Is tren as good as it gets?

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    Great info... I would highly recommend never taking Tren while trying to recover from a broken bone. I learned the hard way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Yikes. Sorry to hear about your struggles man. I've been through a bit of the same, 2 SLAP tears and almost tore my bicep tendon right off, 75% through. And then coming back from that surgery, I injured my back twice. I've always wondered about var, read a lot about how helpful it can be. HGH definitely was helpful for me as well (GHRP's / CJC), alongside TB-500. I don't think I'll take TB-500 again though, BPC-157 looks superior but still waiting to read more logs with it in play. I think it might be the best new substance to use in adjunct to anything that will dry you out.

    BPC 157 has been shown in rat studies to:

    -heal torn quadriceps muscles, detached achilles tendon, muscles that have been damaged/crushed
    - dramatically fast recovery from muscle tears
    - tendon to bone healing
    - increased ligament healing
    - has a variety of protective effects in the organs
    - human trials demonstrate healing and prevention of stomach ulcers
    - no adverse reactions have been seen in human trials.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Great info... I would highly recommend never taking Tren while trying to recover from a broken bone. I learned the hard way.
    I'm almost afraid to ask.. but what happened during recovery?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post

    Yikes. Sorry to hear about your struggles man. I've been through a bit of the same, 2 SLAP tears and almost tore my bicep tendon right off, 75% through. And then coming back from that surgery, I injured my back twice. I've always wondered about var, read a lot about how helpful it can be. HGH definitely was helpful for me as well (GHRP's / CJC), alongside TB-500. I don't think I'll take TB-500 again though, BPC-157 looks superior but still waiting to read more logs with it in play. I think it might be the best new substance to use in adjunct to anything that will dry you out.

    BPC 157 has been shown in rat studies to:

    -heal torn quadriceps muscles, detached achilles tendon, muscles that have been damaged/crushed
    - dramatically fast recovery from muscle tears
    - tendon to bone healing
    - increased ligament healing
    - has a variety of protective effects in the organs
    - human trials demonstrate healing and prevention of stomach ulcers
    - no adverse reactions have been seen in human trials.
    U need to get over to Datbtrue's site and study up on healing. When it comes to evidence-based pharmacokinetics and supplementation, there isn't a better place to land on the web. Not to mention easy and affordable access to clinical grade peptides, non of that Chinese rubbish.
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    U need to get over to Datbtrue's site and study up on healing. When it comes to evidence-based pharmacokinetics and supplementation, there isn't a better place to land on the web.
    Oh I've been there for a bit now Great site, pretty amazing info in there. I could read for hours, days, weeks. I haven't been posting around in there yet though but I might once my l-car arrives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post

    Oh I've been there for a bit now Great site, pretty amazing info in there. I could read for hours, days, weeks. I haven't been posting around in there yet though but I might once my l-car arrives.
    Dude, L-Car is amazing.

    It does everything they say it does. I can't wait to get my two vials worth for show prep. Stuff is a real help when training hard everyday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Dude, L-Car is amazing.

    It does everything they say it does. I can't wait to get my two vials worth for show prep. Stuff is a real help when training hard everyday.
    I'm looking forward as well...should be any day now, although I have no contest to prep for hehe.. When is your show? Will you have a log for your prep?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post

    I'm looking forward as well...should be any day now, although I have no contest to prep for hehe.. When is your show? Will you have a log for your prep?
    I do have a sort of log. It's more of a conglomerate thread of an assortment of products that I am reviewing. Trest Ace vs. Trest Dec, DTA, Formabolic, L-Carn, etc.

    Here it is..

    FP's REVIEW: Trest Ace, DTA, & Formabolic - Let's talk
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    Why are people saying to use an AI on tren?
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    Why are people saying to use an AI on tren?
    If ur running an aromatizing compound with it, sure. Like Test/Tren combo. Just depends on the person and the other steroids they stack with it.
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    ^^^Right. You arent running it alone, There should be a test base. All sides management starts with proper estrogen management so using an ai to keep e2 in clinical range even when on cycle is one of the most prudent things you can do man.
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    For me, running tren with higher than TRT dosages of test just increases the side effects without much benefit. TRT dosages don't need an ai. That's all I was getting at
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    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    For me, running tren with higher than TRT dosages of test just increases the side effects without much benefit. TRT dosages don't need an ai. That's all I was getting at
    TRT dosed run with tren very well might for many. The affinity for tren to the progesterone receptor as well as its Prolactin effects change the game man. There is an increase in estrogen sensitivity and it has even been speculated an up regulation in aromatase expression (this is proven with deca). You could be on a straight trt dose (if it truly is a trt dose - which most arent - they are higher) and be fine without an ai- throw tren in the mix and the game changes. I wouldnt pass the trt no ai needed thing along as definitive because for many there idea of trt dose is out of line as well as the things I just mentioned changing the scenario significantly. Its a case by case thing for certain.

    btw- I agree lower test reduces sides when running tren. There is a reduction and easier sides management primarily due to the easier management of e2.
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    I think it's hard to beat the fat burning effects but other compounds will give you the hardening.
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    I agree... My TRT dose is 200mgs per week, per my doctor's prescription (but as stated, very few stick to that). At 200 per week I do not need and AI, confirmed by blood panels. I'm at roughly 400 per week now, which is where I always stay at, and I am not using an AI. When I get a moment to get blood work done I'll post my E2 levels at 400mgs per week. Typically my E2 is around 25. Running ridiculously high levels of tren in the past I only used T3 with a base of test at 100mgs.

    Quote Originally Posted by threeFs View Post
    For me, running tren with higher than TRT dosages of test just increases the side effects without much benefit. TRT dosages don't need an ai. That's all I was getting at
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I agree... My TRT dose is 200mgs per week, per my doctor's prescription (but as stated, very few stick to that). At 200 per week I do not need and AI, confirmed by blood panels. I'm at roughly 400 per week now, which is where I always stay at, and I am not using an AI. When I get a moment to get blood work done I'll post my E2 levels at 400mgs per week. Typically my E2 is around 25. Running ridiculously high levels of tren in the past I only used T3 with a base of test at 100mgs.



    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    The test seems way high for only 500mgs per week. I cruise on 500 Test E per week and my levels are consistent at around 1100. If your E2 is low, why would you think an AI would help? By all means lets see what the latest blood work says. It could be that the problem is just you trying too hard and concerned that things aren't normal, making it even harder to perform. Get your blood work then it'll be easier to pin point the problem, if there is one.
    So which is it?
    Hey wheres that blood work showing test levels of 1100 on 500mgs/week?
    You know at some point people on here will figure out you are full of crap and dont do of take or do half the **** you say you do and give advice on. Stop making **** up and give solid, experience based, honest advice. Its getting so you cant keep the lies straight.
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    I will say that 500mg of pure Test Cyp will easily put me in the 2500's on a test.

    I cruised at 650-850 on 140mg/wk. Dosed once weekly.
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    You really are an ass, aren't you? Have you ever actually used AAS or do you just read crap, post it and act like you know something? I assume it's the latter; full of crap.


    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyG View Post
    So which is it?
    Hey wheres that blood work showing test levels of 1100 on 500mgs/week?
    You know at some point people on here will figure out you are full of crap and dont do of take or do half the **** you say you do and give advice on. Stop making **** up and give solid, experience based, honest advice. Its getting so you cant keep the lies straight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    You really are an ass, aren't you? Have you ever actually used AAS or do you just read crap, post it and act like you know something? I assume it's the latter; full of crap.
    He still makes a valid point.
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    What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    He still makes a valid point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    What's the point?
    You contradicted yourself.
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    Test Enanthate at 400mgs per week is my base. I usually inject test prop or suspension every other day. The suspension is out of the system so quickly I don't usually count it, but if you want to add it to the average, then it's 400mgs of a long estered test along with short estered test a few times per week. Anyone who has ever used AAS knows that the difference between 400 and 500 mgs of a long estered test per week is negligible... If all you injected was 50mgs of test suspension per day it's not the same as injecting 350mgs of test enanthate per week. Even a moron like Stan should know that. But if he wants to pick my posts apart as if he's some expert on AAS and wants to battle each post I make, perhaps he should take it off line and I'd be glad to let him vent and get it out of his system. We don't even know if he has ever used AAS. He's so full of himself he has no idea what he's saying half the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    He still makes a valid point.
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    Where is the contradiction? "Roughly" 400 is an approximate. I explained the differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You contradicted yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Test Enanthate at 400mgs per week is my base. I usually inject test prop or suspension every other day. The suspension is out of the system so quickly I don't usually count it, but if you want to add it to the average, then it's 400mgs of a long estered test along with short estered test a few times per week. Anyone who has ever used AAS knows that the difference between 400 and 500 mgs of a long estered test per week is negligible... If all you injected was 50mgs of test suspension per day it's not the same as injecting 350mgs of test enanthate per week. Even a moron like Stan should know that. But if he wants to pick my posts apart as if he's some expert on AAS and wants to battle each post I make, perhaps he should take it off line and I'd be glad to let him vent and get it out of his system. We don't even know if he has ever used AAS. He's so full of himself he has no idea what he's saying half the time.
    You claimed to run 500mg E per week and are now claiming 400mg E per week. THAT'S the contradiction.
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    You know, when I read your statement and his asinine comments, it's no wonder guys are all confused as to what to use and how to use it. You can't understand basic math or ester cleavage, and Stan just spouts off stuff off "clinical" studies without knowing first hand how anything actually works. Is there any evidence that Stan has actually ever used AAS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You claimed to run 500mg E per week and are now claiming 400mg E per week. THAT'S the contradiction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    You know, when I read your statement and his asinine comments, it's no wonder guys are all confused as to what to use and how to use it. You can't understand basic math or ester cleavage, and Stan just spouts off stuff off "clinical" studies without knowing first hand how anything actually works. Is there any evidence that Stan has actually ever used AAS?
    You could just admit you made a mistake instead of throwing a fit.
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    I made no mistake. I thought I explained it simple enough for everyone to understand. No contradiction and no mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You could just admit you made a mistake instead of throwing a fit.
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    Easy guys. Let's simmer this down a notch or two.

    I'd be more interested in why ur T levels are only 1100 on a 400-500mg/wk dosing.

    I easily get an 1100 AVERAGE with only 200mg/wk!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I made no mistake. I thought I explained it simple enough for everyone to understand. No contradiction and no mistake.
    You have one post claiming you cruise on 400mg E and another claiming 500mg E per week. How is that NOT a contradiction? If it's a typo, just freaking say so. You should really reread what you post.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Easy guys. Let's simmer this down a notch or two. I'd be more interested in why ur T levels are only 1100 on a 400-500mg/wk dosing. I easily get an 1100 AVERAGE with only 200mg/wk!
    I also wonder this and makes me question many of his claims.
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    My guess is that at my age I'm not responding to AAS as I did a decade or two ago. That's why I pepper my TRT does with suspension or Prop, to give me more available test when I hit the weights. If you're still on AAS when you hit 60+, you'll notice a change in your body's response. I can't quite place my finger on it, but it's noticeable. If I stay at 400mgs of Test E per week, I feel "average." But if I add suspension on 2-3 of the days, I feel a surge that I don't get otherwise. But, the real concern is not your test levels but your RBC, Hemotacrit and for some, E2/DHT. I make note of my test levels, but other values are more of a factor to me. My E2, believe it or not, remains on the low side with no AI/SERM. That's a function of test, so the levels I'm at (400 Test E plus 150 +/- Suspension) seems to have me dialed in. Like I said, my age is going to be a factor and I'm sure that's why my values are different from you younger guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    Easy guys. Let's simmer this down a notch or two.

    I'd be more interested in why ur T levels are only 1100 on a 400-500mg/wk dosing.

    I easily get an 1100 AVERAGE with only 200mg/wk!
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    How can you not understand what I said? It'd freakin' amazing. But let me ask you this, just to illustrate a point. Do you really think there is any noticeable difference between 400 and 500mgs of test E per week? Do you really think that that difference is going to make a difference?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You have one post claiming you cruise on 400mg E and another claiming 500mg E per week. How is that NOT a contradiction? If it's a typo, just freaking say so. You should really reread what you post.


    I also wonder this and makes me question many of his claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    How can you not understand what I said? It'd freakin' amazing. But let me ask you this, just to illustrate a point. Do you really think there is any noticeable difference between 400 and 500mgs of test E per week? Do you really think that that difference is going to make a difference?
    Nice deflection...again. However, I'll play along with your childish game. The difference in a 25% or a 20% decrease (depending on perspective) in dose is going to be noticeable.
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    Well, there is a notable difference switching from test e that's 250mg/ml and test e that's 200mg/ml

    And then going to 100mg/ml of prop e/o/d you notice how low it was even more.

    So yea, 100mg more per week of test e makes a notable difference for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    My guess is that at my age I'm not responding to AAS as I did a decade or two ago.
    Well there's two things that can happen to someone who is on TRT.

    1) androgen receptor downregulation from above average test levels. Might need some LCLT or l-car shots to upregulate the AR in this case. This is what could happen to people over time when on TRT.

    BUT this does not sound like what's happening with you. It is possible you are metabolizing test much quicker than normal. I have seen this before in the Male Anti-Aging section of the board. There are some people on TRT who MUST use higher levels of test on TRT (in order to get normal levels) because their bodies are metabolizing test far too quickly. I am not certain of the cause though but it's definitely possible. 400mg a week should have you much higher than 1100, should be around 2000 I'm guessing. How often do you shoot, and how long after injection was the test that showed your levels at 1100?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post

    1) androgen receptor downregulation from above average test levels.
    This is a myth.
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    [QUOTE="jbryand101b;4635993"]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post

    1) androgen receptor downregulation from above average test levels. /QUOTE]

    This is a myth.

    It's been proven that l-carnitine l-tartrate upregulates the AR. I've seen the studies. All receptors of any kind can get downregulated.

    Do you have proof otherwise?
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    I don't have proof atm but I do know that Datbtrue claims that steroids can UPREGULATE the receptors, some more than others of course. DTA seems to do this from my experience. Usually if Dat says something definitive, there is some sort of medical literature that supports his claim. Just a thought.

    The receptors do get used to the dosing though I do not think it's due to downregulation. U just have to keep upping the dose. Personally, if that's the case, then TRT is impossible to be a lifelong success because you'll always start "feeling like crap" again after a while. Then u need to add more . Then more. And so on.

    I'd rather just do long bulking/cutting cycles at productive doses and cycle off with Clomid, L-Carn, Formestane etc for months at a time. I'm debating 6 months on, 6-8 months off.
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    I've been on TRT around 5 yrs, so far I've felt much better after lowering my dose over time from a starting dose of 200-250mg to about 125mg a week. I know it's not that long though so I'll have to get back to you about this in 10 years hehe
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    If it's true that it's impossible for the androgen receptor to become down-regulated, it is very easy for the dopamine receptors to down-regulate. Hormones are closely tied in with neurotransmitters. Estrogen has a very close affiliation with serotonin, and DHT/Test is linked in tightly with dopamine. When dopamine receptors are over-used or highly stimulated for a very long time, they will quickly and easily become down-regulated causing all sorts of issues like fatigue, loss of motivation, loss of sex drive, etc.
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    The androgen receptor however is only responsible for muscle growth and the like. The 'feeling good' sensation whilst on TRT is directly associated to neurotransmitters and their function, so 'not feeling test and needing more over time' while on TRT is not a function of the androgen receptor, it's more a function of the dopamine receptor and the balance of serotonin/dopamine.

    Not getting the same gains is another story altogether though.

    Anyhow, taking 400mg of test per week and getting levels of 1100 is a sign of an ultra fast test-metabolization issue, not any sort of down-regulation or the like.
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