Mind Support Stack: Suggestions

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  1. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Mind Support Stack: Suggestions


    hey everyone!

    just looking for a little feedback. i've always been interested in nootropics and i've seen substances like PEA, sulbutiamine, piracetam, ALCAR being suggested here and there. however, i don't really know much about these compounds and would like to know more. i'm basically just searching for a starting stack to help improve concentration/focus, sharpness, and recall.

    i've taken phosphatidylserine (300-500mg ED) and am currently taking 1500mg acetyl l-carnitine ED in the morning before breakfast. i'm really clueless as to where to begin with any of this so any feedback is much appreciate as always

    if there are any suggested sources available, feel free to share. otherwise, i'll be googling the components of the proposed stack(s) formulated by you great people.


  2. If you're fairly new to nootropics then I'd propose this stack-

    -Piracetam
    -Choline Citrate
    -Sulbutiamine

    And then possibly
    -Tyrosine
    -Adaptogenic herb of your choice.

    As far as nootropic stacks go this would be a fairly inexpensive regimen. If you're looking to spend a bit more money then I could suggest you a few more exotic things.
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  3. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    If you're fairly new to nootropics then I'd propose this stack-

    -Piracetam
    -Choline Citrate
    -Sulbutiamine

    And then possibly
    -Tyrosine
    -Adaptogenic herb of your choice.

    As far as nootropic stacks go this would be a fairly inexpensive regimen. If you're looking to spend a bit more money then I could suggest you a few more exotic things.
    what would be the suggested starting doses as well as maximum dosages?

    I'm going with nutraplanet to purchase--good idea? I'm looking at the piracetam/choline citrate combo ATM and it looks like a good deal to me. throwing that together with the sulbutiamine+tyrosine and the price seems fairly reasonable. of course, i'm going with the smallest bulk powder amounts to see how it goes for me and assess it wholly as time passes. I imagine the bigger amounts of powder are more cost effective long-term.

  4. what would be the suggested starting doses as well as maximum dosages?
    That's tough to say. Nootropic dosing is very case sensitive, I myself am at the higher end of the spectrum and what may very well work for me might just give you horrible sides... or it might not be enough.

    For myself, If i was running the above stack it'd look something like;
    3000mg Piracetam/1000mg Choline Citrate/ 600-900mg Sulbutiamine- 3x Daily

    and then 2000mg Tyrosine upon waking.

    If this is your first time then I'd suggest building up slowly, you won't feel the optimum effects until at least 2 weeks in w/ Piracetam anyways so there is no need to rush.

    In your position I'd start with 500mg Piracetam x3 daily, and then dose the Choline after as needed. You'll know you'll need choline when you start to get a brain fog after taking the Piracetam, and then you should dose sparingly. A Choline to Racetam mg dose ratio can range anywhere from 1:2 to 1:10, as I said before its very case sensitive. I'd run with 500mg 3x daily for a few days and then begin to increase from there. The great thing about Piracetam is that it pretty much doesn't have an LD-50, if you take too much you'll just experience some unpleasant and fleeting side effects for a few hours.

    Once you become familiar with how Piracetam works for you then you can begin to adjust your dose. Play around with doses and you'll eventually find your "sweet spot." With nootropics more is not always better, the vast majority if not all operate on a Bell Curve in terms of optimum effects.

    With Sulbutiamine I'd start at ~300mg if you have never taken it before and then work your way up to ~900mg, once again depending on your sensitivity.

    And purchasing from Nutra is a good idea, they have very reasonable prices and bulk powders are ridiculously cheaper than encapsulated nootropics. If you are interested you can also check out my Pramiracetam log in my signature, over the course of two or so months I logged my experiences with quite a variety of nootropics.

  5. No one ever mentions this, but I heard that choline is also neccesary with high dose ALCAR.
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  6. No one ever mentions this, but I heard that choline is also neccesary with high dose ALCAR.
    Interesting... I've always heard that among its other benefits, ALCAR can be used as a choline source.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by kingdong View Post
    No one ever mentions this, but I heard that choline is also neccesary with high dose ALCAR.
    I have also seen this but honestly never quite understood the concept myself.

    Interestingly, I have focus/mood enhancement with both choline and alcar by themselves. Both are nice morning and preworkout supps as are all the suggestions so far in this thread. IMO nootropics are fun to use and fun to discuss

    OP, maybe a good place to start might be with FocusXT by SNS. It has choline, alcar, tyrosine, and caffeine. Then you can make adjustments with bulk powders on your own after you see how you do with the prop blend.

  8. The high doses could deplete choline levels in your brain, hence supplementing with it.

    Some get headaches when they take to much Piracetam or ALCAR.
  9. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Got my hands on Primaforce's Piracetam and Choline Citrate bulk powders today. Good deals for em, too. I decided to take them in combination with my phosphatidylserne and holy basil.

    Here's what my protocol looked like today:

    PS - 300mg morning w/food
    Holy Basil - 2 VCaps morning w/food (New Chapter brand 800mg extract from leaf)
    Piracetam - 500mg 3x/day w/food Choline Citrate - approx. 200-300mg 2x/day w/food

    Should i take the Choline Citrate with the Piracetam each time? What sort of effects should be expected and it what timeframe do they become more and more pronounced?

    I'm currently waiting on additional funds to dish out for some Tyrosine and Sulbutiamine.

  10. Here's what my protocol looked like today:

    PS - 300mg morning w/food
    Holy Basil - 2 VCaps morning w/food (New Chapter brand 800mg extract from leaf)
    Piracetam - 500mg 3x/day w/food Choline Citrate - approx. 200-300mg 2x/day w/food

    Should i take the Choline Citrate with the Piracetam each time? What sort of effects should be expected and it what timeframe do they become more and more pronounced?

    I'm currently waiting on additional funds to dish out for some Tyrosine and Sulbutiamine.
    First off ditch the tyrosine, you'll find the Sulbutiamine much more effective when you dial in your dose. And interesting choice with the Holy Basil. I've always found it effective for cold sores.

    It doesn't really matter if you take the Choline with the Piracetam or not. Personally I like to wait a couple minutes for the racetam and then decide if i need to take choline. From browsing on the Imminst forum's i've read excess choline can have counterproductive effects on cognition and dopamine- hence the waiting. If I happen to get a headache or feel out the loop after I take too much Piracetam then I'll just take choline and it'll set me proper again.

  11. Piracetam, Alcar and choline is all you need. I didn't notice anything special from sulbutamine. Choline is needed in roghly a 3 to 1 ratio with piracetam. Expect a 2 week loading phase for best results. Ui simply take 2-3 grams per day of piracetam and Alcar=golden.

  12. What were you dosing the Sulbutiamine at?

    And typical choline ratio's will range from 9:1 to 3:1. It very much depends on individual sensitivity.
  13. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    First off ditch the tyrosine, you'll find the Sulbutiamine much more effective when you dial in your dose. And interesting choice with the Holy Basil. I've always found it effective for cold sores.

    It doesn't really matter if you take the Choline with the Piracetam or not. Personally I like to wait a couple minutes for the racetam and then decide if i need to take choline. From browsing on the Imminst forum's i've read excess choline can have counterproductive effects on cognition and dopamine- hence the waiting. If I happen to get a headache or feel out the loop after I take too much Piracetam then I'll just take choline and it'll set me proper again.
    I'm glad I didn't buy the tyrosine yet. After I'm finished w/the Holy Basil, I'm thinking of either going with Ashwaganda or maybe Bacopa? I have a bottle of MST Cordygen 5 but I would prefer waiting until I am able to get back to the weights before I start using that again.

    Yesterday I tried 500mg 3x, today I'm gonna up the dose a bit. Probably close to 1000mg or 3/4 scoop. Let's take it from there and see how it goes. Just gotta go ahead and throw in some sulbutiamine and we'll be in business.

    On a side note, I want to say I experienced the headaches yest. but I am not able to know just yet if I can attribute them to the Piracetam as I felt much better after I ate. It may have just been a reaction to low blood sugar as I hadn't eaten in several hrs.

  14. I completely see how some might not think that tyrosine packs much of a punch. I'm very lucky in that I do respond well to tyrosine. Just some points to provide the opposite point of view:

    Tyrosine is RIDICULOUSLY cheap. You can experiment with it for under 10 bucks most of the time. If you like it, again it'll be cheap to stock up. If you don't, it's not like you wasted 30 or 40 bucks. Also, pretty much most of the preworkout pump/focus/stim mixes get their focus component from tyrosine.

    I'd bet that for the novice nootropic user, tyrosine is a good place to start. and in no way is that insinuating that ur piracetam/choline stack isn't a good place to either.

    Fellas,
    you guys seem like you're pretty experienced and in tune with no otropic effect. What are you thoughts on SamE mood enhancement. It sure makes me a happy camper at about 400 or 600mg (maybe just slightly less potent than the occasional xanax for fun comparison). The down side is that SamE is awful pricey too.

  15. I felt virtually nothing when dosing tyrosine, high and low.

    My wife loves Sam E for mood enhancement.

  16. I'm glad I didn't buy the tyrosine yet. After I'm finished w/the Holy Basil, I'm thinking of either going with Ashwaganda or maybe Bacopa?
    I've used bacopa within other products and I've been pretty impressed with it thus far. IMO its superior to ashwaganda for nootropic purposes, a lot of the literature behind it seems to focus around its cognitive enhancing properties.

    On a side note, I want to say I experienced the headaches yest. but I am not able to know just yet if I can attribute them to the Piracetam as I felt much better after I ate. It may have just been a reaction to low blood sugar as I hadn't eaten in several hrs.
    Low blood sugar is definitely a possibility; it won't be that hard for you to rule out though. Racetam headaches, from my own experience at least, take some time to get a feel for. Just try to pay attention to paradoxical effects; if it seems like it doing the opposite of what it should then you should administer choline or drop the dose. Nootropics are just hard to dose effectively and discern specific effects because they are so subjective to the user.

    I'd bet that for the novice nootropic user, tyrosine is a good place to start. and in no way is that insinuating that ur piracetam/choline stack isn't a good place to either.
    I like tyrosine but I use it more as a support supplement. From my own experience it has never packed a punch on its own. Although I'm also a non-responder to near everything unless its megadosed. I agree though; its cheap. Its just not the first thing on my list of priorities.
    Fellas,
    you guys seem like you're pretty experienced and in tune with no otropic effect. What are you thoughts on SamE mood enhancement. It sure makes me a happy camper at about 400 or 600mg (maybe just slightly less potent than the occasional xanax for fun comparison). The down side is that SamE is awful pricey too.
    I've never used it for the specific reason that it costs so much; but the scientific literature behind it is pretty authoritative. Unlike a lot of supplements; it works and is effective for depression, joint, liver function, and a lot of other positive benefits that a methyl donor can have.

  17. Thanks for the feedback fellas. Personally SamE gives me just a bit of "happy" where other nootropics give me a bit of "alert" in comparison.

    I actually dabbled with stacking SamE with preworkout stims and workouts were pretty good. I think it would be an awesome stacker before sporting events too... for example, it'd make pickup basketball more fun and golf less irritating

    Public, I agree completely that it's too pricey to use it regularly. It's fun for a few weeks every now and then but it's not THAT great that I would shell out that much case for it.

  18. Public....I don't know where you get the info that Choline is not needed with Piracetam when most literature says otherwise and since Piracetam accelerates the use of Choline in the Brain. I can say first hand that it doesn't work for me without the choline and I have experienced racetam headaches when dosing without choline or low amounts.

  19. Public....I don't know where you get the info that Choline is not needed with Piracetam when most literature says otherwise and since Piracetam accelerates the use of Choline in the Brain. I can say first hand that it doesn't work for me without the choline and I have experienced racetam headaches when dosing without choline or low amounts.
    I'm don't think I said that anywhere. What I was suggesting was to take Piracetam and then wait before dosing choline on the off chance that you take more than needed.

  20. I'm a big fan of CitiCholine a.k.a. cognizen

    Works great.

  21. Not to hijack the thread and maybe i didnt read enough but im involved in a job where memory is a must.

    Anything to increase memory retention? Mine is TERRIBLE, so far ive gotten Huperzine, Gingko, fish oils, i take various forms of L carnitine, Geranium. Anything else? I was eyeing Piracetam but the more i read about it the more im not sure its what im looking for.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns

  22. I'm a big fan of CitiCholine a.k.a. cognizen

    Works great.
    Have you noticed any perceived benefits compared to other choline sources? I'm in the market for a new choline source and I can't make up my mind between Alpha-GPC, Citicholine, or centrophenoxine.

    Anything to increase memory retention? Mine is TERRIBLE, so far ive gotten Huperzine, Gingko, fish oils, i take various forms of L carnitine, Geranium. Anything else? I was eyeing Piracetam but the more i read about it the more im not sure its what im looking for.
    Care to elaborate? From my own experience, Piracetam and its more powerful cousins are great for memory. I did a run of Pramiracetam for about two months; which is a much more potent analogue of Piracetam, and at times it felt like I had a photographic memory. The amount of information I could cram before a test and retain dumbfounded me.

    Personally I'd shy away from regular stimulant usage for helping memory (not that I am implying you do). You are above your game for a short period of time and then you crash and are worse than before. Most nootropics work through entirely different mechanisms to improve cognitive function. Once you cease dosage you just go back to normal.

  23. This is an excellent starting point:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ootropics.html
    Paging Dr. Banner. . .

  24. Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Have you noticed any perceived benefits compared to other choline sources? I'm in the market for a new choline source and I can't make up my mind between Alpha-GPC, Citicholine, or centrophenoxine.



    Care to elaborate? From my own experience, Piracetam and its more powerful cousins are great for memory. I did a run of Pramiracetam for about two months; which is a much more potent analogue of Piracetam, and at times it felt like I had a photographic memory. The amount of information I could cram before a test and retain dumbfounded me.

    Personally I'd shy away from regular stimulant usage for helping memory (not that I am implying you do). You are above your game for a short period of time and then you crash and are worse than before. Most nootropics work through entirely different mechanisms to improve cognitive function. Once you cease dosage you just go back to normal.

    I just wasnt to keen about how some people felt on it, air headed, spacey, in my line of work i cannot afford this, awareness is a must as well which is why i incorporate the geranium as it really seems to help with this. I might pick up some piracetam and choline n give it a go.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns

  25. I just wasnt to keen about how some people felt on it, air headed, spacey, in my line of work i cannot afford this, awareness is a must as well which is why i incorporate the geranium as it really seems to help with this. I might pick up some piracetam and choline n give it a go
    Side effects like that, in my experience, are very much dose related. Chances are that person took much and most likely didn't have the choline to back it up. Its a valid concern, especially if its going to effect your line of work. If you choose to pick some up I recommend doing what I told purebred, dose small and work your way up until you find your sweet spot.

  26. Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Have you noticed any perceived benefits compared to other choline sources? I'm in the market for a new choline source and I can't make up my mind between Alpha-GPC, Citicholine, or centrophenoxine.



    Care to elaborate? From my own experience, Piracetam and its more powerful cousins are great for memory. I did a run of Pramiracetam for about two months; which is a much more potent analogue of Piracetam, and at times it felt like I had a photographic memory. The amount of information I could cram before a test and retain dumbfounded me.

    Personally I'd shy away from regular stimulant usage for helping memory (not that I am implying you do). You are above your game for a short period of time and then you crash and are worse than before. Most nootropics work through entirely different mechanisms to improve cognitive function. Once you cease dosage you just go back to normal.
    Good question and for the record, Piracetam tastes like ass !!!

    I dig Citicholine/Cognizen because the dosage in small and compared to Alpha-gplc ( Alphasize by Cheminutra ) It delivers more, AlphGPC seems to just help me zone out with some focus but CitiC just gets me going, it's great and the price isn't to bad.....I can't handle regular Choline and If any remembers "Go" by Blackstar labs it made you go alright......to the crapper which is another reason why CitiC is great.

    The other one, Centrophenoxine I have no clue about.

    I still love PowerDrive by biotest, that stuff still to this day rocks.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I just wasnt to keen about how some people felt on it, air headed, spacey, in my line of work i cannot afford this, awareness is a must as well which is why i incorporate the geranium as it really seems to help with this. I might pick up some piracetam and choline n give it a go.
    Situational awareness is critical, been there done that
  28. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRoadTo View Post
    This is an excellent starting point:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ootropics.html
    Kudos for that informative post.

    Any suggestions on a reputable lion's mane supplement?

  29. I dig Citicholine/Cognizen because the dosage in small and compared to Alpha-gplc ( Alphasize by Cheminutra ) It delivers more, AlphGPC seems to just help me zone out with some focus but CitiC just gets me going, it's great and the price isn't to bad.....I can't handle regular Choline and If any remembers "Go" by Blackstar labs it made you go alright......to the crapper which is another reason why CitiC is great.

    The other one, Centrophenoxine I have no clue about.
    I know over at the ImmInst forums CDP Choline seems to be considered the best choice. I think Alpha-GPC is out the running, now I just need to choose between centrophenoxine (which I found a kick ass bulk source for) and Citicholine. Right now I'm leaning towards centrophenoxine because research points to its ability to remove lipofuscins from the nervous system, among others. I find its MoA very unique compared to the other two.

    Ugh... but then I find studies like this http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/12/1/39.short and I get all excited. Anyways, thanks for the input!

    Any suggestions on a reputable lion's mane supplement?
    Couldn't tell ya, I've forgotten all about lion's mane up until you mentioned it but it reminds me that I have always wanted to try it... Looks like its time to dig up some research studies...
  30. purebred
    purebred's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Couldn't tell ya, I've forgotten all about lion's mane up until you mentioned it but it reminds me that I have always wanted to try it... Looks like its time to dig up some research studies...
    Actually started doing some browsing this morning and found a reputable brand: Host Defense Lion's Mane. it seems the company's undivided focus is geared towards producing mushroom-based products. a specific body building dotcom website has it in stock and if i'm not able to find a store that carries it in my area i'm gonna have to go ahead with them.

    that being said, i've been trying to find across a solid suggestion for a lion's mane dosage but haven't found much as of yet.
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