Just received european Norcodrene, what is in it?

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    Just received european Norcodrene, what is in it?


    Hey guys,

    I just received a bottle of norcodrene from the only place where its available in europe. the formula on the bottle didnt match the information on their page (as you would kind of expect from them, haven't had a single good experience ordering from there but what can i do, you americans apparently always give them exclusive reign over everything interesting) and i have not seen a mention of an european formula anywhere here (but didnt go through all 60 pages of the norco thread obviously)...

    thus, a couple questions:
    general, regarding formula:
    - lindera aggregata sa2-a2 instead of the sa2-a yohimbe extract, is there any real difference (except for extraction source obviously)?
    - both cirsiums are missing, unless 7-geranyloxycoumarin is one of the actives
    - said 7-geranyloxycoumarin has been added, what is this? what does it do? why do i want it?
    - grapefruit seed extract doesnt mention the nomileantm thingy, i assume its the same thing tho?
    - why did you go for n-coumaroyldopamine again when it has been removed from the newer alphamines? remaining stock where you figured that you might as well use it up because it doesnt hurt or sth :P?
    - caffeine content is not disclosed, is it still 100mg/cap? i wanted to stack this with cardiotryx (80mg/sv) after i establish how i respond and dont really want to go above 300mg

    also, stacking:
    - does adding in at2 later in the run make a lot of difference or is it a half waste because theres enough a2 blockers/higenamine in the norco blend anyway?
    - erase pro (new formula) should be fine/synergistic, i assume?
    - cardiotryx to add in preworkout?
    - just out of curiosity, the lodhra bark in your new abe is touted as a pde inhibitor thingy. synergism, overlap, anything too look out for etc with amentoflavone?
    - is l-dopa fine or will it clash with sth, i know yohimbine is a tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitor but that shouldn't really affect the end product. anything i might want to know that i dont? i know the common advice often given is 'just take it 8 hours after you last dose of anything yohimbe-ish' but why does that make sense?

    thanks in advance, i know its a lot but i guess there are quite a few people who ask themselves at least some of the same things. especially about dat dere 7-geranyloxycoumarin because wiki just goes all 'The effect in humans is not yet known' on me examine doesnt have anything on it and im not gonna start pubmeddling over that, so a cooper-esque writeup would be nice.

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    I will check with HQ on the euro version and will come back to you or get another rep more familiar with the euro formula to get back to you
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    I would also like to know this too, since I just got some bottles.
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    okay so its still 100mg/cap and the sa-a2 thing is an a2 antagonist.. what about the rest? whats 7-geranyloxycoumarin? why are the cirsiums taken out? etc etc
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    7-GOC has abilities in vivo to target white adipose tissue

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20681532
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    OK. But why teh remove off the cirsiums and the inclusion of n-coumaroyldopamine? I thought cooper said its worthless. Did his opinion change?
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    um... to be blunt, i am not a happy customer at all and i do not know if you just did not have the time or do not care enough to answer properly.
    i posted a lot of questions (which i imagine more than just the 2 ppl posting here will have in the future, so its not just for me) and all you did was basically give me oneliner answers to half of half of them (the marketing writeup doesnt tell me much more than yes, the one extract is an a2 antagonist as implied, and yes, its still 100mg caffeine per cap).
    i can't tell much from that one rat study thing because i do not have a degree or anything in the field and will therefore misinterpret what is written there even if i do not fall into a language barrier trap (i'm not a native english speaker) because i do not have any real frame of reference or any expertise that would be worth mentioning.

    what i am thinking right now is that you tried to circumvent the yohimbe ban in some countries and had to cut costs or make room in the capsules because the replacement extract is not as available as yohimbe might be (and, therefore, more expensive) and put in something pretty experimental (or at least unsual) to make up for the cirsiums.
    i have bought this bottle because the american version had a lot of great feedback and its apparently coops brainchild, whom i trust to a reasonable degree because he seems to be a stand-up guy who knows his stuff, is mostly on here to help people and, above all else, is really refreshingly honest when he posts.
    he probably included the cirsiums because he thought it would be the best inclusion, otherwise the original formula would likely have had auraptene as well since it makes no sense to build a worse version (unless there is some legal **** at play which i know nothing about). it also seems like you removed ne NCD at least in part to his influence, and now it shows up in 'his' formula, which makes me think he did not have as much to do with it as with the original, therefore you lose the trust-bonus from me. the other ingredients all have really really nice writeups in this very subforum, 7-goc doesnt, the sa2-a2 does neither (although someone with more experience probably could piece it together themselves from the references, but as i said, i do need the translation).


    i would not have bought the bottle at a ~6€ (about $8!) markup if i had known it is a new formula with no feedback. i might have - actually, probably would have, the formula still looks decent and interesting enough and you never dissappointed me, esp on the new erase pro & alphamine - bought a bottle at a different place at a later time (if you could finally confirm what the GSE is extracted for), but got scammed by your business partner/retailer predator nutrition. this is what is on their site right now:



    90 Caps Norcodrene
    Serving Size: 2 Capsules
    Servings Per Container: 45
    Amount Per Serving
    Proprietary Blend 550mg
    TGR5a-Infused Matrix *
    CirsiumPlex™ Blend (Cirsium Oligophyllum (whole plant) Extract, Japanese Thistle (root) Extract), Grapefruit (seed) Extract (Nomilean™), Selaginella Tamariscina (whole plant) Extract, (Standardized for Amentoflavone)
    Thermo Energy Matrix *
    Paustynstalia (bark) Extract (Standardized for Alkaloids)(SA2-A™), Nelumbo Nucifera (seed) Extract, (Standardized for Higenamine) *
    Caffeine 200mg


    As you can see, they even did a highly shady thing and intentionally misspelled pausinystalia and left out the 'yohimbe' (thus you know it is intentional) to sucker people into thinking it is the original formula while evading showing up on google or their on sites search as yohimbine (so no trouble with the authorities).
    they did a similar thing with the alpha t2 (which has the original sa2-a in europe), see:

    Supplement Facts Alpha-T2
    Serving Size: 2 capsules Serving Size % Daily Value
    Servings Per Container: 45
    Alpha-T2 Proprietary Blend 600mg -

    Thyro-Adrenergic System *


    they just left out all ingredients here.

    now, i know this is kind of out of your hands and not your company, but i think you really, absolutely, definitely should care about it because they were the first place in europe to have norco, the only place who has select, is generally the only one with special deals from you guys for us europeans and this really doesnt sit well with me. it may not be entirely fair to you, but i do feel scammed (like i said, overpaid by about 20% for it and didnt know what i was getting) and this does make me have a negative emotional connotation which someone who is building a big brand probably does not want me to have (you can ask any business guy how that stuff works if you never looked at the data, even if i consciously only blame the retailer).
    this is the same shady company that bumped the price of craze up to ~$200 when it was rumored to contain ETH to 'conserve stock' while everyone else was selling theirs as fast as they could to get rid of it and then sold SAMPLES of it for 5 pound (again, almost $10 i think). they are also always ~5-10 bucks more expensive on literally everything and the worst place to buy stuff for us customers with condescending staff, impossible to communicate customer service which just copy/pastes standard answers that do not fit the situation at all, no samples on most orders (no matter how large, every other retailer i have ever ordered from never goes under ~one per hundred bucks), cheapest possible delivery service, etc.
    i hope you at least think about that a little in the back of your head when you deal with them again.
    i'm not looking to get rid of the bottle over a little price difference or anything (its obv not even worth the effort lol), stuff like this just really irks me in general because there is nothing you can do about it (whos gonna sue someone in a different country over a 40-50 buck item?) and this industry in general has enough BSN muscletech bpi bull****.

    i hope you can at least see where i am coming from thought-wise even if you might not share my point of view entirely or there might be more language barrier problems/slight cultural differences than i might realize.
    regards


    e: i'm sorry if i sound rude somewhere here, my english is generally good enough to express the straight thoughts that i have in weird grammar sentences, but i do not really know how the phrases i use come off to a native speaker, so if it sounds like i'm being a real dick it's pretty much not intentional.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgeier View Post
    OK. But why teh remove off the cirsiums and the inclusion of n-coumaroyldopamine? I thought cooper said its worthless. Did his opinion change?
    I don't know why he thinks it is worthless. We have had a lot of success and extremely positive feedback with the ingredient, so we are continuing to use it
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    Quote Originally Posted by iddqd View Post
    Hey guys,

    I just received a bottle of norcodrene from the only place where its available in europe. the formula on the bottle didnt match the information on their page (as you would kind of expect from them, haven't had a single good experience ordering from there but what can i do, you americans apparently always give them exclusive reign over everything interesting) and i have not seen a mention of an european formula anywhere here (but didnt go through all 60 pages of the norco thread obviously)...

    thus, a couple questions:
    general, regarding formula:
    - lindera aggregata sa2-a2 instead of the sa2-a yohimbe extract, is there any real difference (except for extraction source obviously)?
    - both cirsiums are missing, unless 7-geranyloxycoumarin is one of the actives
    - said 7-geranyloxycoumarin has been added, what is this? what does it do? why do i want it?
    - grapefruit seed extract doesnt mention the nomileantm thingy, i assume its the same thing tho?
    - why did you go for n-coumaroyldopamine again when it has been removed from the newer alphamines? remaining stock where you figured that you might as well use it up because it doesnt hurt or sth :P?
    - caffeine content is not disclosed, is it still 100mg/cap? i wanted to stack this with cardiotryx (80mg/sv) after i establish how i respond and dont really want to go above 300mg

    also, stacking:
    - does adding in at2 later in the run make a lot of difference or is it a half waste because theres enough a2 blockers/higenamine in the norco blend anyway?
    - erase pro (new formula) should be fine/synergistic, i assume?
    - cardiotryx to add in preworkout?
    - just out of curiosity, the lodhra bark in your new abe is touted as a pde inhibitor thingy. synergism, overlap, anything too look out for etc with amentoflavone?
    - is l-dopa fine or will it clash with sth, i know yohimbine is a tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitor but that shouldn't really affect the end product. anything i might want to know that i dont? i know the common advice often given is 'just take it 8 hours after you last dose of anything yohimbe-ish' but why does that make sense?

    thanks in advance, i know its a lot but i guess there are quite a few people who ask themselves at least some of the same things. especially about dat dere 7-geranyloxycoumarin because wiki just goes all 'The effect in humans is not yet known' on me examine doesnt have anything on it and im not gonna start pubmeddling over that, so a cooper-esque writeup would be nice.
    I was directing the questions to the other thread. But I will answer them here instead.

    - lindera aggregata sa2-a2 instead of the sa2-a yohimbe extract, is there any real difference (except for extraction source obviously
    Yes. SA2-A2 is extracted for Boldine, not Yohombine. Boldine is another very potent A2-antagonist that is compliant in Europe, where Yohimbine is banned. Finally Europeans can have a legit A2-antagonist.

    - both cirsiums are missing, unless 7-geranyloxycoumarin is one of the actives
    There was not enough room in the capsule for the Cirsiums here. The Boldine was far more important towards fat loss, and is something you can only find in Norcodrene in Europe. The 7-Geranyloxycoumarin is another new ingredient. In summary it is a PPARa agonist and also increases beta-oxidation. These are additional pathways to fat loss

    - said 7-geranyloxycoumarin has been added, what is this? what does it do? why do i want it
    As stated above. It works in tandem with the other ingredients, targeting multiple pathways of fat loss.

    - grapefruit seed extract doesnt mention the nomileantm thingy, i assume its the same thing tho
    We use the same grapefruit seed extract in both the USA and the UK

    - why did you go for n-coumaroyldopamine again when it has been removed from the newer alphamines? remaining stock where you figured that you might as well use it up because it doesnt hurt or sth :
    It is a great ingredient. We removed it in the USA to align with recent FDA comments on certain synthetic ingredients. The USA formula was altered to make up for the NCD removal

    - caffeine content is not disclosed, is it still 100mg/cap? i wanted to stack this with cardiotryx (80mg/sv) after i establish how i respond and dont really want to go above 300
    I would go with just 1 cardiotrx serving then. But you should try 1 Norcodrene with 1 Cardiotryx first since Norcodrene contains other stimulants, not just caffeine

    - does adding in at2 later in the run make a lot of difference or is it a half waste because theres enough a2 blockers/higenamine in the norco blend anyways
    I dont think you need it, but you will notice Boldine does not have a lot of heart-racing or anxiety-causing side effects. There are some people who love just to feel that way, regardless if its helping more with fat loss or not. If you combine AT2 with EU Norcodrene, you will get a lot of stimulation, so keep that in mind. If that is what you are looking for then go for it. But I don't think you need it

    - erase pro (new formula) should be fine/synergistic, i assume?
    Very synergistic, especially since the new EP also has a PPAR agonist as well

    - cardiotryx to add in preworkou
    Start with 1 serving of both

    - just out of curiosity, the lodhra bark in your new abe is touted as a pde inhibitor thingy. synergism, overlap, anything too look out for etc with amentoflavone?Synergistic with Amento - great stack!

    - is l-dopa fine or will it clash with sth, i know yohimbine is a tyrosine hydroxylase inhibitor but that shouldn't really affect the end product. anything i might want to know that i dont? i know the common advice often given is 'just take it 8 hours after you last dose of anything yohimbe-ish' but why does that make sense?L-Dopa should not be taken at the same time. 8 hours apart would be ideal, or longer

    Cooper esque writeup coming soon

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    Quote Originally Posted by iddqd View Post

    what i am thinking right now is that you tried to circumvent the yohimbe ban in some countries and had to cut costs or make room in the capsules because the replacement extract is not as available as yohimbe might be (and, therefore, more expensive) and put in something pretty experimental (or at least unsual) to make up for the cirsiums.
    i have bought this bottle because the american version had a lot of great feedback and its apparently coops brainchild, whom i trust to a reasonable degree because he seems to be a stand-up guy who knows his stuff, is mostly on here to help people and, above all else, is really refreshingly honest when he posts.
    he probably included the cirsiums because he thought it would be the best inclusion, otherwise the original formula would likely have had auraptene as well since it makes no sense to build a worse version (unless there is some legal **** at play which i know nothing about). it also seems like you removed ne NCD at least in part to his influence, and now it shows up in 'his' formula, which makes me think he did not have as much to do with it as with the original, therefore you lose the trust-bonus from me. the other ingredients all have really really nice writeups in this very subforum, 7-goc doesnt, the sa2-a2 does neither (although someone with more experience probably could piece it together themselves from the references, but as i said, i do need the translation).


    i would not have bought the bottle at a ~6€ (about $8!) markup if i had known it is a new formula with no feedback. i might have - actually, probably would have, the formula still looks decent and interesting enough and you never dissappointed me, esp on the new erase pro & alphamine - bought a bottle at a different place at a later time (if you could finally confirm what the GSE is extracted for), but got scammed by your business partner/retailer predator nutrition. this is what is on their site right now:



    90 Caps Norcodrene
    Serving Size: 2 Capsules
    Servings Per Container: 45
    Amount Per Serving
    Proprietary Blend 550mg
    TGR5a-Infused Matrix *
    CirsiumPlex™ Blend (Cirsium Oligophyllum (whole plant) Extract, Japanese Thistle (root) Extract), Grapefruit (seed) Extract (Nomilean™), Selaginella Tamariscina (whole plant) Extract, (Standardized for Amentoflavone)
    Thermo Energy Matrix *
    Paustynstalia (bark) Extract (Standardized for Alkaloids)(SA2-A™), Nelumbo Nucifera (seed) Extract, (Standardized for Higenamine) *
    Caffeine 200mg


    As you can see, they even did a highly shady thing and intentionally misspelled pausinystalia and left out the 'yohimbe' (thus you know it is intentional) to sucker people into thinking it is the original formula while evading showing up on google or their on sites search as yohimbine (so no trouble with the authorities).
    they did a similar thing with the alpha t2 (which has the original sa2-a in europe), see:

    Supplement Facts Alpha-T2
    Serving Size: 2 capsules Serving Size % Daily Value
    Servings Per Container: 45
    Alpha-T2 Proprietary Blend 600mg -

    Thyro-Adrenergic System *


    they just left out all ingredients here.

    now, i know this is kind of out of your hands and not your company, but i think you really, absolutely, definitely should care about it because they were the first place in europe to have norco, the only place who has select, is generally the only one with special deals from you guys for us europeans and this really doesnt sit well with me. it may not be entirely fair to you, but i do feel scammed (like i said, overpaid by about 20% for it and didnt know what i was getting) and this does make me have a negative emotional connotation which someone who is building a big brand probably does not want me to have (you can ask any business guy how that stuff works if you never looked at the data, even if i consciously only blame the retailer).
    this is the same shady company that bumped the price of craze up to ~$200 when it was rumored to contain ETH to 'conserve stock' while everyone else was selling theirs as fast as they could to get rid of it and then sold SAMPLES of it for 5 pound (again, almost $10 i think). they are also always ~5-10 bucks more expensive on literally everything and the worst place to buy stuff for us customers with condescending staff, impossible to communicate customer service which just copy/pastes standard answers that do not fit the situation at all, no samples on most orders (no matter how large, every other retailer i have ever ordered from never goes under ~one per hundred bucks), cheapest possible delivery service, etc.
    i hope you at least think about that a little in the back of your head when you deal with them again.
    i'm not looking to get rid of the bottle over a little price difference or anything (its obv not even worth the effort lol), stuff like this just really irks me in general because there is nothing you can do about it (whos gonna sue someone in a different country over a 40-50 buck item?) and this industry in general has enough BSN muscletech bpi bull****.

    i hope you can at least see where i am coming from thought-wise even if you might not share my point of view entirely or there might be more language barrier problems/slight cultural differences than i might realize.
    regards


    e: i'm sorry if i sound rude somewhere here, my english is generally good enough to express the straight thoughts that i have in weird grammar sentences, but i do not really know how the phrases i use come off to a native speaker, so if it sounds like i'm being a real dick it's pretty much not intentional.
    I definitely see where you are coming from. I do not understand why the retailer did not provide the proper ingredients or writeup on the website. I have emailed them asking for that to be fixed. Let me know if you have any additional or follow up questions after reading my post above this one
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    see, this is exactly why we love you <3
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    Hey OP I just wanted to say thanks for bringing this up. It got Natty to answer a ton of good questions and should be a good resource for when others want to know more about this version of Norcodrene.

    Hope everything was cleared up.
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    A month later and I still haven't found any feedback on this international version anywhere online.

    Maybe selling it only on one UK website is the reason for this - and even that distributor decided to charge now 28% more for this INTL version compared to normal (US) version.

    Why charge higher a version with 0 feedback - usually you do opposite when new version is released to boost new sales and get feedback.

    It's your sales that are lowered cause of such decisions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahh123 View Post
    A month later and I still haven't found any feedback on this international version anywhere online.

    Maybe selling it only on one UK website is the reason for this - and even that distributor decided to charge now 28% more for this INTL version compared to normal (US) version.

    Why charge higher a version with 0 feedback - usually you do opposite when new version is released to boost new sales and get feedback.

    It's your sales that are lowered cause of such decisions.
    The international version just came out and is only available overseas. Give it some time and regular norco is still available elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahh123 View Post
    A month later and I still haven't found any feedback on this international version anywhere online.

    Maybe selling it only on one UK website is the reason for this - and even that distributor decided to charge now 28% more for this INTL version compared to normal (US) version.

    Why charge higher a version with 0 feedback - usually you do opposite when new version is released to boost new sales and get feedback.

    It's your sales that are lowered cause of such decisions.
    We do not decide what prices retailers offer our products at. The product is still new so it will take a while for reviews to be put up.
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    i obviously can't give a full review yet, nor can anyone else unless they bought it asap and ran it at 3caps/day

    i guess i can give a sort of preliminary mini-review (without a full version ever, reasons below).


    the bad:
    i cannot take 2 caps at once ever without feeling horribly overstimulated (in a very weird way, too, its hard to describe. i can take 300mg caffeine + 50mg dmaa, but not 2 caps norco.)

    the ugly:
    it gives me 'brainfog', which is not surprising since you mentioned that boldine is a vasodilator. i bought the formula because i was looking for a less side-effect prone yohimbine extract to help me raise my blood pressure slightly (i am always borderline low bp since basically birth, don't really know why exactly. it is what the doctors call idiopathic, aka its too expensive to look for a real reason unless it gets really bad) so i still feel a bit ****ed over by predator.
    i'm fine with norcoclaurine on its own, so maybe it works differently, not as strong, what do i know. this will not be an issue for most people though i'd assume. it might also stem from the geranyoxythingy or the nomilin or a combination of things. uncut did not have a negative effect in that regard so it sorta rules out amentoflavone (at least in the presence of a little yohimbe), adding 5mg straight yohimbine hcl to 1 cap norco did not cancel it out, nor did 100mg of caffeine. so unless i find something to fix that for me (which is unlikely, any ideas are appreciated however) i will not buy another bottle and never would have bought this one.


    btw, predator... do not sell the US version apparently (i ordered US and got INTL as i mentioned), but reduced the price on the falsely advertised product and instead of replacing the listing, they just added the intl without any comment on anything whatsoever. i would advise to no one to ever do business with that site... shady ****s. order from gigasnutrition or whoever else has it.

    and last but not least,
    the good:

    it probably makes dieting ridiculously easy if you can continue to take it. i always had the 'i could eat if i wanted but dont really need to' feeling until ~1pm if i take a cap in the morning, and until ~5-7pm if i take a second one around midday. this is also rather hard to describe, but i have not had this kind of appetite suppression from any straight stimulant or fatburner (and i have tried a lot). especially since i normally want to eat a whole fridge when other stims start wearing off, i dont have this with the norco at all tho - normal lunch/supper it is. so if one wants to adopt an intermittent fasting kind of diet, this is probably perfect since this effect started on day 2 or 3 or sth like that.

    i have, however, no idea how it really affects fat loss or anything beyond the one week mark, or training because i did not fancy dropping a load of iron on my head due to light-headedness. i tried some curls for teh pumpz, and it seems to be roughly on par with 1 scoop hemavol in that department, but take that with the saltiest grain of salt you can find because a) i really only tried it for the funnsies, it wasnt a real proper training session that would be worth mentioning, and b) my blood flow biochemistry stuff might be leaning in a very different direction than that of most people. i did lose 2mm off my abdominal caliper measuring in the week i took the norco but that will probably more be due water fluctuations than true fat loss. i mean, its a week and i didnt even train.

    so short summary:
    - probably not good for people with generally low BP, but that will not affect many people i guess
    - probably really really great for anyone who wants to diet, would rate it better than ECA or dmaa+caff for appetite management (its not really 'suppression' in the way we are used to if you ask me)
    - dont buy stuff you didnt research thoroughly
    - **** predator. dont do business with them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by iddqd View Post
    i obviously can't give a full review yet, nor can anyone else unless they bought it asap and ran it at 3caps/day

    i guess i can give a sort of preliminary mini-review (without a full version ever, reasons below).


    the bad:
    i cannot take 2 caps at once ever without feeling horribly overstimulated (in a very weird way, too, its hard to describe. i can take 300mg caffeine + 50mg dmaa, but not 2 caps norco.)

    the ugly:
    it gives me 'brainfog', which is not surprising since you mentioned that boldine is a vasodilator. i bought the formula because i was looking for a less side-effect prone yohimbine extract to help me raise my blood pressure slightly (i am always borderline low bp since basically birth, don't really know why exactly. it is what the doctors call idiopathic, aka its too expensive to look for a real reason unless it gets really bad) so i still feel a bit ****ed over by predator.
    i'm fine with norcoclaurine on its own, so maybe it works differently, not as strong, what do i know. this will not be an issue for most people though i'd assume. it might also stem from the geranyoxythingy or the nomilin or a combination of things. uncut did not have a negative effect in that regard so it sorta rules out amentoflavone (at least in the presence of a little yohimbe), adding 5mg straight yohimbine hcl to 1 cap norco did not cancel it out, nor did 100mg of caffeine. so unless i find something to fix that for me (which is unlikely, any ideas are appreciated however) i will not buy another bottle and never would have bought this one.


    btw, predator... do not sell the US version apparently (i ordered US and got INTL as i mentioned), but reduced the price on the falsely advertised product and instead of replacing the listing, they just added the intl without any comment on anything whatsoever. i would advise to no one to ever do business with that site... shady ****s. order from gigasnutrition or whoever else has it.

    and last but not least,
    the good:

    it probably makes dieting ridiculously easy if you can continue to take it. i always had the 'i could eat if i wanted but dont really need to' feeling until ~1pm if i take a cap in the morning, and until ~5-7pm if i take a second one around midday. this is also rather hard to describe, but i have not had this kind of appetite suppression from any straight stimulant or fatburner (and i have tried a lot). especially since i normally want to eat a whole fridge when other stims start wearing off, i dont have this with the norco at all tho - normal lunch/supper it is. so if one wants to adopt an intermittent fasting kind of diet, this is probably perfect since this effect started on day 2 or 3 or sth like that.

    i have, however, no idea how it really affects fat loss or anything beyond the one week mark, or training because i did not fancy dropping a load of iron on my head due to light-headedness. i tried some curls for teh pumpz, and it seems to be roughly on par with 1 scoop hemavol in that department, but take that with the saltiest grain of salt you can find because a) i really only tried it for the funnsies, it wasnt a real proper training session that would be worth mentioning, and b) my blood flow biochemistry stuff might be leaning in a very different direction than that of most people. i did lose 2mm off my abdominal caliper measuring in the week i took the norco but that will probably more be due water fluctuations than true fat loss. i mean, its a week and i didnt even train.

    so short summary:
    - probably not good for people with generally low BP, but that will not affect many people i guess
    - probably really really great for anyone who wants to diet, would rate it better than ECA or dmaa+caff for appetite management (its not really 'suppression' in the way we are used to if you ask me)
    - dont buy stuff you didnt research thoroughly
    - **** predator. dont do business with them.
    Yeah it was fishy to me why their INTL version is 28% more expensive and now we know why.

    Yet PES keeps giving them exclusive rights to EU only version of their products.
  

  
 

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