T-boosting stack

[350zTT]

Hey guys, quick question! What do you think of stacking t-force with thermolife's t-bol? Maybe adding in some I3C to the mix too? Thanks

[custom]

I'm not really familiar with T-Bol, but Fadogia and IC3 seem to work well together as evidenced by MAN's BluePrint.

[dinoiii]

Very honest answer Matt!

I am a fan of the two, but I am a fan too of I3C dosing that runs pretty high in weight-based dosing. (equates to about 200mg per 100 lbs. body weight for those that are going to go there).

As for T-Bol; I have heard good things though have no actual data nor have I tried the product myself to date. The zinc tally in both T-Force and T-Bol should be monitored accordingly to avoid potential overdose of this trace element.

Chronic use of both wouldn't be well advised, but again my dosing recommendations have remained static with Fadogia already limiting intake from the T-Force and extending your supplementation supply and cost-efficiency with either the 5-on, 2-off regimen most favored by me and adopted by others as it does adapt well to most people's work weeks (Mon-Fri and "Weekend Holidays"). Alternatively, I have postulated use of a 3-on, 1-off regimen, but it gets more complex for people to maintain compliance with due to its non-consistent nature each week.

Anectdotally (though I have not adequately looked at the two products in appropriate 3rd party manner)....Most athletes will be well supplied with zinc at 15-25mg per day, but extreme sports of the endurance variety may actually extend to as high as 50mg. Keep in mind that the zinc orotate salt is used in Primal Male and due to the sheer size of the orotic acid moeity, it keeps zinc levels at bay, so my anticipation that you'll see significant interaction is very low.

A good protocol may be to use:

3 doses T-Bol daily (as I prefer max dosing of the divanil x 4 weeks with 2 off)
3 doses T-Force daily (5-on, 2-off pattern x 6 weeks with 2 off)
I3C dose adjusted per bodyweight as discussed above

* Keep in mind I am NOT recommending this protocol for everyone as the "average" lifter will NOT be an appropriate fit for this stack in my estimation. If you question whether or not you are an "average" lifter or an "extreme" lifter - please assume that you ain't all that!!!!



D_

[andrew732]

Very honest answer Matt!

I am a fan of the two, but I am a fan too of I3C dosing that runs pretty high in weight-based dosing. (equates to about 200mg per 100 lbs. body weight for those that are going to go there).

As for T-Bol; I have heard good things though have no actual data nor have I tried the product myself to date. The zinc tally in both T-Force and T-Bol should be monitored accordingly to avoid potential overdose of this trace element.

Chronic use of both wouldn't be well advised, but again my dosing recommendations have remained static with Fadogia already limiting intake from the T-Force and extending your supplementation supply and cost-efficiency with either the 5-on, 2-off regimen most favored by me and adopted by others as it does adapt well to most people's work weeks (Mon-Fri and "Weekend Holidays"). Alternatively, I have postulated use of a 3-on, 1-off regimen, but it gets more complex for people to maintain compliance with due to its non-consistent nature each week.

Anectdotally (though I have not adequately looked at the two products in appropriate 3rd party manner)....Most athletes will be well supplied with zinc at 15-25mg per day, but extreme sports of the endurance variety may actually extend to as high as 50mg. Keep in mind that the zinc orotate salt is used in Primal Male and due to the sheer size of the orotic acid moeity, it keeps zinc levels at bay, so my anticipation that you'll see significant interaction is very low.

A good protocol may be to use:

3 doses T-Bol daily (as I prefer max dosing of the divanil x 4 weeks with 2 off)
3 doses T-Force daily (5-on, 2-off pattern x 6 weeks with 2 off)
I3C dose adjusted per bodyweight as discussed above

* Keep in mind I am NOT recommending this protocol for everyone as the "average" lifter will NOT be an appropriate fit for this stack in my estimation. If you question whether or not you are an "average" lifter or an "extreme" lifter - please assume that you ain't all that!!!!



D_

Any reason in particular you have a dosing protocol for divanil?

[dinoiii]

Yes, actually I do! There were reps involved with a Divanil product that attempted to contest my thoughts on bb.com and interestingly enough had no data to back up the contrary, but there is a study that shows Divanil to also play the role of an AI. Couple an AI with an SHBG binding capacity and you have a recipie for significant negative feedback (even on the "test booster/NON-PH" cycle).

D_

[350zTT]

Do you have any thoughts on DHEA in such products as dermacrine? or products containing testofen (fenugreek)?

[andrew732]

Yes, actually I do! There were reps involved with a Divanil product that attempted to contest my thoughts on bb.com and interestingly enough had no data to back up the contrary, but there is a study that shows Divanil to also play the role of an AI. Couple an AI with an SHBG binding capacity and you have a recipie for significant negative feedback (even on the "test booster/NON-PH" cycle).

D_

So it acts a bit differently to aromasin?

[andrew732]

Do you have any thoughts on DHEA in such products as dermacrine? or products containing testofen (fenugreek)?

Both me and Dr.Houser are not fans of DHEA, especially at your age bro, an AI over it any day.

[custom]

I'm not really familiar with T-Bol, but Fadogia and IC3 seem to work well together as evidenced by MAN's BluePrint.

Of course I meant Primal Male.

[dinoiii]

Do you have any thoughts on DHEA in such products as dermacrine? or products containing testofen (fenugreek)?

Both me and Dr.Houser are not fans of DHEA, especially at your age bro, an AI over it any day.

DHEA depends on the integrity of an individual's adrenal glands, but for the most part...no I do not believe people should get caught up in the hype and for good reason with a predominant portion coverting through estrogenic channels.

There is a study I posted on my bodyblog over at bb.com on concurrent therapy with tamoxifen and DHEA and DHEA actually eliminated ANY benefit from anti-estrogen activity of the SERM.

From an HRT standpoint...possible benefit, but again I would encourage checking adrenal rather than gonadal integrity and in that case, I feel pregnenlone supplementation to be superior anyway.

So it acts a bit differently to aromasin?

Essentially, in part - YES!

Exemestane is an irreversible, steroidal aromatase inactivator, structurally related to the natural substrate androstenedione which we all came to know back in the 90s. It acts as a false substrate for the aromatase enzyme, and is processed to an intermediate that binds irreversibly to the active site of the enzyme causing its inactivation, an effect also known as "suicide inhibition." Still, I am unaware of SHBG-binding attributed to Aromasin. If anyone could actually suggest exemestane to exhibit such activity in a controlled study, I'd certainly be interested.



D_

[andrew732]

DHEA depends on the integrity of an individual's adrenal glands, but for the most part...no I do not believe people should get caught up in the hype and for good reason with a predominant portion coverting through estrogenic channels.

There is a study I posted on my bodyblog over at bb.com on concurrent therapy with tamoxifen and DHEA and DHEA actually eliminated ANY benefit from anti-estrogen activity of the SERM.

From an HRT standpoint...possible benefit, but again I would encourage checking adrenal rather than gonadal integrity and in that case, I feel pregnenlone supplementation to be superior anyway.




Essentially, in part - YES!

Exemestane is an irreversible, steroidal aromatase inactivator, structurally related to the natural substrate androstenedione which we all came to know back in the 90s. It acts as a false substrate for the aromatase enzyme, and is processed to an intermediate that binds irreversibly to the active site of the enzyme causing its inactivation, an effect also known as "suicide inhibition." Still, I am unaware of SHBG-binding attributed to Aromasin. If anyone could actually suggest exemestane to exhibit such activity in a controlled study, I'd certainly be interested.



D_

I agree DHEA is a neurosteroid that should only be used if one has LOW levels of it and have low adrenals. I know I study that aromasin had many pro's including the binding of SHBG which would be ideal during pct, since SERM's increase SHBG's.

[jgraves31]

Curious to hear Dr. Houser's thoughts on testofen as well. Thanks!

[dinoiii]

...I know I study that aromasin had many pro's including the binding of SHBG which would be ideal during pct, since SERM's increase SHBG's.

Please post study (minimally, citation) with reference to SHBG please.

Curious to hear Dr. Houser's thoughts on testofen as well. Thanks!

While the data looks relatively promising, I would consider it to be in its relative infancy with lack of inclusion of INDEPENDENTLY-run trials.

The increments in free test seem almost surreal and I am actually kind of embarassed to see report of them as a result. Now, I do NOT have independent access to levels, but anecdotally have tried the compound to find, if not anything, an unmistakable increase in libido - though how this translates to body comp would be of certain debate.


D_

[andrew732]

Please post study (minimally, citation) with reference to SHBG please.




While the data looks relatively promising, I would consider it to be in its relative infancy with lack of inclusion of INDEPENDENTLY-run trials.

The increments in free test seem almost surreal and I am actually kind of embarassed to see report of them as a result. Now, I do NOT have independent access to levels, but anecdotally have tried the compound to find, if not anything, an unmistakable increase in libido - though how this translates to body comp would be of certain debate.


D_

Here is one Dr. Houser, I found a couple from somewhat reliable sources, It is touted that aromasin can be used as a Total testosterone booster since it prevents SHBG binding, stacks well with Clomid.
"ABSTRACT FROM JOURNAL OF CLINICAL ENDOCRONOLOGY AND METABOLISM

Suppression of estrogen, via estrogen receptor or aromatase blockade, is being investigated in the treatment of different conditions. Exemestane (Aromasin) is a potent and selective irreversible aromatase inhibitor. To characterize its suppression of estrogen and its pharmacokinetic (PK) properties in males, healthy eugonadal subjects were recruited. In a cross-over study, 12 were randomly assigned to 25 and 50 mg exemestane daily, orally, for 10 d with a 14-d washout period. Blood was withdrawn before and 24 h after the last dose of each treatment period. A PK study was performed (n = 10) using a 25-mg dose.

RESULTS :

The 25- and 50-mg doses of daily exemestane had comparable effects in suppressing circulating estrogen concentrations, with 38 ± 24% (mean ± SD; P = 0.002 vs. baseline) and 32 ± 29% (P = 0.008) decreases in estradiol concentrations, 71 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) and 74 ± 12% (P < 0.0001) decreases in estrone concentrations, and 45 ± 27% (P = 0.004) and 51 ± 20% (P = 0.02)

BUT THERE'S MORE

There was an increase in circulating testosterone concentrations after both 25 mg (60 ± 58%; P = 0.001) and 50 mg (56 ± 48%; P = 0.003) exemestane. Androstenedione concentrations were increased as well after 25 mg (32 ± 36%; P = 0.004) and 50 mg (47 ± 59%; P = 0.052) exemestane, respectively (Fig. 1Go and Table 2Go).

SHBG concentrations were decreased by 21 ± 7% (P = 0.0003) and 19 ± 39% (P = 0.18) at 25 and 50 mg exemestane, respectively.

Free testosterone concentrations were increased by 117 ± 74% (P = 0.0001) and 154 ± 95% (P < 0.0001) at both doses, due to the decrease in SHBG and the increase in total testosterone.

THE ICING ON THE CAKE !

There were no changes in circulating serum triglycerides, cholesterol, or LDL or HDL cholesterol concentrations with either dose of exemestane."

[andrew732]

Do you think 2g of Divanil is overkill?

[BBB]

What is the difference between exemestane and epistane?

[andrew732]

What is the difference between exemestane and epistane?

BIG difference, epistane WILL shut you down. Post usage of exemestane, one's testosterone levels will be higher than when they using it for at least 2 weeks.

[dinoiii]

Do you think 2g of Divanil is overkill?

HA! Not in a world of 5%!!!



D_

[andrew732]

HA! Not in a world of 5%!!!



D_

LOL, so I have read, good thing I know people who can MAKE 90% extract of divanil, it looks white not brown...

[AZMIDLYF]

LOL, so I have read, good thing I know people who can MAKE 90% extract of divanil, it looks white not brown...

Is this a private source or accessable by anyone?