First Dbol and Test E cycle

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  1. Oh and btw, being that we are referring to long ester nandrolone....the sides are very difficult to control as itll take a few weeks to clear if bailing becomes necessary.

  2. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy View Post
    My friend, I like that u draw on personal experience (best kind of data imo), but you are one case. The truth is detroit hammer is right in what hes saying. Remember he is speaking in terms of relativity to other drugs.
    Relative to Tren/Orals, yes it's weak. Relative to Testosterone/EQ - it's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy View Post
    U got over 10 years on me and i can tell u that most of the successful up and coming athletes are skipping deca entirely for the reasons DH mentioned.
    Nandrolone had a bad rep for many many years but is gaining in popularity as of late - NPP in particular. Why? Because low test/high anabolic cycles are gaining in popularity and nandrolone is perfect in that environment. You can run it at 600-800mg per week and get the growth and joint benefits of SOME estrogen but it doesn't create the out of control estrogen atmosphere that Test does at higher doses. Running high test and high deca is problematic due to crazy estrogen/prolactin.

    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy View Post
    Decas true medical benefit is mostly attributed joint healing.
    I have looked for controlled, scientific studies on nandrolone's collagen synthesis abilities and have not been able to find good ones - please show me where to find these if they exist - I'm interested. My understanding is that nandrolone's medical use is to fight muscle wasting and osteoporosis - so building muscle and increasing bone density.....
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  3. A friend of mine whose parents have been docs for 20 years have prescribed it to patients for that reason. Ill try to draw on the studies but i have not flipped through them in quite some time. The majority of my research on deca was done a year or two back now.
  4. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy View Post
    A friend of mine whose parents have been docs for 20 years have prescribed it to patients for that reason. Ill try to draw on the studies but i have not flipped through them in quite some time. The majority of my research on deca was done a year or two back now.
    Thanks - yes, please let me know if you find any.

    Regardless - nandrolone is FDA approved for treating osteoporosis and anemia. It is rarely used anymore for either - it is occasionally used to treat muscle wasting and red blood cell count in AIDS patients however. HRT clinics will prescribe it to treat joint pain but that is "off label" usage.

    Schering brought the drug through FDA approval and the healing of joints were not part of the process, nor their research.

  5. sorry about not replying to anyones comments, been hectic at work and training hard when i can. well on my 3rd pin today, so 7 days into my course, had amazingly good results. i have put on 7 lbs, so now weight 11' 8' and have noticed a good increase in strength and feel really pumped. so really happy so far with the results so far. as this is my first course i would like to keep it a fairly simple course. will taking test e on its own (after the dbol finishes at week six) still yield an increase in size and strength?
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  6. 500mg/wk is just a really high trt dose.. u may get some size and strength but at 25 yo u should already have decent test levels , albeit not as high as 500mg wk will give you but if you're gonna shut down your hpta i wouldnt do it for less than a gram a week of gear.. ie.. 500/400 test /deca or whatever else + an oral (dbol & anavar/winny or whatever else u can acquire)
  7. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by abs322 View Post
    500mg/wk is just a really high trt dose.. u may get some size and strength but at 25 yo u should already have decent test levels , albeit not as high as 500mg wk will give you but if you're gonna shut down your hpta i wouldnt do it for less than a gram a week of gear.. ie.. 500/400 test /deca or whatever else + an oral (dbol & anavar/winny or whatever else u can acquire)
    You need to stop giving advice! Holy sh*t - 500 is not anything close to a TRT dose. Ridiculous.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    Best advice you can get - do your research in multiple places not just this site and especially not this thread - here are a few ridiculous comments from this thread:

    1) Deca is weak - Deca has been a cornerstone of bodybuilding for 50 years, and it still works - plus it has been scientifically proven to be more anabolic than testosterone - stronger per mg
    2) Most of the gains people see on deca is while they are on test/tren - deca is rarely stacked with tren
    3 Deca sides can't be controlled- keep the test dose at trt level and deca will have very little/zero sides at 600mg per week in most people - it aromatizes at about 1/4 the rate of testosterone and when testosterone is kept in normal trt ranges prolactin is typically not an issue.
    4) Don't do Deca because it is highly suppressive - every AAS cycle of 8+ weeks is going to put your natural production to ZERO and deca doesn't give you negative levels so a 12 week test cycle is the same thing. (deca ester is longer though)
    5) Do and 8 week deca or EQ cycle - right when it kicks in you will be coming off the cycle - it's dumb
    I'm on the road and it's hard to respond but you've got to be kidding with these ridiculous claims?
  9. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post

    I'm on the road and it's hard to respond but you've got to be kidding with these ridiculous claims?
    Nope.

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    I feel as though this is warranted.

    Also Deca is more suppressive than test, end of conversation this is not even debatable. Being butt hurt about that fact is no reason to say anything else.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    Nope.
    Man, you've got to do your homework. Some things you said are reaosnable, but others are way off. When I get back and get on a computer I'll address this better.
  12. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post

    Man, you've got to do your homework. Some things you said are reaosnable, but others are way off. When I get back and get on a computer I'll address this better.
    We disagree about nandrlone, no doubt. I think it is garbage when used with high dose test, and hence has received a bad reputation. But remove supra levels of test and its great.

    BTW - you seem like a really good guy so I apologize if I attacked you a bit with my post. Looking forward to your thoughts when you get off the road....

  13. On the subject of suppression of natural test levels here is what a 200mg injection of npp or deca does. This is why we use hcg during deca/npp cycles. And yes it is more suppressive than test. Note how 200mg tanks test production.

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    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
  14. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    On the subject of suppression of natural test levels here is what a 200mg injection of npp or deca does. This is why we use hcg during deca/npp cycles. And yes it is more suppressive than test. Note how 200mg tanks test production.

    <img src="http://anabolicminds.com/forum/attachment.php?attachment****74 960"/>
    If you do 200mg of test, you will shut down. People use hcg during all sorts of cycles of substantial length, not just nandrolone cycles.

    200mg of deca per week is completely suppressive whereas 20mg of anavar per day is not completely suppressive. These are clinical doses and this is where the nandrolone suppression comes into play. It doesn't come into play with body building doses - all of your cycles will shut you down to zero - nandrolone or not. Hence the desire to run a test base.

    Tren shuts your ass down fast at very low doses - SD shuts me down to zero at 20mg per day. You can go on and on.

    Pulsing orals are a different story of course.....

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    If you do 200mg of test, you will shut down. People use hcg during all sorts of cycles of substantial length, not just nandrolone cycles.

    200mg of deca per week is completely suppressive whereas 20mg of anavar per day is not completely suppressive. These are clinical doses and this is where the nandrolone suppression comes into play. It doesn't come into play with body building doses - all of your cycles will shut you down to zero - nandrolone or not. Hence the desire to run a test base.

    Tren shuts your ass down fast at very low doses - SD shuts me down to zero at 20mg per day. You can go on and on.

    Pulsing orals are a different story of course.....
    Took two weeks to suppress natural test levels with 250mg of test c.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9394096
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards

  16. Thus test less suppressive than deca.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards

  17. Also I never claimed that test wasnt suppressive and I dont think you will find anyone who would.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
  18. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    Thus test less suppressive than deca.
    At bodybuilding doses everything you use is 100% suppressive. Your natural production gets turned off. So they are all equally suppressive. The difference appears at clinical doses.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    At bodybuilding doses everything you use is 100% suppressive. Your natural production gets turned off. So they are all equally suppressive. The difference appears at clinical doses.
    I disagree and I will follow up with, show me a single study that shows that.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
  20. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post

    I disagree and I will follow up with, show me a single study that shows that.
    200mg of test suppresses your natural production to zero! Tons of guys are on TRT at that dose and use HCG to keep the balls active. Are you serious? You think you are ruining any cycle that isn't shutting you down? Unless it is a pulse or 20 mg of var (or other low dose, short oral cycles) you are shut down. The tren cycle you are going to do - you don't think that will shut your ass down? 500 mg of test will shut you down.

    Why else run a pct?!!! Please tell us the magic cycle that doesn't shut you down - I will run it all the time and never need to PCT.

    And I dont waste my time posting studies on something so elementary - go do your own work...
  21. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    Thus test less suppressive than deca.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    Also I never claimed that test wasnt suppressive and I dont think you will find anyone who would.
    So what do you think - a cycle of 500mg test per week is only partially suppressive? You think you arent completely shut down on a test cycle?

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    You need to stop giving advice! Holy sh*t - 500 is not anything close to a TRT dose. Ridiculous.
    well its not exactly a bodybuilding cycle dose.. it falls in between where a high "custom" trt protocol ends and where a bodybuilding cycle base begins
  23. Stupes
    Stupes's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by abs322 View Post
    well its not exactly a bodybuilding cycle dose.. it falls in between where a high "custom" trt protocol ends and where a bodybuilding cycle base begins
    No - it's an old-school beginner cycle dose. And a pro body builder type cruise dose. But no real TRT doc would even approach that. The phony "HRT" clinics down in Fla - sure....

  24. Just got back. First, your comments on Peter are interesting and although we may disagree on his findings, I tend to agree with you that not everything he says is accurate. But we're not talking about him right now so I'll move on...
    Deca is supposed to be more anabolic than test (less androgenic) but I've read conflicting studies. One such study had a group of healthy males (I think 10 per group) given only test at 400mgs and nandrolone at 400mgs, once a week for I believe 10 weeks. None of the subjects knew what they were taking. At the end of the study strength increased in both groups but only the test group showed increased muscle size around the neck, chest and biceps. All subjects showed some increase in strength. The nandrolone group showed growth around the mid section and thighs, but not remarkable. I cite this study because it tends to support my experience as well as that of a doctor who used to be heavy into AAS and is now a TRT specialist. Peter's theory seemed to add some credence to this as well. And I am aware that there are other studies that seem to support the opposite. I could conduct an experiment with a couple of subjects to see what happens, using only deca and only using test, but the sample size would be so small that the findings would lack credibility.

    You shouldn't stack deca with tren, but many, many do. I'm not suggesting it's a good stacking, but it's like saying no one drinks and drives; they just do.

    I don't think prolactin is the issue, or the only issue running deca. There are guys who run deca and report no noticeable sides, although I believe the sides just weren't as severe. So those guys may run a TRT dose of test and feel that the trt dose was enough to control the sides, whereas it really didn't do anything because they weren't as sensitive to deca as others are. We know that deca has a very strong estrogenic effect that cannot be explained by the typical aromatization. Estren seems to be the culprit, a synthetic SERM introduced by nandrolone. The best study I could find on estren indicates that: "The recently described extranuclear mode of action of estren in bone has led to the definition of a novel class of mechanism-specific substances called ANGELS (Activator of NonGenotropic Estrogen-Like Signaling) (Manolagas et al., 2002). However, the present study indicates that estren rather, in a wider perspective, is a SERM with transcriptional activity." Also, it concludes that, "The effects of estren on bone and uterus are mediated via ERs, and the AR cannot replace the ERs for these effects. Furthermore, it is clear that estren has the capacity to exert genomic effects mediated via ERs." Granted, the study looked at the weight of the uterus and thymus, but the effects of estren compared to E2 were very well compared and estren does seem to have E2 sides. Of interest is that deca seems to produce estren with very little binding to the AR! So estren is being introduced not by the conventional aromatizing effect--which can be mediated--but by other means. Thus, I believe that deca produced estren is not adequately mediated by AIs or SERMs. Peter identified this but further research does give that theory credence. At least all of this supports my belief so I'm using it!

    I agree that if you take any AAS you are shutting yourself down. Totally agree. The problem with deca (besides the long ester of deconate) is the estren and it's longer lasting effect. A guy in this site, Morey I believe, starting out with NP and was shut down hard. So even the shorter ester didn't help.

    Having said all that, everyone reacts differently to AAS, especially when it comes to aromatization. I will always caution anyone to be careful before using nandralone or equip. Do I take my own advice? I pop Anadrol quite often, abuse tren, play with cheque drops and experiment with bolasterone. I'm no model to follow that's for sure. I just enjoy researching this stuff and playing around to see what happens. If proven wrong, which I have been, I will back off and not try to win for the sake of winning a point. You've made some good points and actually caused me to reaffirm my memory of studies by digging into my notes.

    Stay around, I enjoy your opposing views, even if I may not agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    Best advice you can get - do your research in multiple places not just this site and especially not this thread - here are a few ridiculous comments from this thread:

    1) Deca is weak - Deca has been a cornerstone of bodybuilding for 50 years, and it still works - plus it has been scientifically proven to be more anabolic than testosterone - stronger per mg
    2) Most of the gains people see on deca is while they are on test/tren - deca is rarely stacked with tren
    3 Deca sides can't be controlled- keep the test dose at trt level and deca will have very little/zero sides at 600mg per week in most people - it aromatizes at about 1/4 the rate of testosterone and when testosterone is kept in normal trt ranges prolactin is typically not an issue.
    4) Don't do Deca because it is highly suppressive - every AAS cycle of 8+ weeks is going to put your natural production to ZERO and deca doesn't give you negative levels so a 12 week test cycle is the same thing. (deca ester is longer though)
    5) Do and 8 week deca or EQ cycle - right when it kicks in you will be coming off the cycle - it's dumb

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Stupes View Post
    200mg of test suppresses your natural production to zero! .
    Without a doubt.
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