Flushing Receptor Sites
- 08-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Flushing Receptor Sites
Is there any way to speed up the "wash out period" for chemicals such as phenibut? I try and do 1 month on and 2 weeks off. Which is what my doctor recommends. My tolerance doesn't seem to go down much at all after the wash out period is over. Any help would be greatly apreciated.
- 08-12-2009, 02:22 PM
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Phenibut is a GABA agonist. You can try two things, neither of which I am going to necessarily recommend but which should work. Firstly, you could consume a competing GABA agonist with selective affinity for the receptor but a shorter half-life. The only one I can think of is THC which is the active component in marijuana. Secondly, you could try a GABA antagonist, which should increase the number of GABA receptors, making you more susceptible to GABA agonists. All benzodiazopens are GABA antagonists, such as xanax or klonopin.
- 08-12-2009, 04:33 PM
Hmmm...thanks for the quick response. I have quite a bit of klonopin that I might use during the wash out phase. Thanks!
Any other suggestions would be helpful
08-12-2009, 08:45 PM
- 5'9" 184 lbs.
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Sure no problem. Good luck.
09-13-2009, 09:28 AM
Picamilon is a safer bet but no where near as effective: it'll be of some benefit. Throw in theanine and you should be less anxious for a longer 'wash-out'.
Personally no way would I use phenibut 1 month on. Really a 2 month off is needed.
The problem with this stuff is there's no real safe supplement/OTC "wash-out'" method. With stims is an adrenal fatigue set-up.
What are you using phenibut for? A bodybuilder would use it for sleep to promote GH. There's a lot of supplements that will do this. If its to overcome anxiety I'd strongly question whether your physcians advice is sound and I'd look at non-supp methods to achieve this - there are alot of them.
Frankly I'd ditch the doc. If you've got anxiety issues phenibut isn't the way to go.
(quite a few typos above)
09-19-2009, 01:03 PM
Yeah, I used extreme amounts of eca every day for a couple years (10 years ago). After I stopped I started getting the most insane panic attacks I've ever heard of. Full-on loss of vision, paralysis, etc. It was nearly like a seizure in some cases. Couldn't drive etc. Doctor at the time told me my CNS is completely out of wack and I could be on benzo's for the rest of my life because 3 years later it hadn't gotten any better. I was on a heavy dose of Xanax and then switched to Klonopin for the last five years or so for the longer half life. Right now I'm on 4mg a day of Klonopin. These dosages don't make me feel tired or sluggish. Just normal. I decided to give phenibut a try a year or so ago and fell in love. It not only wipes out the anxiety, but gives you an incredibly euphoric feeling at the right dose along with being a great anti-depressant. It never interupts my workout schedule since I go in the morning and take it when I get out of the gym. My doc didn't know I was taking it and I finally told her to see what she thought. She researched it and found it to be quite safe. She was just concerned about the tolerance and addiction. She said if I was going to use it, make sure and take off one to two weeks for every month that I'm using it. I'm currently "washing out" right now. No fun
10-07-2009, 12:30 PM
dont you think this is somewhat retarded way of thinking?
if you need benzo's rest of your life and you found something that is working,,,why are you stopping it and feeling like ****?
also were you having tolerance issue? did it stop working? in that case thats troublesome but my point is youve been on benzos for 5 years high dose! what difference does phenibut can make? shes treating it like its even more dangerous and addicitve than xany
10-10-2009, 01:11 PM
Given your last response there are two options here:
A. Get a referral.
B. The alternative is to cut and print this response and give it her
ECA induced anxiety
1. ECA should have been a staged withdrawl or resumed once there were problems and then gradually cut. Just to repeat that - you stopped taking ECA (your decision) but you went to the physician when there were problems. They should have told you to resume and cut the dosages gradually. The risks of ECA, mainly blood pressure, should have been monitored and managed throughout this period. Caffeine is not addictive (you might disagree but technically thats correct), obviously asprin will not but there could be a dependency in ephedrine (not clear).
2. Your physicians are probably wrong on the CNS 'messed up', although there is a complex interaction which I don't think is understood (not sure). Ephedrine could cause neuro-degeneration long term but it is far from clear if it is capable of doing that. Caffeine will not cause neuro-degeneration. A 'couple of year' isn't long enough in any case. ECA is will increase the risk of heart problems - thats why ephedrine fat-burners were banned. You have an adverse anxiety response.
If benzos were going to be used they should have been phazed in according to the problems you encountered. Benzos are well known for dependence. Sedation might suggest over dosage possibly.
The physician should have only used benzos for the hard transition from ECA, if at all. You should then have used buspirone - highly effective and no problems of dependence.
You can still switch from phenibut to buspirone and you should try it.
However, you also need to explore why the panic attacks were triggered and continued. You will need a referral to do that. In other words why did you have such an adverse response to dropping ECA? Again ECA should not cause neuro-degeneration, so you need a very clear explanation. BTW check out your cortisol response.
Finally I'd look at cutting the buspirone. It is a better solution than phenibut because it will enable you to gradually cut it out for ever. You could start using adaptogens with that day in mind. Although keep in mind even the best will not give anything like a quick fix, they are not an alternative but they will give some support and depending on how you respond.
Good luck - but again there is no good reason why you can't make a full recovery long term IMO.
10-10-2009, 05:23 PM
What might have happened is your physician has confused long term amphetamine abusers with your ECA usage. There are clear biochemical differences. Amphetamines do cause neuro-degeneracy which is dangerous, meths would I presume. By comparison ephedrine doesn't, or if it does its not yet identified (not severe).
This has been an interesting thread and I'm sorry to hear of your trouble, but does show how incompetent practioners can be. The case was handled okay but certainly ain't perfect and those imperfections have a heavy price in quality of life. I presume she has nice mannerisms.
10-10-2009, 06:03 PM
Benzos were used because its an extreme case. It would be frontline.
It certainly raises questions IMO.
The phenibut was a good call by her - phenibut has insane tolerance. Generally though a physician is cautious about anything they can't have control over. There are reasons for that, e.g. 'cause they can't identify abuse easily.
10-17-2009, 10:42 AM
10-19-2009, 10:27 AM
Hmm... that could be right. I'll check it and post back in a few days.
10-20-2009, 05:14 AM
Okay its GABA A agonist.
CC had a point though. I suspect that phenibut is an antogonist - its unlikely an agonist would be sold OTC but I could be wrong. It would explain the rapid tolerance to phenibut.
CCs point wouldn't work because of the dependance that the benzos would generate (you can't just switch them on and off). Its a good point though and would probably work with busperione. However at this point doing benzos, busperione and phenibut!! doesn't sound very sensible at all
I suspect CC just got them the wrong way round. Its a good point to all the adrengic receptor super stim tolerant (don't ask me to explain the agonist here, I ain't gonna say).
10-20-2009, 08:45 PM
Sorry, haven't been on in a while. Klonopin and other Benzo's work on Gaba-b. It actually says on some of the bottles "neuro-active GABA" ALL of it crosses the BBB and makes everything in the world more enjoyable, feel good. Pretty addicting if you ask me. My panic attacks were beyond severe (more like seizures). I went through the ringer trying all different kinds of meds to let me just function normally. I almost crashed cars etc. Bad. I had all kinds of tests done and they concluded (multiple doctors) that my CNS was severely screwed up from the ECA abuse. I used A LOT everyday for a long time. young and dumb. This was 9 years ago. Since everytmie they tried to taper me back off benzo's I'd have more gnarly attacks. They decided a long half life benzo like Klonopin would be best to let me live a normal life. Every possible treatment was tried from behavioral techniques to acupuncture. I'm fine with it. I can take 4-6mg of Klonopin a day and feel normal with normal energy levels. Gym 6 days a week, you name it. About a year ago I found Phenibut and fell in love just for recreational purposes. My doctor researched it and said it was okay, just wanted me to lower the dose and wash out every month. It actually works synergistically with Klonopin (said Dsade I think). I try not to drink anymore and it takes the place of it. Phenibut also works on GABA-b. Yes, I can't even believe the ****s legal. Take enough and you'd think you were loaded on Heroin (not that I'd know). It's VERY close in structure to GHB. Kind of a derivative. That's how people explain the feeling. I love it and don't have a problem with it except for the tolerance. That's all. If I left anything out just ask. I didn't want this to turn into an advice thread about benzo's and treating panic attacks. I'm quite the expert on that after dealing with this every day for almost a decade and have figured out what works and doesn't. Just wondering if anyone had any way to "flush out" faster. Thanks guys.
10-20-2009, 08:54 PM
And I truly appreciate your advice but Buspirone was one of the least effective treatments I tried out of all of 'em and takes nearly two weeks to work from what i remember. I had a panel of doctors...neuro, psychiatrists, you name it. Once again what you guys never picked up on is I don't use the Phenibut to treat my anxiety. The Klonopin does that just fine. It def adds to the effect though. Which I like. It helps out with the old habits of being an alchy. BTW...crazychemist is hooked now too. Sorry CC : ) **** is awesome. i know I left out a lot of details before but that's the situation. Not trying to get off Benzos. Practically saved my life, in multiple ways.
10-21-2009, 05:01 AM
The reason for this is that long term use of this stuff carries serious side-effects over time and you should have checks accordingly. I suppose you know about them but I'd make sure I knew about all the other pharmacological routes.
You must have had it put to you that one view is that benzos arn't for long term use, precisely because of this, and other stuff should be used. Switch to a long half is the best option in this case then.
Okay ECA is neuro-toxic - something new. I mean you can take caffeine till you eyes pop out and whilst it will cause cardio problems and you'll have zip energy once stopped, its not toxic.
Reasonably certain on GABA A, otherwise a mainstream physicians handbook would be wrong, not that it makes any difference.
If it were me I'd CBT, support structure, busperione augment and use the best of the augmentations to allow a GABA agonist exit. Thats just me though.
10-21-2009, 05:09 AM
If alchy=alcohol then benzos are route 1 treatment, that is in fact what they are (supposedly) really good at. You see the withdrawl can be quite similar and if overlaid against ECA could explain things. If the benzos are being used as replacement and there's a risk of 'old habits' then sure benzos it is long term. You might want to look at nootropics in that case, recommend citicoline and perhaps piracetam. Neuro-protective stuff basically ALCAR wouldn't hurt.
Thanks for the posts and good luck!
10-21-2009, 03:14 PM
Yeah, I hear ya. It's a complicated situation. Just one I'm used to I guess. I was prescribed Klonopin along time ago because of the VERY long half life (36 hours for my dose) second to Valium (2 days). If you do decide to taper it's a hell of a lot easier than withdrawling from "the crack cocaine of benzo's" Xanax. I can miss a full day and not even notice it 'cause my plasma levels are still up. And yes, the only downfallto me is the withdrawls from benzos can kill you quite easily.
10-22-2009, 12:21 PM
10-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Matthius, A quick fix is actually has been pretty crucial in my treatment. In the work that I do and have done, I can't just take off a couple weeks and to tell you the truth, even if I was in the hospital, two weeks of on and off panic attacks scares the living **** out of me. It's hard to explain. Imagine when someone has jumped out from behind a door and scared the living **** out of you. That insane rush of adrenalinethat makes you feel like your heart has stopped? Imagine that feeling lasting for 5-10 minutes. I don't care how many people say "just tell yourself, it's just a panic attack and there's nothng REALLY wrong with you". Everytime it happens you are POSITIVE that you are dying. Whether it's your 5th or 100th attack. It never changes. I will talk to my doctor the next time I see her about a transition into something like Buspirone. Who knows. I'm open to whatever. Sh*t, I even have a script for Deprenyl as a possible treatment. I'm one of those extreme cases. A guinea pig if you will. Later guys
10-24-2009, 05:27 PM
Well, I take that back. I don't think I'll be talking to the doc about buspar. Just started reading up on it again and remembered why it was so inneffective.
You've got to remember, my situation is quite severe. Thanks thoughPRESCRIBED FOR: Buspirone is indicated for the management of anxiety disorders or for the short-term relief of the symptoms of anxiety. Buspirone is especially effective in persons with generalized anxiety of a limited or moderate degree. It is not very effective in persons with severe anxiety, panic disorders, or obsessive-compulsive disorders.
10-25-2009, 02:05 PM
Its a good point that it ain't frontline, although part of the difficulty is the dependance that benzos generate.
Okay the idea is that you can augment it against ssris, which are a good route in panic disorders. The local physician couldn't do make that assessment but could prescribe once its authorized. Together the two should be able to give you the strength of a benzo. Long term you could then look to cut the Buspar. No matter how 'weak' you think it is in conjunction of ssri it should be very powerful. For long term health reasons its worth looking into and precisely because of that you will find the practioners happy to look at this option. However you have mentioned there are other factors involved and ssris will not deal with that, but they are effective against a straight panic disorder.
10-27-2009, 06:06 PM
Anyway its been a good thread. Thanks and good luck.
10-27-2009, 10:39 PM
Yeah, I'm actually on Pristiq right now. A new class of SSRI's. Aka SNRI they boost your Norep levels as well. I don't think it helps but it keeps down the fat levels haha. You have to set timers to remember to eat. Kills all hunger. Even though it boosts norepinephrine, it doesn't increase anxiety at all which I find hard to understand. Anyway...like I said, if it's out there I've tried it. Did I mention I've had seizures as well from head trauma etc., so my doc really doesn't want to take me off klonopin. It's also a anti-seizure med.
10-28-2009, 08:16 AM
Very interesting. Surprised actually. SNRIs can cause problems, bad side effects. This stuff is very new, presume its improved on the old stuff.
Surprised you're augmenting an SNRI with a benzo... very surprised. I take it you tried classic ssri. I would have thought high dose SSRI would be just the ticket here.
Anyway you've made the point this is an exceptionally tough case.
10-28-2009, 11:56 AM
Yeah, not trying to make any points. Just let you know what's goin' on. This SNRI is BRAND new. I almost feel guinea pig status. It's been on the market since January. It has unbelievable reviews. Like 80% user approval rate compared to like 30% for Prozac, Zoloft and only takes a couple days to kick in. I can't say it helps much but I'll keep trying it. I've had no sides exept for a lot more energy and severe appetite loss. Which can be expected with elevated Nor. Yeah, been through almost all SSRI's. Even some MAOI's. Deprenyl was kinda fun with PEA until I almost got Seratonin syndrome lol. It's kinda funny. No one knows I'm even taking all this **** or loaded on Klonopinhalf the time. If you didn't know me and read this it would prob seem like I'm a mental case. I really don't like pumping my body with all these random drugs but have to do what I have to do to live a normal life. I run a couple cycles a year and everyone says the combination is a recipe for disaster but I've never had any issues or sides. No sides even on all those meds. IDK...kinda interesting
10-28-2009, 01:12 PM
Okay I understand the serotonin reuptake outstrips the norephinephrine reuptake 10 to 1. Thats why it doesn't produce anxiety. The purer form will give less sides. Makes sense.
10-28-2009, 02:53 PM
Yeah, that does make sense. It's funny 'cause you know the NRI is working from the total loss of appetite and all but no anxiety. Kinda cool I guess. Especially if cutting. Most people that start it lose between 10-15 lbs. (sometimes 20) the first month without even trying.
12-26-2009, 08:18 PM
- 5'11" 240 lbs.
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Hey h22 it's been about 2 months since you posted.. wondering if your still raving about phenibut or it's affects have weaned off? I have heavy experience with this stuff and I say stay away. I don't think there's a thing as a flush out period with this. I've used it in low doses with breaks, high doses with breaks and never felt the same after each use. I almost felt as if there was a permanent down regulation. I tried to find out the same thing as you. To make the receptors somehow more sensitive. I came up with some reports on KAVA but kava's effects were mild and not the kind of feeling I needed to achieve even at potent amounts. I was never fully successful and believe phenibut is not something to mess with. I feel worse overall ever since touching phenibut. It was the greatest thing ever at first but that was at the beginning, I think if you are having success with benzo's why would you add something else? We have to deal with some reality. I think much safer alternatives are l-theanine and picamilon.
ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68
WHAT has science offered?
12-27-2009, 09:49 AM
Its a good thread.
Theanine is a very good move. Picamilon I use it but I don't feel much effect. Partly its because I take mega-Bs all the time so the synthetic niacin makes zip difference.
You could try 5-10g loads of GABA.
As I keep I would go for Buspar - they'll happily give you a script and attempt to use it as an exit route for benzos. Even if it doesn't work you haven't lost anything because Buspar ain't a problem.
12-27-2009, 01:42 PM
- 5'11" 240 lbs.
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[QUOTE=matthias7;2250357]Its a good thread.
Theanine is a very good move. Picamilon I use it but I don't feel much effect. QUOTE]
I find suntheanine works well when taking regularly 100mg-200mg a couple times a day. Picamilon is interesting because it can be subtle in low dose but the right amount is quite euphoric but impairing. I wasn't getting much results from it so I upped the dose. I took 500mg or so at once. Can't remember the exact dose. Within a hour my sense of awareness was heightened greatly. It was mild paranoa. I was kind of in a daze. Everything looked different, felt like time slowed down which was really cool cause that's what alcohol does. Great loss of anxiety too. I didn't have no side effects when I came down though like with phenibut. I didn't touch it after that and that was well over 2 years ago. I plan to try it again but a better quality brand. Quality is everything. Don't think the brand I got was good stuff. If you get pharm quality the amounts they show in the studies to work should.
ôLord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life"- John 6:68
WHAT has science offered?
02-16-2010, 12:53 PM
Hey guys. I totally forgot about this thread. Took a few months off of phenibut and just got another 500g about two weeks ago. I'm loving being back on. Fand law, I felt the same exact way before about the permanant down reg but I think my dosage of klonopin has something to do with it because I have def have down reg big time. a few grams worked as good as 25 grams . Once again...I'm not planning on going off benzos anytime soon. While on phenibut I can cut my dose in half which is pretty sick. Several docs family practs, psychs etc said I might have to stay on Benzos for the rest of my life which is alright with me 'cause I've had no side effects. in 9 years even at a mega dose of 4-6mg. The normal dose is 1.5 mg per day. I take 4-6. I've tried pretty much every other treatment out there. Supps and pharms.
02-16-2010, 12:56 PM
I've tried all nootropics to with almost no effect. L-theanine etc didn't do anything for me even in high dosages.
02-16-2010, 01:08 PM
5HTP? Would need to be careful of the interactions.
02-16-2010, 04:25 PM
Yep..St. Johns...Every supp that has any possible mental effect. 5HTP, Bacopa, Theanine, all the racetams etc. Nothing in any dosage has an effect on me...I don't get it...or maybe I just am used to really strong meds
02-16-2010, 04:42 PM
not really its the GABA pathway and only phenibut makes a real impact. Well GHB did.
I take it you didn't follow up on Buspar? ... Buspurione if I remember is the active compound.
02-17-2010, 01:41 AM
02-17-2010, 10:17 AM
I think you've got to do whats right for you. Firstly I do understand in this situation its hell if the script is wrong. Also I understand there can be difficult in challenging someone who you respect (and I don't BTW).I asked my doctor if there is any Rx remotely close to phenibut and she said "unfortunatly there isn't" She knows it's the only thing that we have tried that reduces my need for benzos or SSRI's or SNRI's. She said it's fine that I take it. "You are just going to increase your tolerance though". I completely stopped taking Prestiq which is the best anti depressant on the market. Used it for six months with no benefit.
In summary, the way the law stands, you are in a position of considerable authority (which you are not aware of) - use it to get what is right for you.
1. Your practioner has made a readily demonstrable false statement. She also cannot stop you taking phenibut BTW and will have to keep the benzo prescription. If she wants her insurance premiums intact she has no other option (she'll understand what that means).
There is an anti-spasm drug that is basically a stronger version of phenibut, chemically it is phenibut. Its called Baclofen. The company wanted it as an anti-convulsant but instead they got FDA approval for involuntary muscle movements. You're practioner couldn't prescribe it to you but to say there is nothing like phenibut isn't true at all.
2. Buspar is a better GABA agonist than phenibut, it might even be in generic. Sure it ain't a benzo - but to say its useless is unwise and very untruthful. It has a gold plated safety profile, which is why its attractive.
I am not saying this is the only option but is a recognized way forward.
I am concerned you are so dependent on someone because I question their professionalism. Basically you're current scripts are not enough and you are making up the short fall yourself.
You should request a referal and AT LEAST try Buspar - it is far less harmful than phenibut and has no dependency. Even if it didn't work what have you got to lose? You are trying to switch dependency on an OTC drug with an appropriate script which is very safe: the benzo has shortcomings.
The situation at present is going into 25g per day phenibut dependency then going into washout. The idea in this situation is to stabilize on a regular dose of something that can't cause such quick tolerance. At least if you (hypothetically) cycled Buspar you wouldn't get strong withdrawls. At one point you were augmenting quite alot of stuff when in fact Buspar is readily stacked - thats what it is known for. Benzo SNRI augmentation isn't common and I suspect a specialist gave you that script.
The practioner DOES NOT WANT to augment anything else because augmentation isn't something they are able to readily prescibe. It will need a referral. In fact she may not have the authority to augment. She is happy for you to do your own thing because that ISN'T HER RESPONSIBILITY its yours. So you take the responsibility if something went wrong in washout.
Your practitioner has a job which they get paid good money for - if they screw you can take action. However if they do not offer an optimal service then thats not called "screwing up". I disagree but thats the way the system works I'm afraid.
I personally think using upwards of 25g of phenibut per day and then going to wash out is questionable because again the washout phaze carries health risks. You have to construct and manage your own tapers - what if something went wrong? Any specialist is likely to agree and it is THEIR RESPONSIBILTY to help you here if you request that help. You only need to hand her a note to be added to your medical record that you wanted other options and were concerned about washout - then she would have to act because not acting would be negligent. Obviously if she didn't append it to the medical record - which you can enforce - it wouldn't count.
At least if you didn't quit phenibut you could find a way of reducing the 25g to washout drop.
To date you have just been sold a partial truth - phenibut has a chemical very similar to baclofen, but due to FDA approval you can't get a script for it unless you've involuntary muscle movements. I am not happy with your practioner.
I feel they should make a referral and they are taking the easy road out.
At the very least make sure the responsibility if firmly with her:
1. Check your medical record. Has your practitioner recorded your phenibut usage and dosages? If not BE CONCERNED because they are passing liability onto you. They will argue you never told them if something went wrong.
2. Make sure you have your phenibut regime IN PRINT in your medical record, that includes the 25g stuff and the tapers.
3. Make sure your washout phaze is described IN PRINT in your record.
4. If you request anything make sure it is IN PRINT and in the medical record.
5. Make sure you have it IN PRINT you requested Buspar in medical record.
6. Make sure phenibut is recorded as a GABA agonist with dependency in your medical record.
7. Make sure this happens by checking your medical record. If you've handed your physician a piece of paper saying "for medical record" and it doesn't appear on your file - be concerned.
What you are doing is risky. You are making her clearly aware of her responsibility.
You are being professional and using your position of authority. You are not dependent on her, she is dependent on a professional service to you. If fails in that duty the medical record will make her accountability clear.
You will now get a very much more proactive response from you practitioner.
I've said everything I can say on this. Its over to you. If you want to neg me - do it. If you want admin to neg me - do it. I think there is an injustice here thats all.
Oh this is my last medical post - its 'cause your a friend.
My hobby is muscle building: fantastic medical benefits BTW recommend it to anyone.
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