tforce in pct?

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    tforce in pct?


    is tforce in pct ok? im in my 4th week of pct, and i want to add tforce into the mix. thanks

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    I usually advise against it as overuse or overdosing can cause negative effects on LH, which on PCT could delay your system's recovery.
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    well how long should i wait then? i think im pretty much recovered and im only using 3 caps a day. im 6'2 and 240lbs so im takin the min dose. ive only been on it for 2 days so i can stop till i know for sure.

    found some studies tho...

    J Ethnopharmacol. 2008 Jan 17;115(2):288-92. Epub 2007 Oct 9.
    Related Articles, Links

    Effects of oral administration of aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis (Schweinf. Ex Hiern) stem on some testicular function indices of male rats.

    Yakubu MT, Akanji MA, Oladiji AT.

    Medicinal Plants Research Laboratory, Department of Biochemistry, University of Ilorin, P.M.B. 1515 Ilorin, Nigeria.

    AIM OF THE STUDY: The effects of administration of aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis (Schweinf. Ex Hiern) stem on some testicular function indices of male rats (Rattus norvegicus) and their recovery potentials for 10 days were investigated. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Rats were grouped into four: A, B, C and D where A (the control) received orally 1ml of distilled water (the vehicle), B, C and D (the test groups) received orally on daily basis graded doses of 18, 50 and 100mg/kg body weight of the plant extract, respectively, for 28 days. RESULTS: Compared with the control, extract administration for 28 days at all the doses resulted in significant increase (P<0.05) in percentage testes-body weight ratio, testicular cholesterol, sialic acid, glycogen, acid phosphatase and gamma-glutamyl transferase activities while there was significant decrease (P<0.05) in the activities of testicular alkaline phosphatase, acid phosphatase, glutamate dehydrogenase and concentrations of protein. Recoveries were made by the animals on some of the testicular function indices mainly at 18mg/kg body weight. CONCLUSIONS: The alterations brought about by the aqueous extract of Fadogia agrestis stem are indications of adverse effects on the male rat testicular function and this may adversely affect the functional capacities of the testes. The recovery made at the dose of 18mg/kg body weight as used in folklore medicine suggests that it does not exhibit permanent toxicity at this dose.

    PMID: 18023305 [PubMed - in process]

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=6737361 < thread it was dicussed in. said in higher doses it could downregulate....but how long should i wait after pct to start it?


    thanks for your help. im sure tforce is gonna be awesome when i can run it
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    I think usually 2-4 weeks after PCT is optimal depending on how shut down or how harsh your cycle was.
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    ok thanks. ill go ahead and wait then
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    I waited til week 4 after my run, and my body and my wife thanked me for it. I've never used t-force in pct, but the libido spike is noticeable when I take it or don't take it.

    I've found t-force> primal male and I was a huge advocate of primal male before. Thanks to np for that buy1get1 deal on tforce or I woulda never known
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    The libido effects with Fadogia are ridiculous, no?

    Agreed upon with the libido effects in T-Force being superior to Primal Male and hell - for that statement to be coming from me would mean something seeing how I had say in the latter's formula (albeit not exclusive say and it was not the way the original formula was drawn up by the time it came to market).

    One may question if some of the additional ingredients in PM actually negate the effects of the Fadogia. I don't personally have an answer to this unfortnately. I would be curious to see a quality Divanil formula run with T-Force if anyone is familiar with any threads on this, let me know.


    Also - many of the side effects to Fadogia can actually be offset with intermittent dosing parameters. In other words, I have NEVER recommended a straight cycle of Fadogia-containing products...but more of the:

    Weekend Holiday Protocol
    5 days on, 2 days off

    -or-

    even a 3 days on, 1 day off

    Though I have less experience with the latter one.


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    good to see you D.

    surprised at that response, but pleased at the same time

    I havent ran tforce with act. xtr. but I believe there are some threads/reviews, let me dig. I hope we can agree that at. xtr has a quality divanil component>?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bnatural View Post
    good to see you D.

    surprised at that response, but pleased at the same time

    I havent ran tforce with act. xtr. but I believe there are some threads/reviews, let me dig. I hope we can agree that at. xtr has a quality divanil component>?
    I don't know why people are still surprised with my responses to this day. Its actually funny; I have told you guys for a long time that I am as altruistic as one could possibly be in this very, very shady insdustry. I will tell it like it is EVEN if it is a project I am involved in - no matter what the final product yielded...myself nor anyone for that matter could be perfect. I too had nothing to do with sourcing on PM though, so there could theoretically be some gaps there or as I mentioned - perhaps there is something in PM that somehow negates effects of Fadogia; I don't believe that has ever been facilitated through adequate study design though.

    As for Activate,...yes - I am fine and probably encouraged for it to be that particular formula (problem still: if Activate Xtreme is the one used - there are ingredients that are not just Divanil in it - though it may assist in deeming any potential confounding issues with the PM formula given that there are some crossover ingredients in the two formulas).


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    Definitely see your points above.

    I am looking for TForce + Act Xtr. I know the AX has some additional ing. but the 2 should work well together, and I don't usually see divanil run on its own. Now, if we are thinking of making a supplement containing the above with quality sources, that would be a grand idea.

    Any ideas which ingredient(s) may be negating the effects of fadogia in PM?
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    I agree on the fadoggia + divanil (like the divanex by nutraplanet, or bcs labs has a divanil only product although higher priced), as it shoudl be a good combo, where fadoggia helps to increase actual test produced and divanil makes sure that it is usable. I wish more test boosters had less compounds as I think very few of these herbs actually work and the ones that do are underdosed due to other "junk" in them. T force is an outstanding product because it is stand-alone. Would also like to see a trib alatus stand alone.
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    No idea...PM includes I3C and Epimedium and I belive Activate Xtreme does as well.

    There is zinc in both formulas (T-Force and PM) however, the salt may have an impact role - orotate in PM vs. aspartate in TF.

    One thing I am NOT a fan of and protested its inclusion in PM was the copper. I do NOT like concurrent administration of copper and zinc, but copper orotate was also included in the final product despite my original protest.

    But truthfully...I have no idea. It could be as simple as difference in sourcing (Omega vs. MAN) which I have had no say in.


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    Quote Originally Posted by isoc View Post
    I agree on the fadoggia + divanil (like the divanex by nutraplanet, or bcs labs has a divanil only product although higher priced), as it shoudl be a good combo, where fadoggia helps to increase actual test produced and divanil makes sure that it is usable. I wish more test boosters had less compounds as I think very few of these herbs actually work and the ones that do are underdosed due to other "junk" in them. T force is an outstanding product because it is stand-alone. Would also like to see a trib alatus stand alone.
    I think you make completely valid points and can appreciate your overt concerns. How does one sell a stand-alone though if the idea is to make money and 40 other companies also have the exact same thing to boast? Unfortunately, I can also see the desire for companies to make money. A relative conundrum I don't see resolved easily except you being a savvy consumer.

    As for the trib alatus; personally, I need more validation to the ingredient rather than the El-Tantawy study from an obscure Indian journal. The effects on a type 1 model of diabetes are interesting (hypoglycemia and hypolipidemia), but I am not certain this would be the same for the non-automimmune persuasian unfortunately.


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    the only way to do stand alone is if the ingredient is really effective and the dosage in prop blends is underdosed and the stand alone can offer the effective dosage, and especially cheaper, but I do understand the $$$ needs to be made.

    I have seen no studies on trib alatus, but the two products that contain it seem to get constistently good reviews, although that doesnt necessarily mean a lot sometimes. The actual compound itself would be put to the test if it were in a stand alone, or used in conjunciton with only one other item, much more controlled, although definitely not lab quality, still better than taking it with 10 different things.
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    wow...im totally lost.
    so you waited 4 weeks after pct?
    and you suggest to do 5 on 2 off? why not take it ED?
    what do you mean by side effects? ive never heard of any from it. are u talking about the effct on the LH? so it would be possible for me to run it in pct now with the 5 on 2 off? is that what your saying?
    sorry...but im lost
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    I personally feel it can be used in pct, just do not use more than 1gram...
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    I ran my pct for 4 weeks, then added in tforce
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    o sweet. thanks for the replies. i think ima wait 2 weeks after my 5 week pct. i think thats resonable
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    keep us up to speed on your results
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    i will...but from those 2 days that i started taking it, i could already notice libido effects. i read it was pretty crazy in that department, esp after day 10 lol. im excited to run it. it just sucks i have to wait. only 3 more weeks tho(1 week left of pct). should i run it 5 on 2 off?
    since your a mst rep, i just wanted to say your cre 02 rocks. i only had a 3 pill sample, but i got some very dececnt pumps(more so than usual) when i used it. im def gonna have to try that one out for a full run
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    As far as I am concerned, I feel that the product does NOT require a multi-week waiting regimen established into PCT based on it's mechanism - the concern is that it is an LH-mimetic and while that could promote increased T, it could also promote increased E. Still, LH-regulation should actually be THE primary aim of a well-designed PCT...does that mean that other agents should be run concurrently? Absolutely! But, who in their right-mind would be doing a Fadogia monotherapeutic PCT - that's just plain assinine.

    I do, however, fear that the 5 on, 2 off regimen is warranted given the histological data available.


    Quote Originally Posted by TNASTYII View Post
    i will...but from those 2 days that i started taking it, i could already notice libido effects. i read it was pretty crazy in that department, esp after day 10 lol. im excited to run it. it just sucks i have to wait. only 3 more weeks tho(1 week left of pct). should i run it 5 on 2 off?
    As above,...yes!




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    dude...i know you know 100 percent what your talking about.....but the way you write is WAY above my head lol. i have no clue what u said in the first paragraph lol! all i got was def run it 5 on 2 off
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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    As far as I am concerned, I feel that the product does NOT require a multi-week waiting regimen established into PCT based on it's mechanism - the concern is that it is an LH-mimetic and while that could promote increased T, it could also promote increased E. Still, LH-regulation should actually be THE primary aim of a well-designed PCT...does that mean that other agents should be run concurrently? Absolutely! But, who in their right-mind would be doing a Fadogia monotherapeutic PCT - that's just plain assinine.

    I do, however, fear that the 5 on, 2 off regimen is warranted given the histological data available.




    As above,...yes!




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    WELL SAID, Clomid is well established for boosting LH, that is why I see no reason why this herb should not be used in pct, a SERM will deal with the negative estrogen, even aromasin will do the job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TNASTYII View Post
    dude...i know you know 100 percent what your talking about.....but the way you write is WAY above my head lol. i have no clue what u said in the first paragraph lol! all i got was def run it 5 on 2 off
    Cliff's Notes:

    1. I am a believer that you can use Fadogia early on in PCT without randoming waiting for ___ weeks/months to occur in the interim. If someone can suggest to me a controlled study that suggests the contrary - then so be it; until then...it is a theory and nothing more.

    2. The MAJOR factor in PCT is LH-stimulation, not steroidal molecule (i.e. - estrogens included) control - people tend to get this a bit backward. Sure you are trying to avoid estrogenic side effects at the same time, BUT your regaining control of the HPTA is your prime mission in PCT!!!

    3. Given #2, anyone that employs a LH-mimetic in isolation is an idiot. I can't say it much simpler than that. An AI or SERM IS required to control estrogen at the same time - PERIOD!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by andrew732 View Post
    WELL SAID, Clomid is well established for boosting LH, that is why I see no reason why this herb should not be used in pct, a SERM will deal with the negative estrogen, even aromasin will do the job.
    I agree Clomid is a good SERM agent AND LH-mimetic (people still tend to believe tamox, ralox, or torem to be identical though they are NOT! Others will claim side effect, I say that is poorly controlled use rather than reality - especially if they haven't gotten equal sides from the others and there are some more internal sides people don't account for. Go figure.).



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    Quote Originally Posted by dinoiii View Post
    Cliff's Notes:

    1. I am a believer that you can use Fadogia early on in PCT without randoming waiting for ___ weeks/months to occur in the interim. If someone can suggest to me a controlled study that suggests the contrary - then so be it; until then...it is a theory and nothing more.

    2. The MAJOR factor in PCT is LH-stimulation, not steroidal molecule (i.e. - estrogens included) control - people tend to get this a bit backward. Sure you are trying to avoid estrogenic side effects at the same time, BUT your regaining control of the HPTA is your prime mission in PCT!!!

    3. Given #2, anyone that employs a LH-mimetic in isolation is an idiot. I can't say it much simpler than that. An AI or SERM IS required to control estrogen at the same time - PERIOD!!!




    I agree Clomid is a good SERM agent AND LH-mimetic (people still tend to believe tamox, ralox, or torem to be identical though they are NOT! Others will claim side effect, I say that is poorly controlled use rather than reality - especially if they haven't gotten equal sides from the others and there are some more internal sides people don't account for. Go figure.).



    D_
    Well said, I work with endocrinologists so I see how effective clomid and fadogia is, please post often in this forum, your research is much favored in my eyes, I love the recent studies on pct. What do you think of the new imporved modified clomid?
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    yea i am taking clomid as my main pct, i also took nolv for the first 2 weeks of my pct, and im also using the old topical sustain alpha. it worked pretty well but im going to cotinue on into the 5th week. so i see it as if fadogia does have such effect on LH, then it would be like using hcg in pct which is back peddling

    thanks for the cliff notes. it makes since now lol. since its not early in pct anymore im gonna wait till 2 weeks after. i dont wanna mess up LH productiong that ive already got back up and running. i get side effects from clomid in higher doses just fyi. i had a headache the first like week of pct
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    always good info there D
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    alright about 1.5 weeks to go and im starting the tforce up. what dosage yall think i should go with? 2, 3, or 4 caps ED? i have 2 bottles so keep that in mind too
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    Dana,
    What dose would you suggest for the 5 on, 2 off protocol?

    A gram? Gram and a half? 2 grams?

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80 View Post
    Dana,
    What dose would you suggest for the 5 on, 2 off protocol?

    A gram? Gram and a half? 2 grams?

    Thanks.
    yea..thats basically what i was asking
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    either 3on/1off, or 5on/2off, dose however you setup your workout schedule.

    I use 3-4caps of tforce, 3 if stacking, 4 if not, I'm 200 so that makes a difference for dosing
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    ok well im around 245ish, so i guess i should use 4, but i think ima stick with 3. i start it up this thursday so ill keep you guys informed. ima do the 5 on 2 off, cuz it works best for my schedule
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    sounds good man, you can always increase the dose if need be.
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    Good to know nasty, and thanks for the tips Bnat!
  

  
 

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