovle a physical attack or incident-that is why they are illegal. It (the IDEA of free speech) was intended to be absolute in that context and damn well should be. From the link you provided:

    The First Amendment was ratified on December 15, 1791. The Amendment states:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Sounds pretty damn clear to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
    Jerry falwell took larry flint to court over almost the same thing you are offended by. Flint accused falwell of screwing his own mother in a cartoon in his magazine. Flints right to free speech was defended because as a public figure falwell is subject to satire, regardless of taste. As for the rest of your wikipedia stuff, you are confusing legal copyright rules as limiting free speech. That is a legal issue not a philosophical one. In the context of the discussion, I challenge you to show me where the supreme court had ruled that something couldn't be said because it was offensive, which was my point-not copyright issues. Child pornogrophy and all those others things you listed invovle a physical attack or incident-that is why they are illegal. It (the IDEA of free speech) was intended to be absolute in that context and damn well should be. From the link you provided:

    The First Amendment was ratified on December 15, 1791. The Amendment states:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Sounds pretty damn clear to me.

    Take a step back. Read my posts. I never said I thought this should be a legal issue. NEVER. Read my posts. All the stuff I wrote was in response to you saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
    Freedom of speech as defined is most certainly absolute.
    Its not an absolute. You can quote the Bill of Rights all day, but its tedious as there are hundreds of legal decisions called case law that interpret the amendment, so you writing that does nothing. Absolute mean no limitations. There are limitations to freedom of speech and I outlined them in my previous post.

    I'm well aware of the people vs larry flynt decision and what I said had nothing to do with that decision. I said that since NBC claims to be a reputable and unbiased news and entertainment source they should apologize to the Palin family. You disagree obviously, so as I said in the previous post.....we should agree to disagree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    Take a step back. Read my posts. I never said I thought this should be a legal issue. NEVER. Read my posts. All the stuff I wrote was in response to you saying:



    Its not an absolute. You can quote the Bill of Rights all day, but its tedious as there are hundreds of legal decisions called case law that interpret the amendment, so you writing that does nothing. Absolute mean no limitations. There are limitations to freedom of speech and I outlined them in my previous post.

    I'm well aware of the people vs larry flynt decision and what I said had nothing to do with that decision. I said that since NBC claims to be a reputable and unbiased news and entertainment source they should apologize to the Palin family. You disagree obviously, so as I said in the previous post.....we should agree to disagree.
    Yeah actually I have no idea WHAT you're arguing anymore. I completely and always will disagree with you on what the IDEA of free speech was intended to be in this country. You just said that nbc should apologize because you found the skit distasteful. It is -as YOU said, entertainment. Palin is NOT above satire, sorry. How you cannot see the parrallel with the flint case is beyond me. Both falwell and palin were accused of incest in the satirical comedies. The supreme court ruled in flints favor. They did not force you to watch and there is nothing in the bill of rights, which I will quote all day because, silly me, feel that it's important-there is no law from protecting you from being offended no matter how much junk you try to cloud the issue with. You are talking about censorship plain and simple. Asking people to start apologizing for unpopular speech is INSANE. We absolutely disagree, and that's fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead View Post
    Yeah actually I have no idea WHAT you're arguing anymore. I completely and always will disagree with you on what the IDEA of free speech was intended to be in this country. You just said that nbc should apologize because you found the skit distasteful. It is -as YOU said, entertainment. Palin is NOT above satire, sorry. How you cannot see the parrallel with the flint case is beyond me. Both falwell and palin were accused of incest in the satirical comedies. The supreme court ruled in flints favor. They did not force you to watch and there is nothing in the bill of rights, which I will quote all day because, silly me, feel that it's important-there is no law from protecting you from being offended no matter how much junk you try to cloud the issue with. You are talking about censorship plain and simple. Asking people to start apologizing for unpopular speech is INSANE. We absolutely disagree, and that's fine.
    I guess NBC is on par with Hustler.
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    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/newre...te=1&p=1591967

    http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...49900120080215

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A967948260

    An apology from NBC would not be unprecedented by any stretch. The last link is an apology about a SNL skit.

    As for your Larry Flynt parallel. Larry Flynt was a libel suit. I said NBC should apologize for their skit. Apples and oranges.
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    As was mentioned earlier in the discussion, the skit was clearly not intended as a slight to the Palin family, but as a critique of journalism, as evinced by the headline about the journalist who excelled at exposing stories that have no proof or negative proof. I don't want to be disrespectful of the people in this discussion, but it seemed readily apparent to me that the skit was not an indictment of Todd Palin at all and to interpret it as such seriously misses the point.

    Further, as far as the Free Speech discussion goes, it is important to mention the State Action doctrine - our free speech is protected as against actions by Congress, not by private individuals, as with other "fundamental rights." I, as a private citizen, am free to deprive you of your right to free speech. The Constitution was written as a check on the power of the federal gov't against the states, not private citizens or corporations against eachother.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I guess NBC is on par with Hustler.
    As it's rights are defended by the law, it damn sure is. But then, you didn't understand the skit, so I guess you probably wouldn't get that either.
  

  
 

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