How much do on-cycle AI's detract from gains? - AnabolicMinds.com

How much do on-cycle AI's detract from gains?

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    How much do on-cycle AI's detract from gains?


    If A-dex at 0.5 eod almost completely destroys estrogen, wouldnt that decrease a lot of the effect of somethin like dbol? And wouldnt it hurt gains from tren and test? I suppose slightly diminished gains would certainly be worth the huge reduction in sides tho..

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    spres444's Avatar
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    check this out

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...urnalcode=jcem


    I believe if you are going to take an on cycle AI ( which I believe in ), start at the lowest dose ( something like .5 e3d or 3 times a week ), and work your way up if you develop sides. I think the diminish in gains is slight,but unnoticeable unless you are worried about an extra 2-3 pounds ( relatively small amount when you consider the gains possible off of a 12 week Test cycle ) .
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    so AI is better than a SERM? i have always wondered that
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    I like using DHT's over AI. A-dex reduces estrogen production by 50%, so you should be fine. Letro is what you need to avoid unless you get gyno. Letro can reverse gyno, cause it stops 100% estrogen production. my .02
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    10 or 20mg of Nolva ED during the last couple weeks of a 16 week runs has always made me look better, than not taking it.
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    Aromasin will drive E1 and E2 down by around 85%, but it would be damn tough to completely crush estrogen. You only really limit your gains when you drive estrogen below normal levels. So just use Aromasin and be happy
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    u guys are all the s**t, damn helpful.

    yo gator .... what youre sayin is aromasin is better than adex because it suppresses the estrogen further (85%) than the adex does (50%), which is what we want, correct? But say i was takin dbol, where the gains are wet and estrogen accounts for some of the strength and size add-ons. With respect to blocking unwanted sides, wouldnt we still want some of that e1/e2 tho? or would the 15% e1/e2 left from the aromasin be better than the 50% left from the adex, bcuz you would still get sick gains but be more worry-free from gyno/mood swings, etc?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDizzle View Post
    u guys are all the s**t, damn helpful.

    yo gator .... what youre sayin is aromasin is better than adex because it suppresses the estrogen further (85%) than the adex does (50%), which is what we want, correct? But say i was takin dbol, where the gains are wet and estrogen accounts for some of the strength and size add-ons. With respect to blocking unwanted sides, wouldnt we still want some of that e1/e2 tho? or would the 15% e1/e2 left from the aromasin be better than the 50% left from the adex, bcuz you would still get sick gains but be more worry-free from gyno/mood swings, etc?
    Aromasin lowers both types of aromatase, without crushing either.
    Adex will crush one, but not lower the other enough.
    Letro will just crush both.
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    Aromasin raises Testosterone also.
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    thanx wet and gator. aromasin on the way. one last thing: why is crushing both completely a bad thing, unless gyno rears its ugly head?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDizzle View Post
    thanx wet and gator. aromasin on the way. one last thing: why is crushing both completely a bad thing, unless gyno rears its ugly head?
    Because you need some estrogen to function properly.
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    I believe that I read somewhere that in order for cell growth to occur, there needs to be a presence of estrogen... could be wrong here.
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    I only use adex .25 mg e3d and works well at controlling gyno for me. I am gyno prone and have no problem while using adex. E3d at .25mg is a pretty low dose but it's what I found to work for me. I have never needed more than that but everyone responds different. I have never noticed it to hinder gains, so either it won't at that dose or it is a minimal amount. Letro is better at reversing gyno once it's present.
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    Ha it won't hurt you gains unless you like gaining water and fat. I've used things like atd and even femera way back in the day to help lean out. I get stronger on both of them even without gear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDizzle View Post
    If A-dex at 0.5 eod almost completely destroys estrogen, wouldnt that decrease a lot of the effect of somethin like dbol? And wouldnt it hurt gains from tren and test? I suppose slightly diminished gains would certainly be worth the huge reduction in sides tho..
    Keep in mind that this is all guess work at best. First, Adex doesn not destroy E2. It lowers it, but does not destroy the levels. Maybe you're thinking of Tamoxifen?

    You need E2 for growth but have to keep it in balance; what that balance is, no one knows. Normally your E2 is let's say 30 and your test is 700. If you start a cycle and your test goes up to 5000, what's the proper E2 level? No one knows, period. There is guess work, but the best rule of thumb is to let it climb until you start to see sides, then hit an AI. I do bloodwork during a blasting cycle and watch it closely. In my case, using no AI at all, my test is at 6000 and my E2 remains at 32. I've had it rise to 235, but had no sides at all. So if you're not seeing any sides, don't use any AI at all. If you balance it right, you shouldn't see any loss while using an AI, provided you truly know what's going on by doing bloodwork.
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    Thanx again, esp to D-Hammer...how often would you say to get bloodwork, every 4 wks? Also, maybe a dumb question. I understand that PCT needs SERMS, but why not just use a SERM while on as well...my thinking is that they're milder than AI's, so it would let us keep gains and keep sides at bay, correct? Or would this be just giving your brain too many conflicting directions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    Keep in mind that this is all guess work at best. First, Adex doesn not destroy E2. It lowers it, but does not destroy the levels. Maybe you're thinking of Tamoxifen?
    Tamoxifen doesn't lower estrogen at all. It just outcompetes it at the ER in specific tissues (mostly breast). You must have meant Letro.
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    I need .5 mg of adex daily on just 500 mg of test,'so everyone is diff. I don't understand why people recommend not using one until you get sides tho. The only gains your losing are a few pounds of water, and the elevated blood pressure that goes with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator 87 View Post
    Tamoxifen doesn't lower estrogen at all. It just outcompetes it at the ER in specific tissues (mostly breast). You must have meant Letro.
    No, not at all. Tamoxifen blocks or activates estrogen's action on specific cells, blocking estrogen's action on breast cells. It's the standard anti-estrogen therapy for hormonal related breast cancer. Since he was concerned about gyno, I meant what I said, that perhaps he was thinking of Tamoxifen for preventing gyno. Then again, maybe he wasn't concerned about gyno but his overall E2 levels. If he's on cycle and has gyno under control why reduce E2 levels further?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    I need .5 mg of adex daily on just 500 mg of test,'so everyone is diff. I don't understand why people recommend not using one until you get sides tho. The only gains your losing are a few pounds of water, and the elevated blood pressure that goes with it.
    You say you need .5 Adex on 500mg, but how do you "know" that? Did you actually do a blood panel or does it just feel like you need it? When you reduce your E2, you lose more than water retention if you're not careful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitHammer View Post
    You say you need .5 Adex on 500mg, but how do you "know" that? Did you actually do a blood panel or does it just feel like you need it? When you reduce your E2, you lose more than water retention if you're not careful.
    No blood panel, but anything less than that and I get a gyno flare-up. I agree that you can decrease E2 too much, but this is not likely to occur on test, with adex at anything less than 1mg. I'm aware of the small decreases in plasma GH/IGF-1 associated with adex, but i'm convinced this effect is counteracted by the anabolics and training.

    My point was, I see so many threads where people advise noobs NOT to use an AI until you get symptoms, which I think is ignorant. Next thing you know, their nipples are swelled up, and their slamming mg's of adex and nolva to try and level out.

    We know that nolva has a profound negative effect on IGF-1, and i notice an immediate decrease in strength and glycogen retention when using high doses of nolva on cycle. However, this has not been the case with adex

    Better to start with a low dose such as .5 e3d to minimize the risk of symptoms for someone's first cycle, then to wait for them to occur.
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    Makes sense... I was just wondering how you dialed in. In regards to using an AI symptoms or not, I still feel until you know you need to control the E2, you should not take any AI. There's going to be a feeling in your nipples, but that doesn't mean you're going to develop gyno. Every time I blast hard I get that sensitivity, but never use an AI and I never had gyno. It's a judgement call either way, but I don't think opting to wait for the need for AI is any more ignorant than using it for no good reason. There are many ignorant practices out there that are much more serious than when to use an AI. But it's your call on AI and when to use it. We all like to think that our decision is the informaed one, that's why a newbie needs to listen to all sides and do some research before he makes what he feels is not an ignorant choice... I'm glad you found the combination that works best for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    No blood panel, but anything less than that and I get a gyno flare-up. I agree that you can decrease E2 too much, but this is not likely to occur on test, with adex at anything less than 1mg. I'm aware of the small decreases in plasma GH/IGF-1 associated with adex, but i'm convinced this effect is counteracted by the anabolics and training.

    My point was, I see so many threads where people advise noobs NOT to use an AI until you get symptoms, which I think is ignorant. Next thing you know, their nipples are swelled up, and their slamming mg's of adex and nolva to try and level out.

    We know that nolva has a profound negative effect on IGF-1, and i notice an immediate decrease in strength and glycogen retention when using high doses of nolva on cycle. However, this has not been the case with adex

    Better to start with a low dose such as .5 e3d to minimize the risk of symptoms for someone's first cycle, then to wait for them to occur.
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    Yeah I guess either way experience is best. I'm biased one way since I'm gyno prone. Masteron is in my future plan, so we'll see if I can avoid an AI with the addition of a dht based steroid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Movin_weight View Post
    Yeah I guess either way experience is best. I'm biased one way since I'm gyno prone. Masteron is in my future plan, so we'll see if I can avoid an AI with the addition of a dht based steroid.
    I just started using mast about two months ago. I love it.
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    Some very knowledgeable posters in this thread. I'm glad to see so many people now understanding the benefits of an AI while on cycle. I'm gyno prone so I always use Aromasin while on cycle. 12.5mg/ed when using an aromatizable compound such as Test. If I go over 750mg test/wk then I ramp up to 25mg/ed.

    And LOL@ Detroit's comment about lowering E2 too much. Very true to say the least. Libido is a very important thing to me as well.
  

  
 

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