I'm planning my first trip to the dark side.

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    I'm planning my first trip to the dark side.


    Here's what I've got planned.

    Cycle

    Wk 1-10: Test E 250 mg 2x week
    Wk 1-4: Test P 100 mg EOD
    Wk 1-4: SD 20/20/20/20
    Wk 2-12: Aromasin 10 mg EOD

    Cycle Support

    Preload milk thistle and Coq10 and run them throughout. (I will probably drop milk thistle after I'm done with SD). Also a good multi and I take whey protein.

    PCT

    Wk 12-16: Nolva 50/50/25/25
    Wk 12-16: DAA 3/3/3/3
    Wk 12-16: Aromasin 10 mg EOD
    I will also start creatine back up for PCT

    My stats and history:

    32 yo
    180 lbs
    ~11% bf
    2 PH cycles under my belt
    Training for years, seriously for 2
    3500-4000 cals per day
    AVG of 200g protein/300g carb/125g fat per day
    Hardcore ectomorph

    I will take any critiques/thoughts/suggestions/opinions/flaming. I have everything listed on hand, but would like to hear your viewpoints before I cross over. Thanks in advance.....GO.

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    You might want a bit more of a cycle support during the SD
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    Why not skip the superdrol and just enjoy the **** out of that test? Honestly the drol would just be a kickstart which is already covered by the test p. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid)
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    Don't know why you'd want to run Nolva alongside Aromasin. I'd trash the SERM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Don't know why you'd want to run Nolva alongside Aromasin. I'd trash the SERM.
    What is your reasoning behind no SERM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    Why not skip the superdrol and just enjoy the **** out of that test? Honestly the drol would just be a kickstart which is already covered by the test p. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid)
    My reasoning tbh is that I had mild sides with SD before, so I figured most of those sides would be covered with a test base. So why not throw in an extra bulker and enjoy more gains provided I get more liver support?
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    Aromasin will block nearly all your E2. What is a SERM going to do? SERMs were made for women, not men. SERMs were made for women to control breast cancer. Men need to control E2 for a vast variety of reasons, to include prostrate health. In my opinion, a guy never has a need for a SERM, only an AI. Having said that, what's your reasoning for using a SERM with an powerful AI?

    Quote Originally Posted by druller655321 View Post
    What is your reasoning behind no SERM?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Aromasin will block nearly all your E2. What is a SERM going to do? SERMs were made for women, not men. SERMs were made for women to control breast cancer. Men need to control E2 for a vast variety of reasons, to include prostrate health. In my opinion, a guy never has a need for a SERM, only an AI. Having said that, what's your reasoning for using a SERM with an powerful AI?
    I was under the impression a SERM would help restart natural test production, perhaps I have more reading to do. As far as the aromasin with no SERM, when to you start it on cycle and how would you use it through PCT?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Aromasin will block nearly all your E2. What is a SERM going to do? SERMs were made for women, not men. SERMs were made for women to control breast cancer. Men need to control E2 for a vast variety of reasons, to include prostrate health. In my opinion, a guy never has a need for a SERM, only an AI. Having said that, what's your reasoning for using a SERM with an powerful AI?
    I disagree with this wholeheartedly well the no serm part. I have read several research papers on clomid being used for regaining natural test production.

    But you are entitled to your own opinion.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    I was under the impression you would want to wait until the ester clears to begin any SERM use. I believe the half life of test e is around 4-7 days. From what I've read most people recommend waiting two weeks after the last injection. I'm in the planning/research stage of my first pinning cycle and I still have a lot to learn so I don't have direct experience just some research so take it with a grain of salt. I am planning on running hcg as well throughout my cycle in order to help keep the testes producing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whaz View Post
    I was under the impression you would want to wait until the ester clears to begin any SERM use. I believe the half life of test e is around 4-7 days. From what I've read most people recommend waiting two weeks after the last injection. I'm in the planning/research stage of my first pinning cycle and I still have a lot to learn so I don't have direct experience just some research so take it with a grain of salt. I am planning on running hcg as well throughout my cycle in order to help keep the testes producing.
    Holy **** missed that one good catch
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    I have that taken into consideration with my schedule. But, still very interested in SERM vs no SERM. It's been pounded into my head since I've been here no SERM=no cycle. However DHs take on this makes a lot of sense
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    Quote Originally Posted by druller655321 View Post
    I have that taken into consideration with my schedule. But, still very interested in SERM vs no SERM. It's been pounded into my head since I've been here no SERM=no cycle. However DHs take on this makes a lot of sense
    I never PCT because I am on 100% of the time. When I think of controlling E2 I am concerned about prostrate health as well as all the other E2 related problems, ED, bloat, etc. I understand the theory that Clomid will help stimulate your natural test production by increasing the production of gonadotropins, but "if" I were cycling, I'd start using HCG (gonadotropins) from week one and continue at 250 iu into PCT. If you were to use an AI along with HCG, then there should be no need for a SERM. If you don't control E2 during cycle and stimulate natural test production with HCG then you start PCT with an up hill battle. If you insist on a SERM, Clomid is the best SERM. So my choice would be HCG and Aromasin, but there are many who swear by Clomid. Since I don't PCT I can't speak from experience.
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    I don't understand what you mean by waiting until the "esters clear." I think you mean to wait until the esters have cleaved off and test absorbed. Just remember that if the half life is 7 days, the whole life isn't 14 days. I would start PCT a week after my last injection because your E2 levels will already have started to peak...Your plan to use HCG throughout your cycle is perfect. Use 250iu EW, a day before your injection. You can use 500iu a week, but 250 will do. What's your expectation from a SERM?

    Quote Originally Posted by whaz View Post
    I was under the impression you would want to wait until the ester clears to begin any SERM use. I believe the half life of test e is around 4-7 days. From what I've read most people recommend waiting two weeks after the last injection. I'm in the planning/research stage of my first pinning cycle and I still have a lot to learn so I don't have direct experience just some research so take it with a grain of salt. I am planning on running hcg as well throughout my cycle in order to help keep the testes producing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post

    I never PCT because I am on 100% of the time. When I think of controlling E2 I am concerned about prostrate health as well as all the other E2 related problems, ED, bloat, etc. I understand the theory that Clomid will help stimulate your natural test production by increasing the production of gonadotropins, but "if" I were cycling, I'd start using HCG (gonadotropins) from week one and continue at 250 iu into PCT. If you were to use an AI along with HCG, then there should be no need for a SERM. If you don't control E2 during cycle and stimulate natural test production with HCG then you start PCT with an up hill battle. If you insist on a SERM, Clomid is the best SERM. So my choice would be HCG and Aromasin, but there are many who swear by Clomid. Since I don't PCT I can't speak from experience.
    Just to clarify, is that 250 iu per week or 2x per week? Also, if it is run for that long, what are the chances of desensitizing the leydigs cells? I'm very interested in getting a jump start on endogenous test production. Also, I read one of your posts that you achieved a test level of 6000, what compounds and doses got you there? (I promise I'm not thinking of going that route...yet!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by druller655321 View Post
    Just to clarify, is that 250 iu per week or 2x per week? Also, if it is run for that long, what are the chances of desensitizing the leydigs cells? I'm very interested in getting a jump start on endogenous test production. Also, I read one of your posts that you achieved a test level of 6000, what compounds and doses got you there? (I promise I'm not thinking of going that route...yet!)
    I was out of control when I reached 6000... 250iu per week will suffice, but there's nothing wrong with 500iu per week. Make sure you inject the day before your injection of test, not the day of or after. You should run no risk of desensitizing the leydig cells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I don't understand what you mean by waiting until the "esters clear." I think you mean to wait until the esters have cleaved off and test absorbed. Just remember that if the half life is 7 days, the whole life isn't 14 days. I would start PCT a week after my last injection because your E2 levels will already have started to peak...Your plan to use HCG throughout your cycle is perfect. Use 250iu EW, a day before your injection. You can use 500iu a week, but 250 will do. What's your expectation from a SERM?
    Yes that is what I meant. See I'm glad you brought that up because that's something that's been confusing me. If the test from the last injection has been absorbed by day 4-7 why wait until week two? I still have a lot to learn but I'm trying to start making sense of all this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    I never PCT because I am on 100% of the time. When I think of controlling E2 I am concerned about prostrate health as well as all the other E2 related problems, ED, bloat, etc. I understand the theory that Clomid will help stimulate your natural test production by increasing the production of gonadotropins, but "if" I were cycling, I'd start using HCG (gonadotropins) from week one and continue at 250 iu into PCT. If you were to use an AI along with HCG, then there should be no need for a SERM. If you don't control E2 during cycle and stimulate natural test production with HCG then you start PCT with an up hill battle. If you insist on a SERM, Clomid is the best SERM. So my choice would be HCG and Aromasin, but there are many who swear by Clomid. Since I don't PCT I can't speak from experience.
    The "theory" is not a theory it is fact, now if I was referring to broscience I would agree but this is not the case.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22951175
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22458540

    So many more I do not feel like putting the time in to find them.

    Also telling people to just run an AI for pct is irresponsible unless they are on trt. Also HCG inhibits natural production of LH, so you are telling people its great to boost their natty test levels just to have it crash again once HCG is dropped. This all makes no sense.

    Also you cant speak from experience, so this giving advise thing considering you are not going by the science or experience seems a bit flat.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    It's complicated.... Let’s say your ester is enanthate, which has a half life of about 10 days and you inject 200mgs. If you Google “half life” most will say that at day 10, you will have 100mgs left. The next half life—in 10 days—will leave you with 50mgs and so on, so every 10 days you cut the number in half. I do not believe that at all. There are some scientists that say, given the same scenario, that at day 10, you will have 100mgs left; we agree on that. But the next half life is at 5 days, not 10. So on the second 10th day, you’ll have about 5mgs left, not 100. My blood work supports the latter.

    I posted something on esters not too long ago so I won’t repeat myself, but don’t take the half life number too seriously. In regards to PCT, I think that most guys start two weeks after the last injection because they feel most of the test is gone and E2 is at its highest levels. I’d start PCT a week after my last injection if you follow the popular protocol.

    Again, if it were me, I would have been on HCG and Aromasin throughout my cycle, so I would have had good control over my E2 and natural production. If my last injection was at week 12, I would continue the Aromasin and HCG for maybe 3 weeks, into week 15 and cut it in half for the last week, week 16. This is not what others do, but 99% do what someone else does and never research to see what makes the most sense. Whether you follow traditional protocol, my recommendation or opt with no PCT, you will eventually recover so no one can confidently say one is better than the other unless there is blood work down to verify results.



    Quote Originally Posted by whaz View Post
    Yes that is what I meant. See I'm glad you brought that up because that's something that's been confusing me. If the test from the last injection has been absorbed by day 4-7 why wait until week two? I still have a lot to learn but I'm trying to start making sense of all this.
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    I totally disagree with you. But, instead of telling someone their advice is irresponsible, I tell them to research it and come up with their own conclusions. I may not be on PCT but I've been on a long time and have used HCG a long time. So there is some experience behind what I say. The more you research and actually experiment with actual blood work you'll find that many paradigms are out dated and and make no sense. So your advice is just that, your advice. Whether I think it's just a regurgitation of hearsay or sound advice, it doesn't matter. I'll keep what I think to myself. That's good advice if you're not on solid ground with what you say.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    The "theory" is not a theory it is fact, now if I was referring to broscience I would agree but this is not the case.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22951175
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22458540

    So many more I do not feel like putting the time in to find them.

    Also telling people to just run an AI for pct is irresponsible unless they are on trt. Also HCG inhibits natural production of LH, so you are telling people its great to boost their natty test levels just to have it crash again once HCG is dropped. This all makes no sense.

    Also you cant speak from experience, so this giving advise thing considering you are not going by the science or experience seems a bit flat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    The "theory" is not a theory it is fact, now if I was referring to broscience I would agree but this is not the case.
    To help you understand what a theory is. What you call "fact" is generally referred to as a scientific theory:
    " In modern science, the term 'theory' refers to scientific theories, a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature, made in a way consistent with scientific method, and fulfilling the criteria required by modern science. Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical support ('verify') or empirically contradict ('falsify') it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge, in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better defined by the word 'hypothesis'). Scientific theories are also distinguished from hypotheses, which are individual empirically testable conjectures, and scientific laws, which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions."
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    Quote Originally Posted by druller655321 View Post
    2 PH cycles under my belt
    This is definitely not your first trip to the dark side!

    You don`t qualify for opening "my first cycle" thread!


    I really enjoy real,newbie "first cycle" threads,and guys like you ruin it for me!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killler View Post
    This is definitely not your first trip to the dark side!

    You don`t qualify for opening "my first cycle" thread!

    I really enjoy real,newbie "first cycle" threads,and guys like you ruin it for me!
    LOL. I'm sorry. Would it make you feel better if I told you it was all lies. I'm actually 16 yo, 5'2, 273 lbs, 38% bf. I've been hitting the gym for 6 weeks and I've run a cycle of lmg and I'm ready to get super swole. Ill be doing 200mg tren a ED, 250 mg tren e EOD, and mast p 200 mg EOD all these for 24 weeks. Ill kickstart with dbol 100 mg ED for the first 14 weeks (don't wanna use dbol too long it's methylated after all). Don't try to tell me bout nutrition my mom makes sure I eat good. Dont try to talk me out of this cuz i know you're just jealous that I'll be bigger than you!!! PS I'm actually full of **** this time, no one attempt this cycle. PPS sad I actually have to qualify this comment.
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