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Test suspension only cycle

  1.  06-26-2013  06:38 PM
    Registered User theomega92's Avatar
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    Test suspension only cycle


    Hello, I have been lifting for about 6 years and want to hop on a cycle. The only problem is I have a job which can allow them to test me at any time if they suspect I'm using AAS. Would a test suspension only cycle be a good idea? Run at 50mg ED for 4 weeks with anastrozole EOD and toremifene for pct at 120/90/60/60?



  2.  06-26-2013  06:49 PM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    I'd look to Prop, suspension becomes a pain to inject. Most brands clog the needle easily.
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  3.  06-26-2013  07:21 PM
    Registered User theomega92's Avatar
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    So other than painful daily shots (possibly 22 gauge or so needles) is there any other real downsides? Faster or harder shutdown or anything?

  4.  06-26-2013  07:54 PM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    Shut down is all or nothing, it's the recovery timeline that makes the difference. Water based steroids tend to be more problematic with infection too. I use suspension but it is aggrevating when it clogs and you have to reinject it.

    50mgs daily is a good first dose.
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  5.  06-26-2013  08:40 PM
    Registered User theomega92's Avatar
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    Damn, clogging seems like it could be very annoying. Would better quality be able to go through a slin pin? Also does that look good for pct? 4 weeks torem scaling down from 120?

  6.  06-29-2013  09:39 AM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by theomega92 View Post
    Damn, clogging seems like it could be very annoying. Would better quality be able to go through a slin pin? Also does that look good for pct? 4 weeks torem scaling down from 120?
    Better quality will pass through finer needles but it gets hard to find. For PCT I prefer a hCG and Clomid with a little AI mixed in. hCG will cause the testes to aromatize the locally produced test so I always use them in conjuction. One thing to consider is suspension has a double peak, the slightly dissolved amount spikes blood levels within a day but the crystals can take a week to dissolve from the depot. There's a study online showing the peaks. That said Prop might be a better, more consistant option.
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  7.  06-29-2013  10:30 AM
    Registered User lennoxchi's Avatar
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    I have never had test-s clog a needle, ever. of course my guy is the best at what he does.

  8.  06-29-2013  07:06 PM
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    It depends what they test for. Even with suspension, no ester, they could do a complete metabolic profile and have strong circumstantial evidence that you were on AAS. Even though the suspension is in and out, that quickly, other indicators like E2 and SBGH, LH and so on can linger longer. Most places do not go through all that trouble and just check for test... I use suspension a lot and my suspension is in oil and it never hurts, burns or clogs.

  9.  06-29-2013  07:20 PM
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    All true

  10.  09-10-2013  02:31 AM
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    Test Suspension has a very short half life. You would need to pin at least twice a day to maintain test levels.

  11.  09-11-2013  05:35 AM
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    Originally Posted by bad rad View Post

    Better quality will pass through finer needles but it gets hard to find. For PCT I prefer a hCG and Clomid with a little AI mixed in. hCG will cause the testes to aromatize the locally produced test so I always use them in conjuction. One thing to consider is suspension has a double peak, the slightly dissolved amount spikes blood levels within a day but the crystals can take a week to dissolve from the depot. There's a study online showing the peaks. That said Prop might be a better, more consistant option.
    Why would you use hcg in pct when it's m own to suppress natural LH production?
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  12.  09-12-2013  08:00 AM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lukef2000 View Post
    Why would you use hcg in pct when it's m own to suppress natural LH production?
    The goal isn't weeks of hCG but enough to stimulate the testes, 3-4 weeks is usually good. Also in clinical settings estrogen is rarely addressed when administering hCG, this leads to spikes in Estrogen which will cause a negative feedback loop. Most PCT protocols I see don't address this either, Nolvadex and Clomid won't stop the testes from producing estrogen locally. Even on HRT I use AI to control the hCG induced estrogen production.
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  13.  09-12-2013  02:28 PM
    Registered User Lukef2000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bad rad View Post

    The goal isn't weeks of hCG but enough to stimulate the testes, 3-4 weeks is usually good. Also in clinical settings estrogen is rarely addressed when administering hCG, this leads to spikes in Estrogen which will cause a negative feedback loop. Most PCT protocols I see don't address this either, Nolvadex and Clomid won't stop the testes from producing estrogen locally. Even on HRT I use AI to control the hCG induced estrogen production.
    I think most people on here know that estrogen needs to be controlled but you didn't answer my question, Why would you use hcg in pct when it's known to be suppressive?
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  14.  09-12-2013  07:22 PM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    It's not suppressive if used like I stated. There's a study showing that the locally produced estrogen is what makes it suppressive.
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  15.  09-12-2013  07:42 PM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    Check this out.

    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.
    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    División Endocrinología, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biología y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1952114

    The above shows why I prefer an AI during hCG use.
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  16.  09-12-2013  07:43 PM
    Registered User Lukef2000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bad rad View Post
    It's not suppressive if used like I stated. There's a study showing that the locally produced estrogen is what makes it suppressive.
    I like to see that study if you have it, as I've not heard of this before. I always thought estrogen in males was a product of the aromatase enzyme converting testosterone. I read a while back suppression from hcg was due to hcg itself simulating LH therefore since the testes is receiving an LH signal the body doesn't produce it's own. Either way I'd like to see that study so I can compare it with other hcg studies I have.
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  17.  09-12-2013  07:56 PM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    The above study gives some insight, it only works if you have subclinical T levels (at least with those doses). It was also effective for 2 months straight and continued to raise T levels in men with clinically low T.
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  18.  09-14-2013  04:30 PM
    Registered User Lukef2000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bad rad View Post
    Check this out.

    Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.
    Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

    División Endocrinología, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biología y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1952114

    The above shows why I prefer an AI during hCG use.
    Originally Posted by bad rad View Post
    The above study gives some insight, it only works if you have subclinical T levels (at least with those doses). It was also effective for 2 months straight and continued to raise T levels in men with clinically low T.
    Umm ok tbh I don't see the correlation between that study and the point that hcg is suppressive in times of low LH production. There is a pretty big difference between having sub clinical t levels and post cycle therapy. I can see the need for an AI but that's about the only thing i picked up from that study, oh and the fact that estrogen is not the unique factor that can cause desensitisation of the leydig cells. It might raise T levels but during times of pct you have to worry about more than just bringing your T levels back up. Or did I miss something entirely??

  19.  09-23-2013  08:27 AM
    Registered User bad rad's Avatar
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    The take away is that there isn't a specific timeline that we need to stop hCG. Use it as long as your levels are subclinical. My experience is usually 3-4 weeks is enough to start the HPTA at the testes. Other studies have shown that LH/FSH levels return within 3-4 weeks, even after being suppressed for 20+ weeks, it's the comatose testes that inhibit normal HPTA function. Although the study shows that Estrogen is very suppressive to testicular hCG response it doesn't mean that hCG is suppressive also, both groups took the same dose and had very similar response. My thoughts are that this dose is over the threshold, ie more than needed for a positive effect and the testes weren't able to produce anymore T even with a higher dose.
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  20.  09-25-2013  12:31 PM
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    Originally Posted by theomega92 View Post
    Hello, I have been lifting for about 6 years and want to hop on a cycle. The only problem is I have a job which can allow them to test me at any time if they suspect I'm using AAS. Would a test suspension only cycle be a good idea? Run at 50mg ED for 4 weeks with anastrozole EOD and toremifene for pct at 120/90/60/60?

    DH is right they can find out if they want to spend the money. i have run TNE cycles. 200mg a day. it flows smoother so you can shoot it through a very small guage. i use a 25g but u might be able to use even smaller. i wouldn't go with test suspended in water, its would give you really unstable bloods. TNE depending on the oil used can actually act as a time release. i would run it 3-4 weeks high TNE like atleast a gram a week. then i would get an OTF pro hormone or something thats legal. so if you do get popped you can say you got it from gnc.

    but defiantly use TNE suspended in oil, you dont want water.
    Christopher
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