Mind Support Stack: Suggestions

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    Mind Support Stack: Suggestions


    hey everyone!

    just looking for a little feedback. i've always been interested in nootropics and i've seen substances like PEA, sulbutiamine, piracetam, ALCAR being suggested here and there. however, i don't really know much about these compounds and would like to know more. i'm basically just searching for a starting stack to help improve concentration/focus, sharpness, and recall.

    i've taken phosphatidylserine (300-500mg ED) and am currently taking 1500mg acetyl l-carnitine ED in the morning before breakfast. i'm really clueless as to where to begin with any of this so any feedback is much appreciate as always

    if there are any suggested sources available, feel free to share. otherwise, i'll be googling the components of the proposed stack(s) formulated by you great people.

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    If you're fairly new to nootropics then I'd propose this stack-

    -Piracetam
    -Choline Citrate
    -Sulbutiamine

    And then possibly
    -Tyrosine
    -Adaptogenic herb of your choice.

    As far as nootropic stacks go this would be a fairly inexpensive regimen. If you're looking to spend a bit more money then I could suggest you a few more exotic things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    If you're fairly new to nootropics then I'd propose this stack-

    -Piracetam
    -Choline Citrate
    -Sulbutiamine

    And then possibly
    -Tyrosine
    -Adaptogenic herb of your choice.

    As far as nootropic stacks go this would be a fairly inexpensive regimen. If you're looking to spend a bit more money then I could suggest you a few more exotic things.
    what would be the suggested starting doses as well as maximum dosages?

    I'm going with nutraplanet to purchase--good idea? I'm looking at the piracetam/choline citrate combo ATM and it looks like a good deal to me. throwing that together with the sulbutiamine+tyrosine and the price seems fairly reasonable. of course, i'm going with the smallest bulk powder amounts to see how it goes for me and assess it wholly as time passes. I imagine the bigger amounts of powder are more cost effective long-term.
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    what would be the suggested starting doses as well as maximum dosages?
    That's tough to say. Nootropic dosing is very case sensitive, I myself am at the higher end of the spectrum and what may very well work for me might just give you horrible sides... or it might not be enough.

    For myself, If i was running the above stack it'd look something like;
    3000mg Piracetam/1000mg Choline Citrate/ 600-900mg Sulbutiamine- 3x Daily

    and then 2000mg Tyrosine upon waking.

    If this is your first time then I'd suggest building up slowly, you won't feel the optimum effects until at least 2 weeks in w/ Piracetam anyways so there is no need to rush.

    In your position I'd start with 500mg Piracetam x3 daily, and then dose the Choline after as needed. You'll know you'll need choline when you start to get a brain fog after taking the Piracetam, and then you should dose sparingly. A Choline to Racetam mg dose ratio can range anywhere from 1:2 to 1:10, as I said before its very case sensitive. I'd run with 500mg 3x daily for a few days and then begin to increase from there. The great thing about Piracetam is that it pretty much doesn't have an LD-50, if you take too much you'll just experience some unpleasant and fleeting side effects for a few hours.

    Once you become familiar with how Piracetam works for you then you can begin to adjust your dose. Play around with doses and you'll eventually find your "sweet spot." With nootropics more is not always better, the vast majority if not all operate on a Bell Curve in terms of optimum effects.

    With Sulbutiamine I'd start at ~300mg if you have never taken it before and then work your way up to ~900mg, once again depending on your sensitivity.

    And purchasing from Nutra is a good idea, they have very reasonable prices and bulk powders are ridiculously cheaper than encapsulated nootropics. If you are interested you can also check out my Pramiracetam log in my signature, over the course of two or so months I logged my experiences with quite a variety of nootropics.
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    No one ever mentions this, but I heard that choline is also neccesary with high dose ALCAR.
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    No one ever mentions this, but I heard that choline is also neccesary with high dose ALCAR.
    Interesting... I've always heard that among its other benefits, ALCAR can be used as a choline source.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingdong View Post
    No one ever mentions this, but I heard that choline is also neccesary with high dose ALCAR.
    I have also seen this but honestly never quite understood the concept myself.

    Interestingly, I have focus/mood enhancement with both choline and alcar by themselves. Both are nice morning and preworkout supps as are all the suggestions so far in this thread. IMO nootropics are fun to use and fun to discuss

    OP, maybe a good place to start might be with FocusXT by SNS. It has choline, alcar, tyrosine, and caffeine. Then you can make adjustments with bulk powders on your own after you see how you do with the prop blend.
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    The high doses could deplete choline levels in your brain, hence supplementing with it.

    Some get headaches when they take to much Piracetam or ALCAR.
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    Got my hands on Primaforce's Piracetam and Choline Citrate bulk powders today. Good deals for em, too. I decided to take them in combination with my phosphatidylserne and holy basil.

    Here's what my protocol looked like today:

    PS - 300mg morning w/food
    Holy Basil - 2 VCaps morning w/food (New Chapter brand 800mg extract from leaf)
    Piracetam - 500mg 3x/day w/food Choline Citrate - approx. 200-300mg 2x/day w/food

    Should i take the Choline Citrate with the Piracetam each time? What sort of effects should be expected and it what timeframe do they become more and more pronounced?

    I'm currently waiting on additional funds to dish out for some Tyrosine and Sulbutiamine.
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    Here's what my protocol looked like today:

    PS - 300mg morning w/food
    Holy Basil - 2 VCaps morning w/food (New Chapter brand 800mg extract from leaf)
    Piracetam - 500mg 3x/day w/food Choline Citrate - approx. 200-300mg 2x/day w/food

    Should i take the Choline Citrate with the Piracetam each time? What sort of effects should be expected and it what timeframe do they become more and more pronounced?

    I'm currently waiting on additional funds to dish out for some Tyrosine and Sulbutiamine.
    First off ditch the tyrosine, you'll find the Sulbutiamine much more effective when you dial in your dose. And interesting choice with the Holy Basil. I've always found it effective for cold sores.

    It doesn't really matter if you take the Choline with the Piracetam or not. Personally I like to wait a couple minutes for the racetam and then decide if i need to take choline. From browsing on the Imminst forum's i've read excess choline can have counterproductive effects on cognition and dopamine- hence the waiting. If I happen to get a headache or feel out the loop after I take too much Piracetam then I'll just take choline and it'll set me proper again.
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    Piracetam, Alcar and choline is all you need. I didn't notice anything special from sulbutamine. Choline is needed in roghly a 3 to 1 ratio with piracetam. Expect a 2 week loading phase for best results. Ui simply take 2-3 grams per day of piracetam and Alcar=golden.
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    What were you dosing the Sulbutiamine at?

    And typical choline ratio's will range from 9:1 to 3:1. It very much depends on individual sensitivity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    First off ditch the tyrosine, you'll find the Sulbutiamine much more effective when you dial in your dose. And interesting choice with the Holy Basil. I've always found it effective for cold sores.

    It doesn't really matter if you take the Choline with the Piracetam or not. Personally I like to wait a couple minutes for the racetam and then decide if i need to take choline. From browsing on the Imminst forum's i've read excess choline can have counterproductive effects on cognition and dopamine- hence the waiting. If I happen to get a headache or feel out the loop after I take too much Piracetam then I'll just take choline and it'll set me proper again.
    I'm glad I didn't buy the tyrosine yet. After I'm finished w/the Holy Basil, I'm thinking of either going with Ashwaganda or maybe Bacopa? I have a bottle of MST Cordygen 5 but I would prefer waiting until I am able to get back to the weights before I start using that again.

    Yesterday I tried 500mg 3x, today I'm gonna up the dose a bit. Probably close to 1000mg or 3/4 scoop. Let's take it from there and see how it goes. Just gotta go ahead and throw in some sulbutiamine and we'll be in business.

    On a side note, I want to say I experienced the headaches yest. but I am not able to know just yet if I can attribute them to the Piracetam as I felt much better after I ate. It may have just been a reaction to low blood sugar as I hadn't eaten in several hrs.
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    I completely see how some might not think that tyrosine packs much of a punch. I'm very lucky in that I do respond well to tyrosine. Just some points to provide the opposite point of view:

    Tyrosine is RIDICULOUSLY cheap. You can experiment with it for under 10 bucks most of the time. If you like it, again it'll be cheap to stock up. If you don't, it's not like you wasted 30 or 40 bucks. Also, pretty much most of the preworkout pump/focus/stim mixes get their focus component from tyrosine.

    I'd bet that for the novice nootropic user, tyrosine is a good place to start. and in no way is that insinuating that ur piracetam/choline stack isn't a good place to either.

    Fellas,
    you guys seem like you're pretty experienced and in tune with no otropic effect. What are you thoughts on SamE mood enhancement. It sure makes me a happy camper at about 400 or 600mg (maybe just slightly less potent than the occasional xanax for fun comparison). The down side is that SamE is awful pricey too.
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    I felt virtually nothing when dosing tyrosine, high and low.

    My wife loves Sam E for mood enhancement.
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    I'm glad I didn't buy the tyrosine yet. After I'm finished w/the Holy Basil, I'm thinking of either going with Ashwaganda or maybe Bacopa?
    I've used bacopa within other products and I've been pretty impressed with it thus far. IMO its superior to ashwaganda for nootropic purposes, a lot of the literature behind it seems to focus around its cognitive enhancing properties.

    On a side note, I want to say I experienced the headaches yest. but I am not able to know just yet if I can attribute them to the Piracetam as I felt much better after I ate. It may have just been a reaction to low blood sugar as I hadn't eaten in several hrs.
    Low blood sugar is definitely a possibility; it won't be that hard for you to rule out though. Racetam headaches, from my own experience at least, take some time to get a feel for. Just try to pay attention to paradoxical effects; if it seems like it doing the opposite of what it should then you should administer choline or drop the dose. Nootropics are just hard to dose effectively and discern specific effects because they are so subjective to the user.

    I'd bet that for the novice nootropic user, tyrosine is a good place to start. and in no way is that insinuating that ur piracetam/choline stack isn't a good place to either.
    I like tyrosine but I use it more as a support supplement. From my own experience it has never packed a punch on its own. Although I'm also a non-responder to near everything unless its megadosed. I agree though; its cheap. Its just not the first thing on my list of priorities.
    Fellas,
    you guys seem like you're pretty experienced and in tune with no otropic effect. What are you thoughts on SamE mood enhancement. It sure makes me a happy camper at about 400 or 600mg (maybe just slightly less potent than the occasional xanax for fun comparison). The down side is that SamE is awful pricey too.
    I've never used it for the specific reason that it costs so much; but the scientific literature behind it is pretty authoritative. Unlike a lot of supplements; it works and is effective for depression, joint, liver function, and a lot of other positive benefits that a methyl donor can have.
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    Thanks for the feedback fellas. Personally SamE gives me just a bit of "happy" where other nootropics give me a bit of "alert" in comparison.

    I actually dabbled with stacking SamE with preworkout stims and workouts were pretty good. I think it would be an awesome stacker before sporting events too... for example, it'd make pickup basketball more fun and golf less irritating

    Public, I agree completely that it's too pricey to use it regularly. It's fun for a few weeks every now and then but it's not THAT great that I would shell out that much case for it.
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    Public....I don't know where you get the info that Choline is not needed with Piracetam when most literature says otherwise and since Piracetam accelerates the use of Choline in the Brain. I can say first hand that it doesn't work for me without the choline and I have experienced racetam headaches when dosing without choline or low amounts.
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    Public....I don't know where you get the info that Choline is not needed with Piracetam when most literature says otherwise and since Piracetam accelerates the use of Choline in the Brain. I can say first hand that it doesn't work for me without the choline and I have experienced racetam headaches when dosing without choline or low amounts.
    I'm don't think I said that anywhere. What I was suggesting was to take Piracetam and then wait before dosing choline on the off chance that you take more than needed.
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    I'm a big fan of CitiCholine a.k.a. cognizen

    Works great.
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    Not to hijack the thread and maybe i didnt read enough but im involved in a job where memory is a must.

    Anything to increase memory retention? Mine is TERRIBLE, so far ive gotten Huperzine, Gingko, fish oils, i take various forms of L carnitine, Geranium. Anything else? I was eyeing Piracetam but the more i read about it the more im not sure its what im looking for.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
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    I'm a big fan of CitiCholine a.k.a. cognizen

    Works great.
    Have you noticed any perceived benefits compared to other choline sources? I'm in the market for a new choline source and I can't make up my mind between Alpha-GPC, Citicholine, or centrophenoxine.

    Anything to increase memory retention? Mine is TERRIBLE, so far ive gotten Huperzine, Gingko, fish oils, i take various forms of L carnitine, Geranium. Anything else? I was eyeing Piracetam but the more i read about it the more im not sure its what im looking for.
    Care to elaborate? From my own experience, Piracetam and its more powerful cousins are great for memory. I did a run of Pramiracetam for about two months; which is a much more potent analogue of Piracetam, and at times it felt like I had a photographic memory. The amount of information I could cram before a test and retain dumbfounded me.

    Personally I'd shy away from regular stimulant usage for helping memory (not that I am implying you do). You are above your game for a short period of time and then you crash and are worse than before. Most nootropics work through entirely different mechanisms to improve cognitive function. Once you cease dosage you just go back to normal.
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    This is an excellent starting point:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ootropics.html
    Paging Dr. Banner. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Have you noticed any perceived benefits compared to other choline sources? I'm in the market for a new choline source and I can't make up my mind between Alpha-GPC, Citicholine, or centrophenoxine.



    Care to elaborate? From my own experience, Piracetam and its more powerful cousins are great for memory. I did a run of Pramiracetam for about two months; which is a much more potent analogue of Piracetam, and at times it felt like I had a photographic memory. The amount of information I could cram before a test and retain dumbfounded me.

    Personally I'd shy away from regular stimulant usage for helping memory (not that I am implying you do). You are above your game for a short period of time and then you crash and are worse than before. Most nootropics work through entirely different mechanisms to improve cognitive function. Once you cease dosage you just go back to normal.

    I just wasnt to keen about how some people felt on it, air headed, spacey, in my line of work i cannot afford this, awareness is a must as well which is why i incorporate the geranium as it really seems to help with this. I might pick up some piracetam and choline n give it a go.
    E-Pharm Rep... PM me with any questions or concerns
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    I just wasnt to keen about how some people felt on it, air headed, spacey, in my line of work i cannot afford this, awareness is a must as well which is why i incorporate the geranium as it really seems to help with this. I might pick up some piracetam and choline n give it a go
    Side effects like that, in my experience, are very much dose related. Chances are that person took much and most likely didn't have the choline to back it up. Its a valid concern, especially if its going to effect your line of work. If you choose to pick some up I recommend doing what I told purebred, dose small and work your way up until you find your sweet spot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Have you noticed any perceived benefits compared to other choline sources? I'm in the market for a new choline source and I can't make up my mind between Alpha-GPC, Citicholine, or centrophenoxine.



    Care to elaborate? From my own experience, Piracetam and its more powerful cousins are great for memory. I did a run of Pramiracetam for about two months; which is a much more potent analogue of Piracetam, and at times it felt like I had a photographic memory. The amount of information I could cram before a test and retain dumbfounded me.

    Personally I'd shy away from regular stimulant usage for helping memory (not that I am implying you do). You are above your game for a short period of time and then you crash and are worse than before. Most nootropics work through entirely different mechanisms to improve cognitive function. Once you cease dosage you just go back to normal.
    Good question and for the record, Piracetam tastes like ass !!!

    I dig Citicholine/Cognizen because the dosage in small and compared to Alpha-gplc ( Alphasize by Cheminutra ) It delivers more, AlphGPC seems to just help me zone out with some focus but CitiC just gets me going, it's great and the price isn't to bad.....I can't handle regular Choline and If any remembers "Go" by Blackstar labs it made you go alright......to the crapper which is another reason why CitiC is great.

    The other one, Centrophenoxine I have no clue about.

    I still love PowerDrive by biotest, that stuff still to this day rocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I just wasnt to keen about how some people felt on it, air headed, spacey, in my line of work i cannot afford this, awareness is a must as well which is why i incorporate the geranium as it really seems to help with this. I might pick up some piracetam and choline n give it a go.
    Situational awareness is critical, been there done that
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRoadTo View Post
    This is an excellent starting point:

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...ootropics.html
    Kudos for that informative post.

    Any suggestions on a reputable lion's mane supplement?
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    I dig Citicholine/Cognizen because the dosage in small and compared to Alpha-gplc ( Alphasize by Cheminutra ) It delivers more, AlphGPC seems to just help me zone out with some focus but CitiC just gets me going, it's great and the price isn't to bad.....I can't handle regular Choline and If any remembers "Go" by Blackstar labs it made you go alright......to the crapper which is another reason why CitiC is great.

    The other one, Centrophenoxine I have no clue about.
    I know over at the ImmInst forums CDP Choline seems to be considered the best choice. I think Alpha-GPC is out the running, now I just need to choose between centrophenoxine (which I found a kick ass bulk source for) and Citicholine. Right now I'm leaning towards centrophenoxine because research points to its ability to remove lipofuscins from the nervous system, among others. I find its MoA very unique compared to the other two.

    Ugh... but then I find studies like this http://learnmem.cshlp.org/content/12/1/39.short and I get all excited. Anyways, thanks for the input!

    Any suggestions on a reputable lion's mane supplement?
    Couldn't tell ya, I've forgotten all about lion's mane up until you mentioned it but it reminds me that I have always wanted to try it... Looks like its time to dig up some research studies...
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Couldn't tell ya, I've forgotten all about lion's mane up until you mentioned it but it reminds me that I have always wanted to try it... Looks like its time to dig up some research studies...
    Actually started doing some browsing this morning and found a reputable brand: Host Defense Lion's Mane. it seems the company's undivided focus is geared towards producing mushroom-based products. a specific body building dotcom website has it in stock and if i'm not able to find a store that carries it in my area i'm gonna have to go ahead with them.

    that being said, i've been trying to find across a solid suggestion for a lion's mane dosage but haven't found much as of yet.
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    Nice find.

    Below are three studies I found off of wikipedia. The second study ran a dose of 1000mg 3x daily for 16 weeks and had noticeable results.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/mt5u3nr752036376/
    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758067
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    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    Nice find.

    Below are three studies I found off of wikipedia. The second study ran a dose of 1000mg 3x daily for 16 weeks and had noticeable results.

    http://www.springerlink.com/content/mt5u3nr752036376/
    http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...TRY=1&SRETRY=0
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758067
    Host Defense: 2 caps = 1g and there's a 30 day supply (dosing once a day). 3000mg 3x daily will run up a tab quick! I think the effects are a force to be reckoned with though.
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    ~UPDATE~

    I have been on the Pira/Choline stack for 5 days now. Been playing with the dosages a bit. However I choose to dose I always take them 3x daily. Just now I took approx 2.5g Piracetam and 1.5g Choline. I did the Piracetam alone for about 24 hours but did not like the headaches (which I perceived as the notorious racetam headaches) that stretched into the following day's morning. Therefore, Choline will always be something I take with my Pira as is usually suggested anyway. If I'm not mistake, there is a "loading period, so to speak, of approximately two weeks before noticeable effects can be experienced, correct? I will be upping my dosage to 1g Pira~3x daily with a dose of 500mg Choline each time. Therefore, I cannot truly update you all on much but as I continue to experiment, I have been researching quite a bit on different combos folks have had good experiences with. I currently have in my possession Lithium Orotate and Rhodiola Rosea. I have definitive plans of introducing Rhodiola Rosea to the stack once I finish my Holy Basil supply. I am in the process of trying to familiarize myself with Lithium Orotate as there doesn't seem to be much in-depth literature on it. In addition, the majority of the studies I've come across seem to be outdated. Any and all input from you folks will be and is much appreciated.

    On a sidenote, I have recently restarted taking my fish oil (Carlson's 3-4g/6 softgels ED) and managed to incorporate some of AppNut's Osteo-Sport. I liked the ingredient profile and decided it might just be a good idea to take it considering the fact my left shoulder and knees have been progressively paining me. I began experiencing a little under a month ago shoulder pain while doing the simplest of things as turning the steering wheel, pushing the ladder at work or even elevating my arm out in front of me and moving it towards my body. Stick your left arm out in front of you and move it to the right towards your body while keeping your arm straight: that's the movement I'm talking about that was giving me troubles. After doing some research and confirming with my dermatologist I discovered my joint pain (and recent onset of constant fatigue) is due to the isotretinoin regimen/Accutane I'm on for my acne. As a result, my doctor and I decided to lower the dosage from 40mg to 30mg ED with hopes the joint pain and fatigue subside. With that having been said, I will begin my new isotretinoin tonight as I ran out of my 40mg capsules yesterday and I have to say I sincerely feel the fish oil/Osteo-Sport combination has alleviated my joint pain. Call it coincidence but I call it circumstantial evidence.

    With regards to training, I have held off on training until further notice for a multitude of reasons but am looking into resuming Rippetoe ASAP. I'm pretty psyched to go back in for many reasons--one of them being Powerfull & Valerian Root. I got myself some Valerian Root Extract from Solgar and will be dosing that aloingside my Powerfull. My intentions are to attain the benefits of Valerian with it's benzodiazepine-like effects to help me fall asleep and let the Powerfull do the rest from there. I've been having a bit of trouble attaining restful, refreshing sleep and I know this will help. I will probably only be dosing Powerfull at night with 2 caps as 3 has left me too groggy in the past and I doubt 1 will have much effect. Can't think of anything else to report. If you read all this, thank you for putting in the time and interest.

    All the best!
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to purebred again.

    If you decide to run Lions Mane I would definitely be interested in hearing the results. As for myself, at the moment its too cost prohibitive.

    And you are correct about the loading period. It does take awhile for Piracetam to build up and have an effect. If you're interested, you might try searching over at the ImmInst forums for "attack dosing."

    As for the Lithium... I couldn't tell ya. I do know they give Lithium to help with bipolar disorder; however I think its MoA is still unknown. I'd tread carefully with that one... I haven't really heard much feedback about it. Looks like I'm adding another thing to my list of sh!t to research.

    Anyways, best of luck purebred and I look forward to more feedback as the weeks go by.
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    ~UPDATE~

    Have continued taking my Pira/Choline combination along with the rest of my mind support stack. I recently got some Vinpocetine and I plan on adding it to my stack in approximately one month. I'd like to get a feel for the stack I have now in order that I may accurately assess the effects of adding (and possibly removing) a component or two from the combination. As of this point, I believe it's fair to say I am still currently in the Pira/Choline "loading phase" so it's "effects" have not yet become as pronounced as they will come the next several weeks. However, I would like to make note of some of the effects I have been noticing the more time goes by that I take my Pira/Choline. Since I tend to be quite lazy about certain things, let's refer to the Piracetam/Choline Citrate combination as "P/CC" for the sake of saving time & energy.

    As I stated I would do, I raised the overall dosage of my P/CC regimen to 1g (i.e. one level scoop) and 500mg, respectively. I will attempt to explain what I experience as best as I can due to the fact I may not speak as eloquently or effectively as many of you gents on here whose posts I have followed (PublicEnemy being the first to pop into my head).

    To begin with, a heightened sense of alertness/awareness along with impressive memory (esp. short-term) have become progressively pronounced since having begun my regimen. Actions such as procrastinating or "leaving it to memory" or "leaving it for later" are not so negative anymore. To further elaborate, I can tell myself I'll do something later and I will actually follow through whereas I would normally tend to forget. An example of this was last night when I went to the movies with my girlfriend. As we were beginning to seat for the movie I remembered I needed to validate my parking ticket in order to not pay the $6 as opposed to the $1.50 I ended up paying (I'm a college student~every bit counts! ) I decided I would wait until the movie had ended to validate my ticket. I didn't actually remember after the movie ended, per se, but as we were passing by the validation area, it was as if I had *set* a task alert in my mind and as I was commencing to pass through the area the *task alert* went off.

    I've noticed P/CC seem to produce a mood-enhancing effect and my vocabulary has taken on an articulate, more elaborate form. I've missed about 3 semesters of schooling which has served as major mind degradation (sort of like "you lose it if you don't use it"). Upon 10-15 min. of P/CC ingestion I get into this hypnotic state of focus & become zoned in on the task at hand. My memory recall is phenomenal for the fact that I'm in such early stages of P/CC dosing. Therefore, "having the word on the tip of my tongue" doesn't last long. Music definitely seems to stimulate mentally a bit more than usual. Overall, I've experienced a greater than mild mind boost thus far. I feel as if I am experiencing an increase in brain synapsis (sp?). I can honestly say I expect all this to progressively improve from here on out--at least it's what I'm aiming for.

    I recently got a hold of some vinpocetine (10mg tablets). A significant of the research I've come across suggests starting at a lower dose (typically 5mg) in order to adequately and accurately assess one's response to the vinpocetine. Some of the reported side effects/physiological reactions are indigestion, nausea, dizziness, anxiety, facial flushing, insomnia, headache, drowsiness and dry mouth. Sounds pretty unpleasant so I'm considering cutting tabs in half with my pill cutter and taking 5 mg doses for about 10 days and then increasing the dose to 10mg.

    On a different non-nootropic note....

    I began experimenting at the beginning of this week with different combinations to improve my quality of sleep. In my arsenal, I have the following to toy with:

    Source Naturals Theanine Serene (Serving Size: 2 tabs)
    • L-Theanine (200 mg) to support relaxing brain wave activity
    • Taurine (500 mg)to ease tension
    • GABA (500 mg): the "calming neurotransmitter"
    • Magnesium [chelate] to support muscle and nerve relaxation (300 mg)
    • Holy Basil leaf extract (100mg - 5:1) + Relora® to gently soothe away the tension in the body


    In my possession as well I have Hyland's Calm Forte which is a homeopathic remedy consisting of:
    • Passiflora 1X Triple Strength - for restless or wakeful sleep from exhaustion
    • Avena Sativa 1X Double Strength - for stress, nervousness or nervous headache
    • Humulus Lupulus 1X Double Strength - for drowsiness with incomplete sleep
    • Chamomilla 2X (Chamomile) - for nervous irritability


    In addition, contained in the formula are the following biochemic phosphates for enhancing cellular function:
    Calcarea Phosphorica 3X HPUS, Ferrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Kali Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Natrum Phosphoricum 3X HPUS, Magnesia Phosphoricum 3X HPUS.
    I tend to take 2-3 small tablets about 30-45 min. before bed.

    Continuing with the contents of my "Emergency Sleep Stash" I have Source Naturals Peppermint Flavor Sublingual Melatonin (1 mg) I tend to use occasionally when I'm feeling restless and the likes. I've recently indulged in my newest additions to the stash: Solaray's 5-HTP (1 capsule containing 100mg w/ 25mg Vitamin B-6 + 200 mg Vitamin C) and Doctor's Best Best L-Tryptophan which contains 500 mg Ajinomoto L-Tryptophan 500 Mg. Ajinomoto-branded aminos seem to be making an appearance in the industry. Last night I was messing around on the TP site trying to see how much it'd be for some all-natural micro-filtrated WPI and noticed they have Ajinomoto BCAAs available for inclusion in the custom mixes...interesting. I don't know much about it for those who are interested but I'm always willing to learn so feel free to post any information you may come across onto this semi-log/thread I have going on

    One night I had try by starting off with a combination of one serving Theanine Serene paired with one cap of 5-HTP. Although I don't exactly recall now why I didn't really like it I do, however, know the following night (last night) was a complete success. I haven't slept that deep, experienced such pleasantly vivid dreams and woken up so refreshed, rejuvenated and alert with absolutely no grogginess or hangover-like feeling. Last night's combination consisted of 1 cap tryptophan (500 mg) and 2 caps 5-HTP.

    What I like about the nutritional profile of the 5-HTP product I have is the B-6. From what I read, this is a complimentary tryptophan component for tryptophan metabolism and conversion to serotonin. I think last night's run was a success due to the multi-pathway serotonin stimulation (as both 5-HTP and tryptophan both deal with serotonin levels).

    Tonight's run is based on 2 caps tryptophan (1g) and 2 tabs of Calm Forte (homeopathic).

    Quote Originally Posted by PublicEnemy View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to purebred again.

    If you decide to run Lions Mane I would definitely be interested in hearing the results. As for myself, at the moment its too cost prohibitive.

    And you are correct about the loading period. It does take awhile for Piracetam to build up and have an effect. If you're interested, you might try searching over at the ImmInst forums for "attack dosing."

    As for the Lithium... I couldn't tell ya. I do know they give Lithium to help with bipolar disorder; however I think its MoA is still unknown. I'd tread carefully with that one... I haven't really heard much feedback about it. Looks like I'm adding another thing to my list of sh!t to research.

    Anyways, best of luck purebred and I look forward to more feedback as the weeks go by.
    I appreciate the kind wishes PE. Your help and input has been much appreciated thus far. You are right concerning the safety issues with lithium. I'm not even thinking about opening the bottle until I have some solid research presented and available to convince me otherwise.

    I searched up your suggestion of "attack dosing" and it seems to me this is something that should have been done the first day of beginning my P/CC protocol, no?
    What do you think?
    Should I go ahead and commence one day of attack dosing?
    If so, how much of each component would be right in your mind considering my current dosages?

    I will most definitely be looking into Lion's Mane as the idea of having "more brains" sounds extremely enticing for someone who's lost so much of it with recreational use and ill self-treatment during experimental teen years If I do begin my LM (Lion's Mane) supplementation I will be taking 1 cap in the morning and 1 at night. I may have to be putting in an order once a month every month for 6 months or so as dropping one hundred some odd dollars on one product all at once seems a bit financially irresponsible, ballsy and ignorant of me. I will check a store in my area to see if they carry LM as I have checked with Vitamin Shoppe and they do not carry that particular mushroom. (FML; They carry virtually everything but that!)

    I will also be inquiring about Modafinil due to interest in future usage. I was reading a bit about it today on Wiki. It seems like it would suit my girl well, also. She wants to take Adderrall which I don't really feel too thrilled about as I am uncertain about it's chemically addictive properties.

    I'm going to be calling it a night. I will continue reporting back accordingly. Again, thank you all who are keeping up for your time even if you're not contributing!
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    Thanks for the compliment. I can definitely notice the articulateness in your post; I'm glad you seem to be enjoying the effects so far.

    For attack dosing... I certainly like the idea of dosing very high in the morning and then doing smaller, maintenance doses throughout the day. At your doses, I'd take 60% of you daily dose of noots first thing in the morning and then split up the remainder into three smaller ones. So 2g/1g P/CC, give her a couple of hours, and do 2-3 hour intervals afterwards with the remaining 1g/500mg P/CC.

    If decide to try it and don't like the way it makes you feel, ditch it. Nootropics are completely subjective for effective doses and regimens.

    I've used modafinil and IMO its superior to adderall. It's a much cleaner drug and the comedowns aren't nearly as horrendous as amphetamines. Be warned though, from my experience it does have abuse potential. I went through about 5 grams once in 7 days. The withdrawal afterwards was very similiar to an amphetamine psychosis, just not as debilitating. Overall I think its a good drug, but it still requires a bit of prudence and maturity (something I sometimes lack ) to use responsibly.

    Overall its looking pretty good. Keep up the nice work.
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    I can relate to the "music sounds better" effect. FocusXT does that to me as does tyrosine/alcar combo.

    I've taken Theanine Serine and it helped me to relax fantastically the first time I took it. Unfortunately, it never really helped at all after that first dose. I can't imagine building a tolerance to anything after 1 dose, so I'm sure there was some psychological component to my awkward response.

    I've dabbled with countless sleep supplements. Most of them work to improve sleep quality IF I'm in a phase of good sleep anyhow. Most of them DON'T work when i'm not sleeping well and need a remedy.

    If I had to choose one, tryptophan helps to fall asleep, to stay asleep, and it doesn't make me feel groggy in the morning. Most others either don't work at all or they "artificially" knock me out for just a few hours leaving me feeling even worse in the morning.
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    ~UPDATE~

    It's been quite some time since I've checked in. Frankly, all the notes I've taken this period of time I've been MIA seem redundant, at least to me anyways, so I'll post up a Cliff's Notes version.

    I've been fiddling quite a bit with sleep supps. I'd like to improve the quality of my sleep as well be able to fall asleep faster. To be quite honest, not much as delivered. Melatonin is great but I don't like messing with that too much. I got a hold of 1mg tabs which, in the event I feel the need to take, I consume in 1/2 doses (i.e. 500mcg melatonin at bedtime). I have a multitude of Powerfull sample packs as well as an unopened bottle. I finally decided to open up my bottle of Solgar's Valerian Root Extract I've had stashed away for at least a month. I've been so anxious to combine it with Powerfull as I've heard the synergistic effects are quite impressive.

    I must say: I was impressed.

    Last night I decided to begin my Powerfull+Valerian sleep combo trials. Solgar's formula provides a standardized Valerian extract (300 mg) per cap. Initially, I took 2 Powerfull caps + 1 Valerian cap and went about my business up until it was time for bed. From what I understand, it takes approximately 30 min. for Valerian's sedative properties to take effect. To be quite honest, I'm not sure if I just became impatient or if in fact an adequate amount of time had passed and I decided to take another cap but I do know that not long (approx. 20 min.) after my second oral administration of Valerian I began to feel similar effects to that of melatonin. I felt a mild drowsiness and muscle relaxation pronounce itself in a progressively steady manner. I was trying to get to bed early to hit the gym the following day (today) so I got off the phone with my lady at about 10 to midnight and the rest is history. This is my first encounter with Powerfull in combination with any other sleep remedy. In the past, I have fooled with Powerfull starting off at 3 caps, going down to 1 and eventually realizing 2 was the right dosage for me personally. I will do my utmost to continue report my experience with my PF+V combo. In fact, I am considering making a entirely separate log for it if enough folks are interested. Even if there isn't anyone interested I might anyhow

    I would like to give MST's ZMK a shot after, also in addition to Valerian, and see how that goes. ZMA is a good addition to any protocol but I like MST's formula with the added minerals and other goodies. I feel it is also quite cost effective considering what's being provided in the formula.

    Moving on....

    As expected, I have been continuing my P+CC protocol. Unfortunately, dosages have yet to be dialed in as I am still in the process of feeling it all out (that's what she said). I committed to the proposed attack dosing regimen (suggested by PE a few posts back) and things seemed to work out fine. I have fooled around with the CC dosing a bit doing 1:1 ratios and 1:2 ratios of P/CC, respectively. I will confess to not being as disciplined and adamant about taking my doses as scheduled. Some days I've only taken 1 dose of P+CC and other days I completely forget to take it. My mind has been on other things as of late but starting today I began my proposed routine once more. I'm taking 1.5g Pira + 800-1000mg CC as I am attempting to see if there are any noticeable effects at a higher dose.

    With regards to homeopathic remedies (at least Calm Forte) I won't be including them in my regimen anymore nor will Tryptophan be part of the picture either. I am under the impression 3-5g of Trypto will illicit a positive GH response so I may consider throwing it in the mix. If the rumor holds any water, 3-5g (i.e. 6-10 caps) in conjunction with a product like Powerfull may produce decent effects GH-wise. It's worth a shot until the bottle runs out to say the least.

    ALCAR (Acetyl L-Carnitine?) is something that has caught my attention recently. I have a full bottle of VS brand ALCAR and have yet to utilize it considering it needs to be taken on empty stomach - something I hate doing due to the fact that I like eating in the morning on top of the fact that I will be starting to train first thing in the mornings on an empty stomach. VS' ALCAR comes in 500mg caps and from the literature I've come across it seems 1.5g is a decent dose. I also gather it is a good idea to take ALCAR in combination with R-ALA as ALCAR tends to have a pro-oxidative effect. Truth?

    On another note, I have yet to purchase the Lion's Mane. It's about a 35 min. drive to where it's at. I'm wondering if the store owner is willing to work out some sort of deal where if I purchase say, 3 bottles, he may be willing shed a few bucks of each item purchased. It'd be nice considering I'm probably wasting more money in gas than I might if I just ordered it on-line.

    I am also finishing my bottle of AppNut's Osteo-Sport. I was experience joint pain in my left shoulder and my knees a couple months back. I believe it was due to the isotretinoin (which I am currently still taking) but I spoke with my doc and we lowered the dosage from 40mg to 30mg. My joint health seems to have improved as my pain has subsided tremendously. I imagine everything contributed to the restoration of my joints (900mg Curcumin, 3-4g fish oil, 3 caps Osteo-Sport & lowering my isotretinoin dosage) so I can't really say one thing alone helped me but the focal point is I feel much better.

    I am running out of my Holy Basil and quite frankly I'm actually kind of glad. Holy Basil was just one of those supplements I really didn't feel I was able to get much out of. I started taking Rhodiola Rosea and I believe that is far greater of an herb in terms of benefits.

    There's a bit more I'd like to share at the moment but I am pressed for time. It's good to be back on the ball again. I will mention today was my first day back and training. I didn't push myself too hard considering I'm fresh, so to speak, and I trained on an empty stomach for the first time ever.

    Today's workout consisted of:
    3x5 squats (+2 warm-up sets)
    3x6 BW pull-ups
    3x8 BW dips

    It took me about an hr to complete but I still felt a bit fatigued. Dosed 1.5g Pira+1g CC pre-WO and I may consider adding in some Glyco-Peak (carbs) to my IntraBolic and see if this levels me out. If I go back to my old routine (Rippetoe) I feel I may not be able to go through with it considering it would take me approximately 1.5 hrs to finish training. As always, suggestions are welcomed.

    I appreciate your time if you're reading and stay safe everyone.
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    ~UPDATE~
    Checking in so check it out.

    To begin with, morning workouts are a no-go for moi'. Twice is enough for me when compared the rest of my workouts I have gone into after a nice, solid meal. I'm liking going into the gym during the late afternoon/early evening transition. I feel more energized and overall workout experience is enhanced when compared to a fasted morning workout. To each their own, I suppose!

    I want to mention two pre-WO products I have recently tried a sample of and I think are worth looking into a bit more (personally):

    • MuscleMeds Code Red (Blue Raspberry)
    • ALRI WTF Pump'd (Fruit Punch)


    I'm not as certain about the latter as I am about the first. I like the ingredient profile of Code Red considering it contains a bit more GlycoCarn than Pre-Surge Unleashed, if I'm not mistaken, which I highly suggest you try if you haven't already. The taste of both is good, namely, ALRI's pre-WO. I will be trying out Fruit Punch flavored Code Red as well as ALRI's WTF Citrus flavor sometime soon as I was pretty impressed with their Fruit Punch. However, I felt Code Red was much more effective.

    I have been inconsistent with my Pira/CC protocol. I have not dosed in close to a week and a half and was consuming sparingly during the past several weeks. I wonder if it will be like starting from scratch if I were to commence my P/CC stack once again seeing how school resumed and I'm sure I could benefit from the supplementation. I wish my financial situation would lighten up so I could go ahead and get some sulbutiamine from NP. I have run out of Holy Basil and Osteo-Sport. Holy Basil will not be something I intend to purchase in the future. I did not notice much with regards to stress management nor anything else for that matter. I will be upping my Rhodiola Rosea dosage to 1cap 2x/daily as I am under the impression a high dose of RR (in one sitting?) can produce a bit of a sedative effect. Pre-WO will definitely be one of the times I dose it (if I can remember to take it LOL). I have added a bit to my Mind Support Protocol:

    • Gotu Kola (2 CAPS = 870mg (stem & leaf)
    • Inositol powder (approx. 1/2 tsp aiming for around 3g)
    • Bacopa (1 CAP = 100/100mg leaf extract & leaf, respectively)
    • (new combination) Prolab Caffeine + Source Naturals Theanine Serene


    The last addition I mentioned is a bit of an experiment I'm conducting starring: myself, the lab rat I am aware L-Theanine is occurs naturally in Green Tea and have noticed when taking a product containing caffeine and L-Theanine (AEN PreSurge Unleashed or any product containing Green Tea) that I am able to increase the caffeine intake without sacrificing mental clarity and/or focus. In addition, I do not experience any sort of negative side effect such as jitters, irritability, etc.

    Today I took 100mg of caffeine w/ one serving of Theanine Serine and it worked quite well in terms of focus. Only downside was 1.5 hrs into it my stomach began rumbling since I hadn't eaten breakfast (serious no-no for me).

    I came across something @ my workplace called INM®-176 which is a patented extract from that of Angelica Root which is supposedly used to enhance cognitive function. I'm interested in doing some more research regarding this.

    This is the product I came across containing it: http://www.q-o-l.com/cat_cognitive.html

    Here's one study I was able to pull up doing a Google search:
    A Three Month Placebo-Controlled Clinical Trial of INM 176 in the Old Aged Subjects with Memory Impairment.

    Kim JH, Koh SK, Koh HJ, Kwon YA, Kim SH, Kim JG, Kim TE, Park JW, Seo MY, Song YR, Lee I, Kim DK.

    Department of Psychiatry, Samsung Medical Center, Sungkyunkwan University School of Medicine, Seoul, Korea.
    Center for Clinical Research, Samsung Biomedical Research Institute, Seoul, Korea.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVES:
    We examined the effects of INM 176 (K-1107) compared with placebo on the cognitive functions of 92 old aged subjects with cognitive impairment. METHODS: This was a prospective, 12 week, double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial. The elderly who achieved a score of less than 25 points on the K-MMSE or showed a high risk of Alzheimer's disease from the 7-Minute Neurocognitive Screening Battery were considered to have objective impairment and were selected as subjects for this study. The subjects were randomized to placebo or INM 176 group. The outcome measures were from the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-cognitive subscale (ADAS-Cog), the Instrumental Activities of Daily Living (IADL) and the Korean Geriatric Depression Scale (KGDS) and two kinds of computerized priming tests. After setting the total error score in the Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale-Cognitive section (ADAS-cog) as the repeated measurement factor, an analysis of variance of the combined factor design was done between the placebo and INM 176 group. RESULTS: The interaction effect of time (pre- and post- trial) and group (placebo and INM 176 group) was significant in the analysis of the ADAS-cog's total error score. The INM 176 group's total error score in the ADAS-cog decreased significantly (p<0.01), whereas the placebo group showed a slight increase. The mean changes in IADL and GDS from baseline scores favored in the INM 176 group than in the placebo group. Outcome changes of ADAS-cog, IADL, KGDS scores during the 12 week clinical trail of INM 176 and placebo demonstrated favorable responses in the INM176 administered group. CONCLUSIONS: This is a preliminary clinical trial result of INM176 as a memory pill. Based on these results, INM176 may be a candidate molecule for the improvement of cognitive functions, including memory. Further clinical trial should demonstrate its efficacy.
    Also found this abstract but was unable to view further information regarding the conclusion of the study:
    Protection against β-amyloid peptide-induced memory impairment with long-term administration of extract of Angelica gigas or decursinol in mice

    Ji-Jing Yana, 1, Do-Hoon Kimb, 1, Yoo-Sun Moonc, Jun-Sub Junga, Eun-Mi Ahnd, Nam-In Baekd and Dong-Keun SongCorresponding Author Contact Information, a, Corresponding Author Contact Information, E-mail The Corresponding Author

    a Department of Pharmacology, College of Medicine, Institute of Natural Medicine, Hallym University, Chunchon, Kangwon-Do, 200-702, South Korea

    b Department of Psychiatry, College of Medicine, Institute of Natural Medicine, Hallym University, Chunchon, Kangwon-Do, 200-702, South Korea

    c Department of Family Medicine, College of Medicine, Institute of Natural Medicine, Hallym University, Chunchon, Kangwon-Do, 200-702, South Korea

    d Graduate School of Biotechnology and Plant Metabolism Research Center, Kyung Hee University, Yongin, Kyunggi-Do, 449-701, South Korea
    Accepted 11 July 2003.
    Available online 2 September 2003.

    Abstract

    We investigated the effect of long-term oral administration of ethanolic extract of Angelica gigas Nakai (Umbelliferae) (EAG) or decursinol, a coumarin isolated from A. gigas, on β-amyloid peptide 1–42 (Aβ1–42)-induced memory impairment in mice. Mice were allowed free access to drinking water (control) or water containing different concentrations of EAG. After 4 weeks, Aβ1–42 (410 pmol) was administered via intracerebroventricular injection. Pretreatment of mice with EAG (0.1%) for 4 weeks significantly blocked the Aβ1–42-induced impairment in passive avoidance performance. Next, mice were fed with chow mixed with various doses of decursinol for 4 weeks before intracerebroventricular injection of Aβ1–42 (410 pmol). Pretreatment of mice with decursinol (0.001%, 0.002%, and 0.004%) for 4 weeks significantly attenuated the Aβ1–42-induced impairment in passive avoidance performance. Decursinol (0.004%) also significantly blunted the Aβ1–42-induced decrease in alternation behavior (spatial working memory) in the Y-maze test without change in general locomotor activity. These findings suggest that EAG or decursinol may have preventive effect against memory impairment related with Aβ of Alzheimer's disease.
    I believe the research is close to a decade old and I wasn't able to find anything on PubMed. On another note, I recently switched back to Carlson's fish oil as Source Naturals softgels were noticeably bigger and harder to get down. I still have a portion of the bottle left as a matter of fact. Workouts are going well. I am not as consistent as I like but I am managing on average 2 workouts a week consist of squats, pull-ups and dips. Squats have been consistently going up (5lb. increments) and so have pull-up and dip reps. I'm looking into HST (Hypertrophy Specific Training) and I will be commencing this soon once I've familiarized myself with how to go about the program.

    I have began my Powerfull+Valerian trials and I must say I am very impressed with the quality of sleep I am achieving. I respond well to approx. 600mg of the root extract (2 CAPS) and 1-2 Powerfull CAPS. If I'm going to be sleeping in I tend to take two but I do well with just one. I have cycled between using this combination, the occasional 3-5g Tryptophan, and for the other times, about 250-500mcg of sublingual melatonin. For tonight's experimental trial using Comatose by ALRI Comatose.

    I appreciate your time if you're reading and stay safe everyone. More updates coming soon.
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